[soc.religion.christian] DEATH & HELL-6 - ASBESTOS WICKED

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (03/20/91)

Earlier I have shown that the wicked do not go straight to a torturing hell.
The  wicked  have  reserved seats in the lake of fire which has not yet been
lit (2 Peter 2:9).

OK you say, hell is not lit and the dead are 'asleep'.  But now what happens
once  God  ignites  the lake of fire.  Is the final lake of fire a fire that
goes on torturing for eternity?  Let us  see  if  the  wicked  are  made  of
Asbestos,  as  some  preachers  claim,  or  of  Stubble  or  Wax that can be
thoroughly and quickly consumed.  I have over 50 texts (and many more can be
found)  that  indicate  the combustible and consumable nature of the wicked.
Here are a few of them:

     Consumed like a moth.  (Ps. 39:11)

     Like a snail which melts away as it goes. (Psa 58:8)

     Consume them in wrath that they  may not be.  (Psa 59:13)

     As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the  presence
     of God. (Psa 68:2)

     As a flower of the field, flourishes, is gone and remembered no  more."
     (Psa 103:15,16)

     The lamp of the wicked will be put out.  (Prov 13:9; 24:20)

     As the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff. (Isa
     5:24)

     "Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall
     not  deliver  themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a
     coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!"  --  Isa 47:14  (NKJ)

     Wicked will be stubble, day coming will burn them up, root and  branch.
     (Mal 4:1)

     ""And even now the axe is laid to the  root  of  the  trees.  Therefore
     every  tree  which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
     the fire."  --  Mat 3:10  (NKJ)  Matt 7:19 similar.

     He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable{asbestos} fire.  (Mat 3:12;
     Luke 3:17)

     "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able  to  kill  the
     soul:  but  rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body
     in hell.  (Matt. 10:28)

     " 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest
     I  will  say  to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind
     them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my  barn."  '""
     --  Mat 13:30  (NKJ)

What about the texts where Jesus says it is the physical body and  not  some
vaporous spirit that goes to hell?

     than for your whole body to go into hell. (Mat 5:29,30)

     able to destroy the body in hell.  (Mat 10:28)

     than having two hands to go into hell (Mark 9:43)  two feet  into  hell
     (vs 45)  two eyes (vs 47)

These texts do not speak of ethereal souls in hell but  rather  of  physical
bodies  and  body parts.  And earlier I showed that hell is really the grave
where body and soul are no longer concious.  But in this post we are  inves-
tigating the possibility that hell may be the final lake of fire.

GNASHING TEETH

What about "gnashing teeth"?  Weeping and wailing and "gnashing  of  teeth"?
In  the  Bible, the gnashing of teeth is not at all a suggestive of pain and
torture but rather an expression of aggressive anger:

     My adversary sharpens His gaze on me and gnashes at me with His  teeth.
     (Job 16:9)

     The wicked plots against the just and gnashes at him  with  his  teeth.
     (Psa 37:12)

     Ungodly mockers gnashed at me with their teeth. (Psa 35:16)

     Wicked will be grieved and will gnash his teeth and melt away and shall
     perish. Psa 112:10)

     Your enemies hiss and gnash their teeth.  (Lam 2:16)

     Weeping, wailing, gnashing  of  teeth.   (Mat  8:12;  13:42,50;  22:13;
     24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28)

First comes the remorse at their rebellion and then the bitter rage  against
God and then the fire consumes.

EVERLASTING UNQUENCHABLE FIRE:

What about the texts such as Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43 and  Rev.  20:9,10   that
talk  about  everlasting or unquenchable fire prepared for the devil and his
angels?  Compare them with these texts:

     "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in  like  manner,
     giving  themselves  over to fornication, and going after strange flesh,
     are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
     (Jude 1:7)

     Brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah.  (Gen 19:24,25)  The next day
     Abraham  saw  the  smoke  going  up  like the smoke of a furnace.  (Gen
     19:27,28)

     Edom like Sodom and Gomorrah, No one shall abide there.  (Jer 49:17,18)

     "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath  day  .  .  .
     then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the
     palaces of  Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.  (Jer 17:27)   The
     fire was not quenched until all was ashes.  (11 Chron. 36:19-21)

Unquenchable fire that cannot be quenched until it has totally consumed  and
with everlasting results.

