davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (03/20/91)
Here is how we find the text rendered in most Bibles:
"Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, Today you will be with me
in paradise'". -- Luke 23:43 (NIV)
Now let me move the crucial comma over:
"Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth today, You will be with me
in paradise'". (Luke 23:43)
Using my Greek Interlinear and Strong's Concordance Dictionary:
truly I-say-to you today with me shall-come-to-pass(future) paradise
The Greek does not provide the comma. This is a comma that the translators
must add to their translations because it does not exist in the original
Greek. The placement of the comma cannot be determined from the Greek con-
struction of the text itself. There are too many credentialed Greek scho-
lars who insist that, with only the text in hand, the comma can be placed
equally well in either position. Clearly this is not a proof text with
which to insist that the souls of Jesus and the thief went to paradise while
their bodies went to the grave. With the original Greek text alone it can
just as readily be shown that they anticipated a re-union just as the thief
asked in the preceding verse "when you come in your kingdom" (vs 42). Jesus
simply affirmed his request.
Until recently I have been building up a rather iron clad set of reasons why
I was convinced that the thief was still alive when the day ended at sun
down. Gymnasts and others swing about by their arms with no problem breath-
ing. Consider this story from the "Cambodian holocaust": Dr. Haing S. Ngor
tells how he is taken, along with several other prisoners, and each tied to
a cross. Their feet were left to blister hanging over a slow rice hull
fire, clearly no foot rest. After four days without food or water he was
taken down. In his story he says nothing about breathing problems.
I decided to discuss these things with Gene Gross for a second opinion.
With Gene's permission, here is the key portion of what he told me:
First, every doctor that I've spoken with says that death resulted from
a spasm of the respiratory muscles that prevented exhalation which
caused asphyxiation. Second, when we lived in Italy, we were taught
Italian history. One of the things that our teacher, an Italian, and
from what I recall, she was a Fasciste, taught us was about the Romans.
She brought in copies of old Roman records for us to look at and read
one day. I recall vividly reading the accounts of the crucifixions of
hundreds of slaves following the great slave rebellion. Many died of
wounds received prior to being hung up on a cross. But the record also
mentioned the hundreds of others who died and their dying attempts to
breath resulted in a sound that haunted many of the Roman guards.
Gene also explains that the victims had been flogged and so their backs were
ripped to ribbons, including muscles used for breathing. With this kind of
trauma the muscles would readily go into spasm. Also, it is possible that
their shoulders were dislocated when their crosses were plunged into the
ground. These are circumstances quite different from those demonstrated by
some experiment or gymnastics.
It would be nice to offer convincing proof that the thief was still alive at
the end of the day. But I cannot. Considering that a Roman guard was put
to death if their prisoner escaped, it is virtually guaranteed that the
thief was dead by the end of the day. Gene's research shows clearly that
the Romans, to be sure of death, would administer a final "coup de grace by
thrusting a lance through the victim's rib cage on the right side. This is
an instantly mortal blow as it slices through the right side of the
diaphragm, the right lung, and the heart."
So, why do I still persist in moving the comma over when I must accept that
all three were most probably dead by sundown:
1) - I have already talked about 'soul sleep' and other Biblical proofs that
there is no conciousness in death.
2) - In Matthew 16 starting verse 21 I read that Jesus started to plainly
tell the disciples about His coming suffering and death. And Peter rebuked
Him saying this shall not happen. And Jesus turned to Peter and said "Get
thee behind me Satan", you are a temptation to me and have the mind of men
and not of God. Clearly Jesus knew He was going to die and that it would be
a real honest death.
Jesus really did die: Matt 12:40; Acts 2:24,31; 10:39,40; 1 Cor 15:3,4.
Read carefully Matt 27:62-66 -- the Pharisees were concerned that the disci-
ples would steal Him away before the 3'd day and then claim a resurrection.
Jesus really did die a full and complete death and rested over the Sabbath.
