lae@eddie.mit.edu (Larry Enos x5572) (03/07/91)
I too am `intrigued' by the story of the resurrection of the dead man who was cast into the tomb of Elisha. I have no explanation for this miracle except to say that it is a wonderful demonstration of the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit, of which Elisha had been given a double portion. But it does not justify the practice of praying to or otherwise venerating saints. If we examine the story closely, it is clear that no one prayed to Elisha to raise the dead man. Nor does the bible say that Elisha prayed for him to be raised. Likewise, the story does not tell us that afterward the witnesses of the miracle began to venerate Elisha because of it. Instead they ran away in fear. Therefore, from this account, we can only conclude that the Spirit of God was in that place, and that, where the Spirit of God is, there is life. Why should anyone point to this incident as proof of the correctness of praying to saints? Perhaps because Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that such signs are an indication that a dead saint is worthy of veneration. Yet, if this is true, why is it that this practice was not incorporated into later Jewish religious practice? Why is there no recommendation in later biblical or Talmudic texts to venerate or pray to Elisha or the other OT saints? Similarly, why didn't the apostles in their writings advise us to pray to the OT saints or, for that matter, to the dead NT saints? (After all, Stephen and James the son of Zebedee had already died by the time the apostles wrote their epistles.) Surely if this practice is useful for us to grow in Christ, the apostles would have mentioned it at least once. They frequently exhort us to call upon the name of the Lord, to assemble together, to pray unceasingly, to prophesy, and to do so many other things. Why do they never tell us to venerate or pray to themselves or the dead saints? I believe the reason for this is because the apostles knew this practice is idolatrous. Consider the reaction of Paul and Barnabbas when the people of Lystra wanted to worship them because of the healing of the lame man. They tore their clothes in anguish and begged the people not to idolize them, but to turn and worship the living God. What would their reaction be to those people who kiss statues of the saints, parade them through the streets, light candles to them, and bow down before them, as is commonly done today by so many venerators of the saints? Consider the pronouncement against idolatry by the apostles at the first council of the church. Also consider the following statement of John: Little children, guard yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21) Would John accept these idolatrous practices because the objects of this worship were the saints of God? Never! Similarly, what would the writer of Hebrews say to those who pray to the saints to intercede for them before God? Consider the following verses: Since therefore the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself, in like manner shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 2:14,17; 4:16) Would the writer of Hebrews agree that we need someone other than Christ, our great High Priest, to mediate between us and God? Certainly not. Why then, with so much evidence against them, do some people continue to defend the practice of venerating the saints. One reason is because they were brought up to believe that this is a holy and righteous thing to do. As a former Roman Catholic (I graduated from a Catholic High School), I know how much emphasis is placed on venerating the saints in Catholicism. And it is very difficult to abandon practices that have been wrought into you in this way. Doing so requires denying yourself and your soul life. Also, I believe that God's enemy deceives many people about this issue. Throughout the ages, Satan has done everything in his power to encourage people to seek out objects of veneration in order to lead them away from God. And he has shown himself to be fully capable of accomplishing `miracles' to accomplish this end. Consider the examples of Pharoah's magicians in Exodus, and Simon Magus and the slave with the spirit of prophesy in Acts. Thus, I sincerely believe that all too many `miracles' do no come from God at all, but from His enemy. This is why the apostles warned us not be impressed by signs and wonders (I Cor. 1:22), but to hold fast to the Truth which they taught us from the beginning (I John 2:24). At this point, I realize that I have probably offended many Catholics believers. If so, I am sorry for this and hope that they will realize that I have not said any of this to put them down, but rather to convince them to turn away from what I believe is at best a vain and dangerous practice. Brothers and sisters, venerating the saints cannot help you to come to God, but can only hurt and frustrate your going on. But don't believe me. For my words, or Joe Buehler's, or those of Augustine and the other Church Fathers can never be completely trustworthy. Only the Lord's speaking to you in your spirit is true. Therefore, I urge you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to take this matter before Him in prayer, sincerely seeking His anointing and enlightenment. Ask him to show you what He thinks about saint veneration, including such practices as keeping statues and images, praying to the saints, venerating relics, etc. Also, ask Him to reveal to you clearly what ultimately are the spiritual results of such practices. Finally, be honest and open before Him and ask Him to reveal the thoughts and intentions of your heart in holding to these practices. If you seek Him in this way, in spirit and truth, He will honor your prayer by revealing His will to you in your spirit. As John said: And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for any one to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. (I John 2:27) May the Lord enlighten each one who seeks Him in this way, for His name's sake and for the sake of His kingdom. Praise the Lord! Amen.
