tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/01/91)
In article <Feb.26.04.46.22.1991.13046@athos.rutgers.edu> lrb@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Larry Bruns) writes: >PS - I once heard that when the first Protestant Christians were deciding >which books to include in the new Protestant Bible (they threw out many of the >books - mostly now called the Apocrypha - which are still today included in >the Catholic Bible), Martin Luther was against including Revelations. But >he was outvoted by his peers (Protestants have always tended to be a rather >democratic lot!) Too bad. If his peers had listened to him, maybe today >fewer Protestants would be wasting their talents and their time on doing huge >amounts of research on end-times prophecies. It was my understanding that the only difference between the books of the Roman Catholic Bible and the "Protestant Bible" was the elimination of books from the "Old Testament" which brought the "Protestant Bible" into line with the Jewish Bible which had solidified *after* the Christian Bible. (While the Jews had many "books" only certain were placed in the large composite volume.) As reformers sought to bring the church back to its roots, the Old Testament was amended, 5 sacraments were elimimated, (since Jesus never participated in them). etc... Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (03/01/91)
In article <Feb.26.04.46.22.1991.13046@athos.rutgers.edu> lrb@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Larry Bruns) writes: >................Also, I believe that they have always predicted that only >144,000 souls would go to heaven. Originally they assumed that ALL Jehovah's >Witnesses would be among that 144,000. But as time went by and the number of >JV's worldwide surpassed 144,000, this prediction also became an embarrassment >to them, since this meant that now at least *some* JV's were not going to >heaven. > >[I think there are some legends here. (1) While JW's have a special >role for 144,000 people, I don't think they are claimed to be the only >ones that are going to be saved....... > --clh] The moderater is correct about legend here. JW's have never thought that only 144,000 persons were to find favor with God. We have simply seen that the Bible explains that heaven isn't the only destination for those whom God favors. Whereas mainstream Christianity teaches their followers that *all* the good will go to heaven, the Bible teaches that many of those who are saved will enjoy life forever on a earth. A few references to begin the discussion: Psa 37:9,10,29 Wicked will be no more, the righteous will possess the earth and live forever on it. Math. 5:5 The righteous will inherit the earth Rev 21:1-4 Speaks of a new *earth* Do all good people go to heaven? -------------------------------- Acts 2:34 David didn't Math 11:11 may indicate that John didn't John 3:13 no man has ascended into heaven Good persons such as David will be resurrected to live here in the peaceful new earth mentioned at 2 Pet 3:13 "a new earth in which righteousness will dwell If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Gen 1:26 God's purpose for him was caretaker of the earth, no mention of going to heaven Gen 2:16,17 Not God's purpose for them to someday die, Death was a punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven. Obedience would have been rewarded by the continued life, eternal life, in the Paradise that God had given them. Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future? -------------------------------------------------------- Psa 37:11 will possess the earth and have exquisite delight in the abundance of peace Rev 21:1-4 in this new earth - no tears, mourning, pain, or death Mic 4:3,4 no war, complete security Will some Christians go to heaven? ---------------------------------- John 14:2,3 Yes, Jesus says his faithful apostles would, but doesn't mention how many others How many will go to heaven? --------------------------- Luke 12:32 a *little* flock Rev 14:1-3 144,000 bought *from* the earth What will those who go to heaven do there? ------------------------------------------ Rev 20:6 will rule as kings and priest with Christ 1Cor 6:2 will judge the world Rev 5:10 will rule over the earth Hope this clears our position with regards to the number 144,000 Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep
news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) (03/06/91)
In <Mar.1.02.41.53.1991.15455@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >It was my understanding that the only difference between the books of >the Roman Catholic Bible and the "Protestant Bible" was the elimination >of books from the "Old Testament" which brought the "Protestant Bible" >into line with the Jewish Bible which had solidified *after* the >Christian Bible. (While the Jews had many "books" only certain were >placed in the large composite volume.) Actually, as I recall, seven of the New Testament books were excluded by one or another Reformation leader. The Epistle of James was a particular target, with its emphasis on the importance of works. I may hunt up a complete list of the New Testament books which were attacked. (I've always found the fact that Protestants allowed the Jewish reaction to Christianity to determine the Protestant choice of books for the Old Testament a remarkably strange occurrence.) > As reformers sought to bring the >church back to its roots, the Old Testament was amended, 5 sacraments >were elimimated, (since Jesus never participated in them). etc... Can you explain that a little more clearly for me? It seems like Christ participated in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (he forgave sins a lot, and commissioned his disciples to do so), Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders (commissioning of ministers), baptism (actually, the direct evidence is that His disciples baptized under His supervision, but He certainly directed them to baptize), and the Eucharist. Confirmation and matrimony are separate cases, but both based on His teaching. What's the Protestant understanding of the sacraments? I didn't think they all agreed on the number of sacraments. But there seem to be particular problems with any claim that five sacraments were eliminated because Christ didn't participate