conan@twinkies.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (02/27/91)
In article <Feb.19.00.56.33.1991.19241@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >During Sunday school, we talked about confessing our sins during prayer. >One of the topics that came up in this regard was what is sin. Several >folks saw sin as being the specific acts that we do that are wrong. A >few said that sin is what motivates us to do what we do. One person >pointed out that you can do good for all the wrong reasons and felt that >this was as much sin as doing something like stealing. I'd like to start a tangent from this discussion. Next month, I am giving a talk in my parish on penance and the (Catholic) sacrament of reconcilation (formerly known as the sacrament of penance / confession). As you may or may not know, this is one of the least utilized sacraments in the Catholic Church today. I am not so arrogant as to believe I can reverse this trend single-handedly; I would be satisfied if I could come to understand forgiveness and reconciliation better myself, and then share this with others. I would appreciate a variety of perspectives, both Catholic and non-Catholic. You can either post them, or e-mail them to the address below. If there is any interest, I will post my talk, or an outline of it, next month. Thank you in advance, Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO e-mail: conan@math.berkeley.edu [This seems consistent with Protestant experience. Of course most Protestants never had confession, but I think in many ways confession was analogous to what Protestants call "church discipline". They both are based on the concept that the church is responsible for guiding members in their relationship with God. Beginning in the 18th Cent., at least in the U.S., it became increasingly difficult to get most congregations to accept church discipline. Some groups still practice it, but I think it's unusual. Although this isn't quite the same thing as the Catholic sacrament, I think the general congregational desire to avoid detailed clerical supervision of their lives is the same. It's hard to carry out church discipline without being perceived as being either busybodies or people interested in control. It can be done -- my home church recently used church disipline with a church employee and really seems to have helped a difficult situation. But most Americans just aren't prepared to accept it. To resist this tendency, I would think it would require very well-trained clegy, informed lay involvement in setting the groundrules, and very careful congregational education. --clh]
dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (03/06/91)
In article <Feb.27.03.51.04.1991.13587@athos.rutgers.edu>, conan@twinkies.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) writes: > I'd like to start a tangent from this discussion. Next month, I am > giving a talk in my parish on penance and the (Catholic) sacrament of > reconcilation (formerly known as the sacrament of penance / > confession). As you may or may not know, this is one of the least > utilized sacraments in the Catholic Church today. I am not so arrogant > as to believe I can reverse this trend single-handedly; I would be satisfied > if I could come to understand forgiveness and reconciliation better myself, > and then share this with others. Talking this over with friends, one aspect of the sacrament of reconciliation as it is practiced today, is that it tends not to be as penance-oriented as it has been in the past: rather than the priest simply saying, "say two Our Fathers and three Hail Marys and have a nice day," there's more a tendency for the priest (at least younger ones) to instead discuss your problems with you. In our parish, face-to-face (as opposed to being in the dangerous dark box) confession is gaining adherents although I'm not sure how much of this is related to the personality of the priests. -dh
cms@gatech.edu (03/11/91)
In article <Mar.5.23.05.29.1991.22704@athos.rutgers.edu>, dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) writes: > In article <Feb.27.03.51.04.1991.13587@athos.rutgers.edu>, conan@twinkies.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) writes: >> I'd like to start a tangent from this discussion. Next month, I am >> giving a talk in my parish on penance and the (Catholic) sacrament of >> reconcilation (formerly known as the sacrament of penance / >> confession). As you may or may not know, this is one of the least >> utilized sacraments in the Catholic Church today. I am not so arrogant >> as to believe I can reverse this trend single-handedly; I would be satisfied >> if I could come to understand forgiveness and reconciliation better myself, >> and then share this with others. > > Talking this over with friends, one aspect of the sacrament of > reconciliation as it is practiced today, is that it tends not to > be as penance-oriented as it has been in the past: rather than > the priest simply saying, "say two Our Fathers and three Hail > Marys and have a nice day," there's more a tendency for the > priest (at least younger ones) to instead discuss your problems > with you. In our parish, face-to-face (as opposed to being in the > dangerous dark box) confession is gaining adherents although I'm > not sure how much of this is related to the personality of the > priests. Although I had some Fathers that would say "two Our Fathers and three Hail Marys," growing up, I had at least one priest (a monsignor, I think, but I couldn't really tell through the "window") who encouraged me to read Bible passages related to my problems. Going to Confession is, in some ways, like free counseling sessions with a qualified therapist. I've heard Protestants say they talk to their pastors and he gives them Bible passages to read, so Confession and whatever it is Protestants call it aren't so different after all. As an adult, in the Episcopal Church, I found face-to-face Confessions a little disconcerting at first, but I've gotten used to it. Besides, in the Roman Church today, they have "Reconciliation Rooms" that Episcopalians have always had; though I suspect lack of facilities is the more practical Episcopalian reason :-). My priest today (Episcopalian) invariably gives me Bible passages to read; another priest I've been to see, who is Anglo-Catholic, gave me no penance at all. Another priest also gave me no penance. This was the first time I had not received penance so, assuming she forgot, I reminded her, and she said, "Oh, I'm not real big on penance. Tell you what. For you penance, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in these troubles and pray about them, etc." I thought that was a good penance! I told my mother-in-law once, because we were talking about something related, that I was reading this passage for penance; before I could expound on it, she said, "Oh, well, _we_ believe that we should read the Bible because we love Jesus and Jesus loves us, and not for punishment." I tried to explain to her that penance isn't punishment, it's a matter of reconciliation with God, but to no avail. As I've said in the past, I think Protestants have their own version of Confession, they just don't call it that, and don't ritualize it. If my mother-in-law had said her pastor had recommended a particular Bible passage to her, and I had said, "Oh, well, _we_ believe that we should read the Bible because we love Jesus and Jesus loves us, and not for punishment because of something we said to our pastor," I'm sure she would have proceeded to explain to me that it wasn't punishment, etc. We consider Reconciliation with God a Sacrament; perhaps Protestants don't because they think Reconciliation is a one-sided affair on the part of God? I realize Martin Luther had a change of heart about the Sacrament but I forget why....Does anyone remember? At any rate, in the Episcopal Church, I've found the Sacrament to be more meaningful to me in some ways _because_ of the lack of an assembly-line. I don't feel a need to "get there early" before the priest gets tired or Mass is about to start. On the other hand, people with that need can always simply make an appointment with the priest, as is already necessary in the Episcopal Church. To David: Have you read the Rite of Reconciliation in the Book of Common Prayer? I thought you had picked one up.....It's found on pages 447 -- 452 (like everything else in the Prayer Book, there's a Form I and Form II). It's called "The Reconciliation of a Penitent." Note also that this is different from the public "Penitential Orders" located on pages 319 and 351. The first time I confessed to an Episcopalian priest, I couldn't concentrate on the words in the book. Confession is such an oral tradition in the Roman Catholic Church that I just said, "Uh, can we just do it the Roman Way?" He said, "Piece of cake." :-) > -dh -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.