cms@gatech.edu (03/11/91)
In response to the latest of many attacks on Christians who believe what the Bible tells them, I'll take this opportunity to say one or two things about saint veneration. At Cana, Mary is the first person to declare humanity's fundamental need: "They have no wine." Jesus responds, "Woman, what is that to me and to you? My hour has not yet come." Mary, instead of speaking to Jesus, speaks to the servers of the Wedding Feast between the Church and the Lamb, saying, "Do you whatever He tells you to do." This is what it means to be devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary: To do whatever Jesus Christ tells us to do. The author of the earlier post clearly believes that, if he had trouble with worshipping God by venerating saints, then all people must fall into the same trap. Clearly, this is not so. At the very least, it is not so with me. Also, he has misused (as usual) the term prayer. A prayer means "request." Prayer to the saints means making requests of the saints, praying that God allows the saints to hear our prayers through the medium of the Holy Spirit. If you lacked the ability to respond to veneration of the saints in terms of worshiping God, then, by all means, don't venerate the saints; by the same token, however, do not condemn those of us who do. We are Christians who love Jesus Christ so much that we also show special devotion to his closest followers, especially His Mother Mary. We are told in the Bible that the prayers of the righteous are powerful before God. None of us in the Church Militant are righteous except by the blood of Christ. The saints in heaven are also righteous but only by the blood of Christ. This why, whenever praying to the saints, we also say our prayers in the Name of Jesus Christ. If we ask anything in Jesus' Name, it will be granted. When we pray to the saints, we are effectively asking our Father in Jesus' Name to allow a particular saint the joy of answering our prayer with God's response. If you have a problem with that, then don't venerate the saints. However, you should cease making the assumption that all of us Christians have the same problems that you do. We believe we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Go convert people who need converting and leave us Christians alone. I posted a farce on t.r.m. in the not-so-distant past in which I urged all people to become Christians by being Confirmed in the Catholic Faith. As Athansius said, "This then is the Catholic faith without which a man believeth, he cannot be saved." To be a Catholic is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I do not judge you for becoming a Protestant because I heed the words of my Saviour, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I am a confident Catholic, confident that the promises made to me by the Lord will be fulfilled. Your prattling on about saint worship has been hashed out here so often I've lost count. Jesus said, "It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, but rather what comes out of the mouth that makes one unclean." If you're hung up on venerating saints as equivalent to worship, I'd strongly suggest you cease and desist calling your pastor "Reverend." Both words have the same root. Do you worship your pastor? Is your pastor your god? I hope not. Neither are the saints our gods. I know the difference. Becoming a Protestant was no doubt a good thing for you to do, but please note that not all of us have this conversion prejudice you've been experiencing. (Converts are always the ones who most zealously attack their former religion.) Much ecumenism could be accomplished if people like you were to cease judging, cease attacking, and cease trying to convert Christians to your brand of Protestantism. It isn't all relative. There are certain absolutes. The central tenets of Christianity are expressed in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. "We believe in the resurrection of the body and the life of the world to come. Amen." Christians take this literally. We believe that Mary, Paul, and thousands upon thousands of other saints are living, are _alive_, inside the sacred heart of Jesus. But perhaps you don't believe in devotions to the sacred heart of Jesus either. Look carefully at the primary devotion to Mary: the Rosary. Everytime Mary is mentioned, Jesus is connected with her in some significant way. Examples: First Joyful Mystery, Anunciation, sometimes called the Incarnation. Second Joyful, Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth and the birth of John the Baptist containing prophecies that Mary is blessed above all women because she carries God within her womb; Mary's canticle/prophecy indicating her belief that the promises of God would be fulfilled; Zechariah's canticle/prophecy "God has raised up a horn for our salvation within the house of David his servant." Fourth Joyful, Presentation in the Temple, Circumcision, Purification of Mary and Joseph includes prophecy of Simeon as well as the first time Christ shed his blood. Fifth Joyful, Finding in the Temple of the Boy Jesus; fulfillment of prophecy in Malachi 3:1, "Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; and suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts." Sorrowful Mysteries of the Passion: His prayers and Agony in the Garden of Gethsemene, His Whipping at the Pillar, His Crowning with Thorns, the Way of His Cross, and His Crucifixion and Death. Glorious Mysteries: His Resurrection from the Dead, His Ascension into Heaven, the Descent of His Holy Spirit, the Assumption of Mary (bodily or otherwise, I'm not particular on that point, being an Anglican), and the Coronation of All the Saints and Mary. The last two are the fulfillment of the promises of God. I believe the Bible. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia