davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (03/09/91)
I do not believe in a separable conscious soul that goes to heaven or to a hell already lit. Rather the dead 'sleep' until the resurrection, time passing in the twinkling of an eye. In that sense both Adam and Luther get to the ressurection in the same short length of time. In that sense we die and then go to heaven. Also the final lake of fire cannot be quenched until it has utterly consumed with everlasting results that totally rule out any hope of re- incarnation for Satan. This first post is simply an introduction and I prove nothing. So, why this introduction? You see, it surprises me how often people refuse to talk about this topic, insisting adamantly as follows - "Dave, I know you are saved and I know I am saved, so what does it matter!" Believe that if you please, and yet, for the sake of your ministry at least, here are some reasons why the topic is still important to you: As sons so often emulate their fathers so Christians so often emulate what they think God is like. Distorted understanding of the plan of Salvation - Luther, for example, found the doctrines of hell and purgatory to be incompatible with what the Bible said about Justification. He and a lot of other Reformers proclaimed "soul sleep". Robert Ingersoll told his father "If that is what God does, I hate Him." He became one of the world's best known infidels of many years ago. Even today people walk out of Christian churches determined never to return because of hell fire sermons. And of course many come trembling into church out of a fear of what hell will be like. The gospel does not need hell fire to scare people to Jesus. I meet those who have left Christianity to become agnostics or join eastern religions who point to the doctrines of hell as playing a big part in their exit. Some invent the most horrible of hells. The more horrible a hell they can create the more certain they are that God will allow everyone to escape. This is their refuge and their salvation. Dispose of tradi- tional hell and much of universalism and restoration theology eva- porate. Many religions offer after death escape routes. A typical argument that I have indeed heard ~ "as a mainline Christian I would be doomed to hell, but my religion offers me some form of heaven even if I get a lot worse". Some insist it can be 'proven' from the Bible both ways. I am told that Swendal 'proves' this in one of his books. But this suggests a rather unreliable Bible. Agnostics and Aetheists love to use this apparent confusion to discredit the Bible. A certainty about the state-of-the-dead is protective armor against spiritualism and there are so many forms of "Christian Spiritualism". Some freely admit to being both spiritualist and Christian. Others insist they are not spiritualists and yet talk about the same sort of spirit experiences. Too many people are deceived by the return of a dead loved one who later turns out to be a demon. Eastern re-incarnation & New Age theology are rapidly infiltrating Christian churches. If the saintly dead have a conscious soul in heaven; then it makes sense to call on these 'souls' for help, sympathy and intercession. Else, we can turn only to Jesus. Perhaps you will come to appreciate a need to study the much forgotten and neglected Old Testament when you see how essential it is to an understanding of the NT. My Bible warns that Satan and his host will become more and more active in their manifestations as time goes on - even appearing as angels from heaven. Everyone whose faith is not firmly established upon the Word of God will be deceived and overcome. Simply dumping a fist full of proof texts on you would be less than convinc- ing. There is a lot of territory to cover as the fabric of traditionalist views make up a very large quilt. And so I have organized this into a series of posts. Any one of these posts, on their own, will be incomplete and less than convincing. I will be posting these basically one a day. The history post is pretty much self contained and so immediate responses would make sense. But for the rest I'd suggest you hold your fire - pun intended - until I am done because a soon to follow post may well deal with your objection. Comments, discussion, rebuttal are then welcome. Here is what is coming: DEATH & HELL-1 - HISTORY DEATH & HELL-2 - SOULS in the GRAVE DEATH & HELL-3 - OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCES DEATH & HELL-4 - SOUL SLEEP DEATH & HELL-5 - RICH MAN & LAZARUS DEATH & HELL-6 - ASBESTOS WICKED DEATH & HELL-7 - THIEF ON CROSS DEATH & HELL-8 - ESCAPE HATCHES DEATH & HELL-9 - SOUL PRISONS? DEATH & HELL-10 - NOT STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN DEATH & HELL-11 - was it SAMUEL who talked to SAUL? I am not rising to the defence of my church but rather presenting my own personal study. If this study had lead me astray of my church's teachings on the subject, then so it would have been. The Bible is my creed and final authority. And I am a Seventh-Day-Adventist. My experience with s.r.c., at this site, is that when I post something I often get email responses within a couple of days. Then a week or two later it finally shows up here. What you post in response could take a long time getting to me. So, please do me a favor. If you post something please email me a copy. Be clear that you have posted it to s.r.c. so that I can have the option of quoting you in a response to s.r.c., if I choose to do so. Some may prefer to send email and not post to s.r.c. If you directly email me a question or discussion - clearly stating that you want your ques- tion quoted and posted along with my reply - I'll do so. The Bible says that ALL scripture is for us to study and we must compare scripture with scripture. Let us do that. But first a little bit of his- tory. Dave (David E. Buxton) From the Silicon RainForest of the Northwest