in them. Leo Chouinard [There are certainly NT books that some Reformers are more enthusiastic about than others, but I think it's going too far to say that they were excluded. Luther called James a "strawy epistle", but it still appears in the German Bible he translated. I believe it's incorrect to say that other other 5 sacraments were excluded because Christ didn't participate in them. As you point out, in at least some cases he did. It's hard to speak for all Protestants, but generally the definition of a sacrament is that it is a symbolic act which presents the Word in a visible form, which Christ ordained. Christ certainly forgave people. He did lots of other things as well. That doesn't mean that every act in his life turns into a sacrament. Why not foot-washing? Baptism and communion are distinguished as two things that he specifically told the Church to celebrate. They are also distinguished as being primarily symbolic actions. E.g. the Protestant view of marriage is that Jesus certainly endorsed it, and it is a holy thing. However it is primarily itself, not an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. Marriage is just as appropriate for non-Christians, which one would not expect of a Christian sacrament. In fact there's a certain arbitrariness to this distinction, and I believe it was recognized at the time. Luther said at one point that he wasn't so concerned with whether something (I think confession, though I may have the wrong sacrament) was considered a sacrament as whether it was carried out in a Scriptural manner. Part of this is not an issue of theology, but an issue of approach. I've found Greeley's comments on the nature of Catholicism very useful in helping me understand the distinction. Catholicism sees the world sacramentally. It's not just the 7 formal sacraments, but the whole package of saints, Mary, and in fact the role of the Church itself. It's a whole approach, which Charles Williams refers to as the way of affirmation of images (using the term "image" in a very broad sense). Protestants follow the way of rejection of images, seeing no image as sufficient to do justice to God, and emphasizing a direct relationship with God. Both approaches have their dangers, and at times both sides have succumbed to those dangers. --clh]
smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie (03/06/91)
[I part of a response on JW beliefs, Steve Peterson said > Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future? > Psa 37:11 will possess the earth and have exquisite delight in the > abundance of peace > Rev 21:1-4 in this new earth - no tears, mourning, pain, or death > Mic 4:3,4 no war, complete security --clh] You say that on earth there will no be death. What will happen with overpopulation? Or the people on earth will not have children anymore? I say "you say" because this is your interpretation, giving literal meaning to a quotation. Thank you. Socrates Maanian [smaanian@cs.tcd.ie]
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.6.00.17.31.1991.24744@athos.rutgers.edu> smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie writes: >[I part of a response on JW beliefs, Steve Peterson said >> Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future? >> Psa 37:11 will possess the earth and have exquisite delight in the >> abundance of peace >> Rev 21:1-4 in this new earth - no tears, mourning, pain, or death >> Mic 4:3,4 no war, complete security >--clh] > >You say that on earth there will no be death. What will happen with >overpopulation? Or the people on earth will not have children anymore? > >I say "you say" because this is your interpretation, giving literal meaning to >a quotation. > >Thank you. > >Socrates Maanian [smaanian@cs.tcd.ie] Hi Socrates! Thank-you for reading and responding to my previous post. On the subject of Death: ------------------------- At Isaiah 25:8 the prophetic promise is make that God "will actually swallow up death for ever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces." The sting producing death is sin (1Cor 15:56), and thus all having sin and its accompanying imperfection have death working in their bodies. (Ro 7:13, 23, 24) The abolition of death, therefore, would require the abolition of that which produces death: sin. By the removal of the last trace of sin from obedient mankind, the authority of death will be abolished and death itself will be destroyed, and this is to be accomplished during the riegn of Christ. (1Co 15:24-26) Thereby death, brought upon the human reace by Adam's transgression, "will be no more." (Ro 5:12; Re 21:3, 4) Its destruction is figuratively likened to its being hurled into a "lake of fire." Re 20:14 On the subject of over-population. ---------------------------------- Wouldn't the end of death cause over population? God's command to Adam & Eve was to multiply and fill the earth. (Gen 1:28). We see that God's desire was to *fill* the earth, not *over-fill* the earth. As an illustration, if God were to tell someone to fill a glass with water, it is obvious that he wouldn't mean to continue filling the glass until it over-fills causing a big mess. Likewise, it isn't God's desire to overfill the earth causing a big mess. In this "new earth", when the time comes that the earth would become overfilled, there would be some mechanism to prohibit overpopulation. The Bible doesn't give the specifics to what this would be. I have heard some persons *speculate* that perhaps fertility could drop off, or that some persons may travel to other planets. But this is *speculation* since the Bible doesn't explicitly say. How many people could the earth accomodate? Currently there are about 5 Billion persons living on the earth. It has been estimated that over the last 6,016 years since Adam was created there have been a total of about 15 Billion persons that have ever lived. There is about 30 Billion acres of available land here on earth. This is 2 acres per person. But some might say: You are neglecting the fact that much of the land is unusable, being desert. The Bible describes the time when this unusable land will blossom. (Isa 35:1) I hope that this brief answer helps with your questions. It certainly isn't everything that could be presented on this topic. Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep