[soc.religion.christian] DEATH & HELL - INTRODUCTION

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (03/09/91)

I do not believe in a separable conscious soul that goes to heaven or  to  a
hell  already  lit.   Rather  the  dead 'sleep' until the resurrection, time
passing in the twinkling of an eye.  In that sense both Adam and Luther  get
to  the ressurection in the same short length of time.  In that sense we die
and then go to heaven.  Also the final lake of fire cannot be quenched until
it  has  utterly consumed with everlasting results that totally rule out any
hope of re- incarnation for Satan.

This first post is simply an introduction and I prove nothing.

So, why this introduction?  You see, it surprises me how often people refuse
to talk about this topic, insisting adamantly as follows - "Dave, I know you
are saved and I know I am saved, so what does it matter!"  Believe  that  if
you  please,  and yet, for the sake of your ministry at least, here are some
reasons why the topic is still important to you:

     As sons so often emulate their fathers so Christians so  often  emulate
     what they think God is like.

     Distorted understanding of the plan of Salvation - Luther, for example,
     found  the doctrines of hell and purgatory to be incompatible with what
     the Bible said about Justification.  He and a lot  of  other  Reformers
     proclaimed "soul sleep".

     Robert Ingersoll told his father "If that is  what  God  does,  I  hate
     Him."   He  became one of the world's best known infidels of many years
     ago.  Even today people walk out of Christian churches determined never
     to return because of hell fire sermons.

     And of course many come trembling into church out of  a  fear  of  what
     hell  will be like.  The gospel does not need hell fire to scare people
     to Jesus.

     I meet those who have left Christianity to  become  agnostics  or  join
     eastern  religions  who point to the doctrines of hell as playing a big
     part in their exit.

     Some invent the most horrible of hells.  The more horrible a hell  they
     can  create  the  more certain they are that God will allow everyone to
     escape. This is their refuge and their salvation.   Dispose  of  tradi-
     tional  hell  and  much  of  universalism and restoration theology eva-
     porate.

     Many religions offer after death escape  routes.   A  typical  argument
     that  I  have indeed heard ~ "as a mainline Christian I would be doomed
     to hell, but my religion offers me some form of heaven even if I get  a
     lot worse".

     Some insist it can be 'proven' from the Bible both  ways.   I  am  told
     that  Swendal  'proves'  this in one of his books.  But this suggests a
     rather unreliable Bible.  Agnostics and  Aetheists  love  to  use  this
     apparent confusion to discredit the Bible.

     A certainty about the state-of-the-dead  is  protective  armor  against
     spiritualism  and  there are so many forms of "Christian Spiritualism".
     Some freely admit to being both  spiritualist  and  Christian.   Others
     insist  they  are not spiritualists and yet talk about the same sort of
     spirit experiences.

     Too many people are deceived by the return of  a  dead  loved  one  who
     later turns out to be a demon.

     Eastern re-incarnation & New  Age  theology  are  rapidly  infiltrating
     Christian churches.

     If the saintly dead have a conscious soul  in  heaven;  then  it  makes
     sense  to  call  on  these 'souls' for help, sympathy and intercession.
     Else, we can turn only to Jesus.

     Perhaps you will come to appreciate a need to study the much  forgotten
     and  neglected  Old  Testament  when  you see how essential it is to an
     understanding of the NT.

     My Bible warns that Satan and his host will become more and more active
     in their manifestations as time goes on - even appearing as angels from
     heaven. Everyone whose faith is not firmly established upon the Word of
     God will be deceived and overcome.

Simply dumping a fist full of proof texts on you would be less than convinc-
ing.  There  is  a lot of territory to cover as the fabric of traditionalist
views make up a very large quilt.  And so  I  have  organized  this  into  a
series  of  posts.  Any one of these posts, on their own, will be incomplete
and less than convincing.  I will be posting these basically one a day.  The
history  post is pretty much self contained and so immediate responses would
make sense.  But for the rest I'd suggest you hold your fire - pun  intended
-  until  I  am  done  because a soon to follow post may well deal with your
objection.  Comments, discussion, rebuttal are then welcome.  Here  is  what
is coming:

DEATH & HELL-1 - HISTORY
DEATH & HELL-2 - SOULS in the GRAVE
DEATH & HELL-3 - OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCES
DEATH & HELL-4 - SOUL SLEEP
DEATH & HELL-5 - RICH MAN & LAZARUS
DEATH & HELL-6 - ASBESTOS WICKED
DEATH & HELL-7 - THIEF ON CROSS
DEATH & HELL-8 - ESCAPE HATCHES
DEATH & HELL-9 - SOUL PRISONS?
DEATH & HELL-10 - NOT STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN
DEATH & HELL-11 - was it SAMUEL who talked to SAUL?

I am not rising to the defence of my church but  rather  presenting  my  own
personal  study.   If this study had lead me astray of my church's teachings
on the subject, then so it would have been.  The Bible is my creed and final
authority.  And I am a Seventh-Day-Adventist.

My experience with s.r.c., at this site, is that when  I  post  something  I
often get email responses within a couple of days.  Then a week or two later
it finally shows up here.  What you post in response could take a long  time
getting  to  me.   So,  please  do me a favor.  If you post something please
email me a copy. Be clear that you have posted it to s.r.c. so  that  I  can
have  the  option  of quoting you in a response to s.r.c., if I choose to do
so.  Some may prefer to send email and not post to s.r.c.  If  you  directly
email me a question or discussion - clearly stating that you want your ques-
tion quoted and posted along with my reply - I'll do so.

The Bible says that ALL scripture is for us to study  and  we  must  compare
scripture  with  scripture.  Let us do that.  But first a little bit of his-
tory.

Dave (David E. Buxton)
From the Silicon RainForest of the Northwest