3) - If it was His spirit that went sprinting off to paradise, then why
could He not have simply returned to His body when the time came? Reading
the story of the resurrection of Lazarus it is clear that He had the power
of resurrection and so could have resurrected Himself. But the Bible states
that it was the Holy Spirit that brought Him back to life (Rom 8:11; Acts
2:24; 10:40; 1 Peter 3:18). If Jesus spent the week-end as a spirit there
would have been no need for the Holy Spirit to bring Him back to life. His
own 'spirit' could have simply returned to His body.
4) - Consider these texts about Paradise:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of
life, which is in the PARADISE of God." (Revelation 2:7)
"And He showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of
the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree
of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit
every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the
nations." (Revelation 22:1,2)
"And then I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and
the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev.
21:1)
From these texts I see that Paradise is Heaven - Heaven where God is (Rev
2:7). The first heaven, since it will be destroyed with the sea, must be
the heaven where the birds fly, the same heaven spoken of in Genesis during
creation week. The second heaven is where the stars and planets are. The
third heaven, paradise, is where God is. And we read earlier that the
wicked are reserved for the day of judgement (not for 'soul prison'). Jesus
simply told the 'Good Thief' that someday, after the resurrection, they
would meet again in the third heaven where God and paradise are located.
5) - On the eve of His betrayal Jesus said He was going to prepare a place
for them, a place where they could all join Him (John 14:1-3). Sunday
morning it is clear He has not been there yet. Jesus, when He was talking
to the thief, was offering the same promise that He offered to His disciples
less than 24 hours earlier. He told His disciples about preparing "many
mansions" for them. These mansions were not yet ready for His disciples nor
for the thief. He simply told the thief that they would some day be there
together, just as He had told His disciples.
6) - Let us see what happened the following Sunday morning after Jesus had
'rested' in death over the Sabbath:
Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father" (John 20:17)
Jesus dying agony was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus
died, not knowing that His life and death had been sufficient. That was
part of the torment that broke His heart. He died with the full weight of
our sins upon Him, with no last minute assurance of victory. For all He
knew, the 2nd death was closing in upon Him.
Certainly Jesus understood His mission better than any one did. But con-
sider those last few days. Everyone else seemed to think He should be nuk-
ing Romans and then they rejected Him when He refused to take up His scepter
and His command. The crowds wanted nothing but a King. His disciples did
not stay awake with Him and then had deserted Him. One of them had even
betrayed Him. It was Satan's eager desire to tempt Jesus that His death was
in vain, that His very real torture was pointless. The Bible clearly states
that Jesus was tempted "in all points like as we are". He sweat great drops
of blood in the garden the night before. No wonder He had earlier cried out
to God to please "remove this cup from Me". Clearly Jesus human nature was
of no small consequence. Satan made every effort to try and convince Jesus
that no one was taking Him up on His offer of salvation.
All His life, Jesus and His Father were in close harmony and constantly in
touch. This was the secret of His purity and His perfect life. The only
instance where there was any separation from His Father was just before He
died. If God had continued to linger near, Jesus could not have died, just
as Lazarus could not have died if Jesus had not dallied on the way to his
bedside. So, in those last awful minutes, instead of a voice from heaven
assuring Him of victory, His Father pulled away so that He could die. In
the end He bore our sins alone, looking out on a world that seemed to be in
contempt of His sacrifice, and in that final hour, not having the assurance
that His sacrifice was even acceptable to God.
So, They must have been eager, after the resurrection, to confirm His sacri-
fice. Sunday, Jesus said He had not yet ascended to His Father. Certainly,
if separation from His Father was His dying agony then a re-union after the
resurrection would have been a very very high priority. If Jesus had a
conscious 'soul' capable of going somewhere; then a top priority would be to
check things out with God in Paradise and so no need to say what He dis-
tinctly said Sunday morning. No way, Jesus did not go to any "Paradise" on
Friday. He still had not ascended to His Father on Sunday morning.
