djdaneh@pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes) (02/28/91)
In article <Feb.25.08.40.09.1991.1033@athos.rutgers.edu> ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk (K A Goatman) writes: >I know of one local church which is heavily committed to it. Can anyone >think of any examples *from the life of Jesus* which may throw some >light on what his response would be? >The only verse that sprung to mind is John 14v6 - 'I am the way ... >no one comes to the Father except by me' He also said that He had "other flocks to tend," and that "in My Father's house there are many Mansions." Further: He said "except by Me," not "except by the Church." Salvation is through Grace, not through church-membership. Recall the story of those who are saved and say in amazement, "We knew you not!" -- but Christ said that "as you have done to each of these, you have done also to Me." This is dangerously close to reopening the deadly dull Faith Vs Works argument: but I suggest that these passages at least _imply_ that salvation is possible outside of Christianity. I confess, however, that I am somewhat biased in this matter in that I am married to an atheist/agnostic (depending on when you ask her) and sincerely want to believe that she can be saved, since I know almost certainly that she won't be converted. From that day on, Ootai always called me "Mektangonagooligooli," an ancient Inuit word meaning "he who eats mice and pisses on his own luggage." The Roach
ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk (K A Goatman) (03/06/91)
>[What do you mean by the interfaith movement? Are we talking about >ecumenical action among Chistians, cooperation with non-Christians on >specific projects where we share goals, or a commitment to the idea >that "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere"? >--clh] Sorry that the posting was a bit unclear on this point. Of the options listed above it is the later which I believe sums it up. The Interfaith group here in Bath says that it exists to promote dialogue between different faiths; to show that religious dogmatism is man-made and to show there is a unity in all religions. It is certainly true that many of the world's problems can often be attributed to religious pressures or intolerance. Some people could no doubt argue that the world would be a far better place if religions were simply abolished (and there have been many threads on this theme!) The early church, though, were clearly rigorous in maintaining their religious purity. For instance, at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) there were arguments about whether the Jewish practices which were creeping into the church were acceptable. Judaism is surely the closest 'relative' to the Christian faith and yet there could not even be compromise with the Jews! Examples like this are easy to find. I am really looking for examples from the life and teaching of Jesus which might shed some light on the subject. Keith. ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk
liu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Peter T Liu) (03/06/91)
In article <Feb.25.08.40.09.1991.1033@athos.rutgers.edu> ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk (K A Goatman) writes: >How do you think Christians should respond to the ever increasing >interfaith movement? >[What do you mean by the interfaith movement? Are we talking about >ecumenical action among Chistians, cooperation with non-Christians on >specific projects where we share goals, or a commitment to the idea >that "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere"? >--clh] To find the answer to this question, let's turn to the Bible. You already mentioned one of several Scriptures which I was going to look up. >The only verse that sprung to mind is John 14v6 - 'I am the way ... >no one comes to the Father except by me' Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation. Instead, he said at Matthew 7:13-14: "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it," "whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." We see from the above that Jesus was quite blunt about the point. Also, Paul drives home the point that there is only one true faith. He writes at Ephesians 4:5: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Furthermore, please turn to John 8:42-47. There we read what Jesus thought of the religious leaders who pretended to be righteous but disrespected God. As to whether a Christian should support interfaith or ecumenical movements, I leave it up to the reader to decide. You have the Bible's word in front of you. Make your decisions based on the Bible. Here are some more Scriptures which may be of interest. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 "However, the inspire utterance says definitely that in later periods of time SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, (1) paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and the teachings of demons, by the (2) hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron;" "(3) forbidding to marry, (4) commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth." (Numbers, layout, all-caps mine; to bring out important details) Titus 1:16 "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobidient and not approved for good work of any sort." What I have quoted above is from the Bible; therefore, do not flame me. Let the reader use his (or her) own discernment. >Keith Goatman >ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk Peter T. Liu liu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu DISCLAIMER: Not Upenn's opinions
billy@stl.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (03/07/91)
In article <Feb.25.08.40.09.1991.1033@athos.rutgers.edu> ee8kag@gdt.bath.ac.uk (K A Goatman) writes:
*>I know of one local church which is heavily committed to it. Can anyone
*>think of any examples *from the life of Jesus* which may throw some
*>light on what his response would be?
*>The only verse that sprung to mind is John 14v6 - 'I am the way ...
*>no one comes to the Father except by me'
*He also said that He had "other flocks to tend," and that "in My Father's house
there are many Mansions."
*Further: He said "except by Me," not "except by the Church." Salvation is
*through Grace, not through church-membership.
*Recall the story of those who are saved and say in amazement, "We knew you not!"
*-- but Christ said that "as you have done to each of these, you have done also
*to Me." This is dangerously close to reopening the deadly dull Faith Vs Works
*argument: but I suggest that these passages at least _imply_ that salvation
*is possible outside of Christianity.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You cannot say this if you
accept John 14v6!!! There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, period!
*I confess, however, that I am somewhat biased in this matter in that I am
*married to an atheist/agnostic (depending on when you ask her) and sincerely
*want to believe that she can be saved, since I know almost certainly that she
*won't be converted.
Believe she can be saved for goodness sake! How do you know she
won't be converted? Do you know the lords idea for that person? By saying
you don't think she can be converted you are saying that God can't do
everything! Gods knows what it would take to convert her, he could do it.
You must continue to pray to that end!
From that day on, Ootai always called me "Mektangonagooligooli,"
an ancient Inuit word meaning "he who eats mice and pisses on
his own luggage."
The Roach
[You might want to look at I Cor 7:14 in this context. --clh]djdaneh@pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes) (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.7.03.24.26.1991.21614@athos.rutgers.edu> billy@stl.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) writes: --quoting moi-- >...these passages at least _imply_ that salvation *is possible >outside of Christianity. > You cannot say this if you >accept John 14v6!!! There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, period! First of all, please include the quotes you reference. Not all of us have Bibles at our desks. Second, I didn't say "outside of Christ," I said "outside of Christianity." I don't deny that all salvation is through Christ; I wonder what "through Christ" actually means. Does it mean perfect obedience to Christ? Then none of use are saved, not one. Does it mean membership in some specific Church? Which one, and how do you know? Does it mean membership in *some* Church? Or some specific profession of faith in {God|Christ|the Pope|some specific Church|some specific minister| some specific liturgy|etc.}? And again -- how do you know which one? I don't know what it means and I suggest that none of us knows what it means. I know that Christ will save whom He will save; but I don't know what His criteria are. I know what he said about it -- and the single point he returned to most often, seems to have been the law of Love. Will Christ save only Christians? Maybe. But I know that saying He can only save people who do or think or believe X is to impose limits on omnipotence. He can save Satanists, if He chooses. One thing Christianity must never be is an excuse to feel smug about being saved. As soon as we feel that, it's stopped being true. > Believe she can be saved for goodness sake! How do you know she >won't be converted? Because I know her far better than you do. By direct intervention from God, she could be converted; anything less would go right by her "show me" attitude. She thinks God is *irrelevant*. An attitude I can't comprehend: but I know what it means to her. >Do you know the lords idea for that person? By saying >you don't think she can be converted you are saying that God can't do >everything! By saying she can't be saved unless she is converted, you are saying that God can't do everything! >[You might want to look at I Cor 7:14 in this context. --clh] Yes. Other individuals have also referred me to this. I want to thank them publically, and you too, Charles. I went to a bookstore at lunchtime and looked it up (as I said, I don't keep a Bible at my office): and found myself weeping tears of joy. Thank you all. Dan'l