Those who have visited the place called Sodom and stayed in the  Lot  hotel,
on the shores of the Dead Sea, can confirm that these cities were thoroughly
and eternally destroyed with a fire that the  Bible  calls  'eternal  fire'.
The  dead  sea  covers  the  place where these cities once stood.  The fires
could not be quenched until they were done consuming.  Attempts to  put  out
the  fires  were  hopeless.     Those  who  have  studied the destruction of
Jerusalem can testify that these fires did finally go out a long  time  ago.
But  some  will insist that Jude 1:7 says that the people of Sodom were sent
to hell and that is where the unquenchable fire of Sodom, Gomorrah,  Babylon
and Jerusalem are to be found.

     "The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater
     than  the  punishment  of  the  sin of Sodom, which was overthrown in a
     moment, with no hand to help her!"  --  Lam 4:6  (NKJ)

     ". . . . I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour  every  green
     tree  and  every  dry  tree . . . . it shall not be quenched.""--  Ezek
     20:47,48  (NKJ)

     "The strong shall be as tinder, and the work of it  as  a  spark;  both
     will burn together, and no one shall quench them."  --  Isa 1:31  (NKJ)

     Babylon like Sodom and Gomorrah.   Not  inhabited,  only  wild  beasts.
     (Isa 13:19-22; Jer 50:39,40)

     Defeated Babylonians sleeping a perpetual sleep and  not  awake.   (Jer
     51:39,57)

Let us consider secular history:

     Homer told of the "inextinguishable fire," which consumed  the  Grecian
     fleet.

     Eusebius described the martyrdom of  two  Christians  condemned  to  be
     burned with "inextinguishable fire".

     During the great Chicago fire, it was said  that  nobody  could  quench
     that  fire.   Chicago was destroyed by unquenchable fire.  That is what
     the newspapers said.  Is Chicago still burning?  Did  the  newsmen  say
     Chicago was relocated to hell?

People reading the newspaper have no trouble understanding what unquenchable
means.   The  unquenchable  fire  cannot be quenched until it has thoroughly
consumed.  The fire department can turn on their hoses, but it  does  little
good until the fire has completed its grim work.  Unquenchable is so consum-
ing that even re-incarnation must be ruled out.  So unquenchable that it  is
our assurance that Satan and his host have no chance of survival.

WORMS

What about the worms that do not die?  A few years ago I read a story  about
an  American  who  went to be a cowboy in South America.  A deep gash in his
leg became infected.  With the medicine on hand he was unable to  stop  this
particular infection which continued to fester.  A native suggested blow fly
larvae - the maggots that the Bible would call  worms.   So  he  opened  the
wound, tossed in a small handful of maggots and put a large bandage over it.
A couple weeks later he opened up the bandage, gave the maggots a  whiff  of
ether  and  then poured them out onto the ground.  The maggots had eaten all
the dead rotting tissue and had not touched any living flesh.  The wound was
pink  and  sterile.  The infection was completely gone.  In the Bible we see
the same thing.  The 'worms' are symbolic of death and not  of  life.   They
are  symbolic  of  dead rotting bodies with no claim at all to life or cons-
ciousness of any kind.  As long as there is any sign of the infection of sin
the worms will symbolically continue to eat it up until it is all gone.

     "They lie down alike in the dust, and worms cover them."  --  Job 21:26
     (NKJ)

     The worm will eat them like wool.  (Isa 51:8)

     The worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.  (Mark 9:44,46,48)

As long as there is anything combustible the fire will continue to burn  and
cannot  be put out.  As long as there is dead meat for the maggots they will
not die and will continue to feed.  Once the body is consumed  there  is  no
more  fire  and  no more worm.  Worms and the valley of Hinnom (gehenna) are
symbolic of places for the dead and no consciousness is suggested.   In  the
Bible  context  there  is  no suggestion at all of life.  This is death that
remains dead with absolutely no consciousness.  The  symbolism  is  that  of
consuming  the  decay of sin until there is no more sin to haunt the eternal
future of the saints.

EVERLASTING:

What about  ". . . . . smoke of their torment  ascendeth  up  for  ever  and
ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast . . . . .".
(Rev. 14:9-11)?  Here are some Old  Testament  texts  worth  looking  up  in
several  different  translations  -  Exodus 21:6; Ex. 12:24; Jonah 2:6.  New
Testament Greek used the word 'aions' 123 times.  55 times  it  is  rendered
'forever' or 'forever and ever'.  Here are a few examples of its usage:

     " "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall  also  bring
     him  to  the  door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his
     ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever{olam}.  "--   Exo  21:6
     (NKJ)

     Jonah in the belly of the whale - "The waters encompassed me,  even  to
     my  soul; the deep closed around me; weeds were wrapped around my head.
     I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with  its  bars
     closed  behind  me  forever{olam}; yet You have brought up my life from
     the grave, O LORD, my God.  (Jonah 2:5,6)

     Do not conform to this world{aions}.  This 'age', in  another  transla-
     tion.  (Rom. 12:2)

     The people of this age{aions} marry and give in marriage.  (Luke 20:34)

     The god of this age{aions}, the devil, has blinded the unbelieving from
     the light of the Gospel. (2 Cor. 4:4)

     "These things happen to them as examples and were written down as warn-
     ings  for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages{aions} has come."  (1
     Cor. 10:11)

     "The enemy that sowed them is the devil;  the harvest is the end of the
     world{aions}; and the reapers are the angels.  (Matt. 13:39)

     "who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of  the
     coming age{aions}."  (Heb. 6:5)

The word 'aions' refers to a state or  period  of  undefined  length,  often
determined by context.  It speaks of unlimited time within the limits deter-
mined by the thing it modifies.  When God is said to be 'eternal'  it  means
that  God  is  truly 'forever'.  Satan and his host will be confined to this
earth (hell) during the millenial 'aion' (1000 years) while the  saints  are
in  heaven  with Jesus.  Sometimes 'aions' does mean ages without end.  But,
clearly it can also mean ages of  unknown  and  limited  length.   'aionios'
means  permanence  within limits.  The 'aionios reign of Tiberius Caesar was
23 years.  You are familiar with the expression "long live  the  king".   In
Caesars  day  you  would use the word 'aionios' - to express the expectation
that Caesar's rule would meet no untimely end.  Revelation  20:9  says  that
fire  came  down  from  heaven and devoured them.  See also Matt. 13:4 which
talks about birds devouring seeds - same Greek word.   The  Bible  makes  it
clear  in  enough places that the unknown length of time does indeed come to
an end for Satan and his wicked host who will be  thoroughly  and  for  ever
consumed.

Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of eternal{aionios}  fire."  (Jude
1:7)   Sodom,  which  was  overthrown  in a moment.  (Lam 4:6)  It should be
clear that unquenchable and 'aionios' can have related  meaning.   Sometimes
the meaning of 'aionios' is that the consequence and not the action is eter-
nal.

The Bible shows us that the wicked and Satan with his host  receive  a  real
death  sentence rather than a life sentence.  If it was an eternal life sen-
tence then I would be in fear of their eventual escape.

     "Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed  the  wicked,  thou
     hast  put out their name for ever and ever.  O thou enemy, destructions
     are come to a perpetual end:  and thou  hast  destroyed  cities;  their
     memorial is perished with them."  (Psalm 9:5,6)

     "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall  be
     no  more  death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any
     more pain:  for the former things are passed away.  (Rev. 21:4)

In the end there will not even be the pain of knowing that someone you  knew
is  still  roasting  in  hell.   The lake of fire will have consumed and the
memory of it will be left to the past.

Clearly, the former things will indeed be passed away.  How  can  the  Great
Controversy  between  Christ  and Satan come to it's end with God thoroughly
vindicated as a truly loving God if Satan and his host can continue  to  cry
out  from  hell.   After awhile would not the saints come to sympathize with
his well crafted entreaties?  Those who would  propose  re-incarnation  must
understand  what everlasting destruction means.  It means that Satan and his
host can never be re-incarnated.  Their destruction will be everlasting  and
eternal.   "Whatever  they  plot  against  the Lord he will bring to an end;
trouble will not come a second time."  (Nahum  1:9)    Clearly,  the  former
things  will be passed away.  We really will leave the problems of this sin-
ful earth behind.

Dave (David E. Buxton)
From the Silicon RainForest or the Northwest

ajm@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony McGregor) (03/22/91)

I know this is a small point from a large posting but I feel bound to
at least mention it.


In article <Mar.20.03.43.48.1991.9297@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes:
>What about the worms that do not die?  A few years ago I read a story
>... with the medicine on hand he was unable to stop this particular
>infection ...  he opened the wound, tossed in a small handful of
>maggots and put a large bandage over it.  ... he opened up the bandage
>The maggots had ... not touched any living flesh.  The wound was pink
>and sterile.  The infection was completely gone.  In the Bible we see
>the same thing.  ...


I don't think you can use this story as a basis for your biblical
interpretation; it is very likely to be false. Maggots do eat living
flesh and, if not stopped, will kill an otherwise healthy animal.  It
is very unpleasant to see the result of a a maggot infection and often
makes people vomit.

Tony
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony McGregor ( ajm@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au )  
Department of Robotics and Digital Technology, Monash University
PO Box 197, Caulfield East, Vic 3145, Australia  
Phone: +61 3 5732014  Fax: +61 3 5732745
----------------------------------------------------------------------