7) - What about all the prophecies that said Jesus would be in the tomb for
three days - three days by Jewish reckoning. Jesus explained these texts,
making it clear that He really would be dead. Do we make Jesus a false pro-
phet by sending His 'spirit' off to preach to souls in prison? Does someone
wish to argue that this little trip was a surprise that He learned about
late Friday afternoon just before He talked to the thief? Then why did he
explain the same prophecies again after Sunday morning. Clearly He had no
knowledge of zipping around as a spirit that week-end. Does anyone wish to
make Him out to be a liar? Did Jesus high tail if off to preach a sermon to
a crowd in prison, including the thief on the cross? Then come back to His
body and say nothing at all about it? No! Hardly!
---------
Perhaps you ask, what about the text where Jesus (and later Stephen) says
"Into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46)
Jesus is quoting from Psalm 31:1,5. Found in a psalm David wrote for his
director of music:
"In You, O LORD, I put my trust; Let me never be ashamed; Deliver me in
Your righteousness." -- Psa 31:1 (NKJ)
"Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of
truth. " -- Psa 31:5 (NKJ)
David was very much alive when he wrote those words and hardly on his death
bed. When Jesus said them there was nothing more He could do. He was
resigning His fate and the fate of the world into the hands of God. He was
giving up the breath of life (pneuma = wind or breath) to the God who gave
it in the first place. This is the breath of life that man has repeatedly
failed to create in the test tube. He made no proclamation of victory when
He died. And so it was, as He had lived His life in perfect harmony with
His Father in heaven, so He died committing His fate and the fate of this
world into the hands of His Father.
Dave (David E. Buxton)
From the Silicon RainForest of the Northwest
[An experiment was done a few years ago in a Catholic seminary.
Following the time-honored methods of experimental psychologists, they
crucified a few of their students. They reported no problems
breathing. The article claimed that the previous claims about muscle
spasms were based on studies of punishments in the Prussian army.
However those were not actually crucifixions, and involved a different
position of the arms.
I'm not sure that Jesus' comment to the thief is evidence one way or
the other. Time need not be entirely linear for God. Even if he was
not resurrected until the end, it would still seem to be immediate to
the thief. After all, "sleep" is being used metaphorically in your
view, isn't it?
--clh]math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (03/22/91)
In article <Mar.20.04.02.47.1991.9626@athos.rutgers.edu>, davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: You have some interesting ideas, but I want to comment on a few things: > Jesus really did die: Matt 12:40; Acts 2:24,31; 10:39,40; 1 Cor 15:3,4. > Read carefully Matt 27:62-66 -- the Pharisees were concerned that the disci- > ples would steal Him away before the 3'd day and then claim a resurrection. > Jesus really did die a full and complete death and rested over the Sabbath. Yes, Jesus really did die. > 3) - If it was His spirit that went sprinting off to paradise, then why > could He not have simply returned to His body when the time came? Reading > the story of the resurrection of Lazarus it is clear that He had the power > of resurrection and so could have resurrected Himself. But the Bible states > that it was the Holy Spirit that brought Him back to life (Rom 8:11; Acts > 2:24; 10:40; 1 Peter 3:18). If Jesus spent the week-end as a spirit there > would have been no need for the Holy Spirit to bring Him back to life. His > own 'spirit' could have simply returned to His body. Meditate on this verse for a while: "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19. "That if you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9. Thus in one place, Jesus spoke of raising himself from the dead, yet elsewhere this act is attrubuted to God. This is one part of the evidence that Jesus is God. A good question to ask at this point is: did God die on the cross? No, God cannot die. But in the person of Jesus God did experience death. > From these texts I see that Paradise is Heaven - Heaven where God is (Rev > 2:7). The first heaven, since it will be destroyed with the sea, must be > the heaven where the birds fly, the same heaven spoken of in Genesis during > creation week. The second heaven is where the stars and planets are. The > third heaven, paradise, is where God is. And we read earlier that the > wicked are reserved for the day of judgement (not for 'soul prison'). Jesus > simply told the 'Good Thief' that someday, after the resurrection, they > would meet again in the third heaven where God and paradise are located. This is basically the correct interpretation of "the third heaven" that Paul spoke of in 2 Cor. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept your theory about the thief, however. > Jesus dying agony was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus > died, not knowing that His life and death had been sufficient. That was > part of the torment that broke His heart. He died with the full weight of > our sins upon Him, with no last minute assurance of victory. For all He > knew, the 2nd death was closing in upon Him. Here I simply have to disagree with you. He certainly did know that his life and death had been sufficient for the salvation of all men, for he also said 'It is finished.' For a little more context, lets look at John 19: 28-30: "Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, 'I am thirsty.' A jar of vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." > All His life, Jesus and His Father were in close harmony and constantly in > touch. This was the secret of His purity and His perfect life. The only > instance where there was any separation from His Father was just before He > died. If God had continued to linger near, Jesus could not have died, just > as Lazarus could not have died if Jesus had not dallied on the way to his > bedside. So, in those last awful minutes, instead of a voice from heaven > assuring Him of victory, His Father pulled away so that He could die. In > the end He bore our sins alone, looking out on a world that seemed to be in > contempt of His sacrifice, and in that final hour, not having the assurance > that His sacrifice was even acceptable to God. Being separated from his Father was an important part of Jesus' suffering. Yet as I have explained, he certainly did know that his sacrifice was acceptable. As to whether Jesus could have died without being separated from his Father, I think that you may be right, but you are touching on one of the more difficult mysteries of the Christian faith which are simply not answerable this side of judgement day. > So, They must have been eager, after the resurrection, to confirm His sacri- > fice. Sunday, Jesus said He had not yet ascended to His Father. Certainly, > if separation from His Father was His dying agony then a re-union after the > resurrection would have been a very very high priority. If Jesus had a > conscious 'soul' capable of going somewhere; then a top priority would be to > check things out with God in Paradise and so no need to say what He dis- > tinctly said Sunday morning. No way, Jesus did not go to any "Paradise" on > Friday. He still had not ascended to His Father on Sunday morning. He had not yet ascended to His Father *bodily*. That took place at his ascenscion. He told Mary Magdalene not to hold on to his body, presumably because he was not about to start reigning as an earthly king, but would ascend to heaven to live and reign over a spiritual kingdom, his church. > 7) - What about all the prophecies that said Jesus would be in the tomb for > three days - three days by Jewish reckoning. Jesus explained these texts, > making it clear that He really would be dead. Do we make Jesus a false pro- > phet by sending His 'spirit' off to preach to souls in prison? Does someone > wish to argue that this little trip was a surprise that He learned about > late Friday afternoon just before He talked to the thief? Then why did he > explain the same prophecies again after Sunday morning. Clearly He had no > knowledge of zipping around as a spirit that week-end. Does anyone wish to > make Him out to be a liar? Did Jesus high tail if off to preach a sermon to > a crowd in prison, including the thief on the cross? Then come back to His > body and say nothing at all about it? No! Hardly! His body certainly lay in the grave during that time. To human eyes, he was certainly dead during the three days an rose again on the third. Why should the prophecies complicate matters by speaking of the preaching to the spirits in prison. That he did preach to the spirits in prison is made clear in 1 Peter 3:18-20. I am willing to talk about what this preaching means, and when it happened, in a reasonable way, on the basis of Scripture. But the truth is that this is one of the more difficult passages in Scripture to understand, and we don't really know that much about it. If you want to see how difficult, go look in Eerdman's Pulpit Commentary. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "Upon the cross extended, See, world. Thy Lord suspended, Thy Savior yields his breath. The Prince of Life from heaven Himself hath freely given. To shame and blows and bitter death. "Come hither now and ponder, 'Twill fill thy soul with wonder, Blood streams from every pore. Through grief whose depth none knoweth, From His great heart there floweth Sigh after sigh af anguish o'er. "Who is it that hath bruised Thee? Who hath so sore abused Thee And caused Thee all Thy woe? While we must make confession Of sin and dire trasgression Thou deeds of evil dost not know. "I caused Thy grief and sighing By evils multiplying As countless as the sands. I caused the woes unnumbered With which Thy soul is cumbered, Thy sorrows raised by wicked hands." --"O Welt, sieh hier dein Leben", v. 1-4 --Paul Gerhardt, 1648. --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #171 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.