CONS.ELF@AIDA.CSD.UU.SE (Ake Eldberg) (03/22/91)
I have recently had a conversation on a different newsgroup where we came to talk about the Christian belief in the devil. A person there, who I suspect is a modern "Pagan", stated that the devil is what resulted when the Church took the old Pagan gods and demonized them. Many pagan deities had horns and other animal features, which is the origin of our image of the devil. To this, I replied that the pagan deities may have affected our *image* and visualization of satan, but that the idea existed long before. Religious historians claim that the idea arose around 600 BC as a result of Iranian dualism which crept into Judaism. Another "modern Pagan" pointed out that many Irish saints appear to be Pagan deities which the Church converted into saints. This was an easy way out of the confrontation -- people could continue to pray to their favorite pagan gods while being Christians. I would like to know if anyone on this newsgroup has any more knowledge about these things, specifically: 1. How has the Christian image of the devil developed and changed since the New Testament was written, and 2. How have Christian missionaries in various parts of the world dealt with the existing pagan deities; have these been declared to be demons, fantasies &c, or have they been assumed into Christianity and declared "ancient saints"? Ake Eldberg
amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) (03/25/91)
In article <Mar.21.23.11.30.1991.16433@athos.rutgers.edu> CONS.ELF@AIDA.CSD.UU.SE (Ake Eldberg) writes: >I have recently had a conversation on a different newsgroup where >we came to talk about the Christian belief in the devil. A person >there, who I suspect is a modern "Pagan", stated that the devil >is what resulted when the Church took the old Pagan gods and >demonized them. Many pagan deities had horns and other animal >features, which is the origin of our image of the devil. > >To this, I replied that the pagan deities may have affected >our *image* and visualization of satan, but that the idea >existed long before. Religious historians claim that the idea >arose around 600 BC as a result of Iranian dualism which crept >into Judaism. This is indeed true; many other faiths that you would probably consider Pagan had such a duality. However, what I believe the person was referring to was the fact that Pan (Greek), Cernunnos (Continental Celtic) and the Horned God of Ireland (whose name we don't know) were the *physical* prototypes for the medieval image of Satan. That *was* an example of the conquered people's gods becoming the devils of the new faith. >Another "modern Pagan" pointed out that many Irish saints appear >to be Pagan deities which the Church converted into saints. This >was an easy way out of the confrontation -- people could continue >to pray to their favorite pagan gods while being Christians. This is also true. The legends attributed to Saint Bridget of Kildare and the goddess Brighid (whose primary shrine was in Kildare) are virtually identical. The Irish people, who had been practicing their own hybrid form of Christianity before Patrick came to Romanize them, were negotiable on most things, but they had to have Brighid. She is called "the Mary of the Gaels" because she is so popular and so well-loved. The list of saints who are merely slightly different faces of Pagan deities is extremely long. Most people were quite reasonable about it, too -- after all, they didn't care *who* they lit their candles to as long as they got their results. >I would like to know if anyone on this newsgroup has any more >knowledge about these things, specifically: >1. How has the Christian image of the devil developed and changed > since the New Testament was written, and Since which version was written? Some people maintain that Satan was a late addition to the texts. >2. How have Christian missionaries in various parts of the world > dealt with the existing pagan deities; have these been declared > to be demons, fantasies &c, or have they been assumed into > Christianity and declared "ancient saints"? Yes. All of the above. A classic example is how the Great Mother Goddess, who was an integral part of many Pagan beliefs, has been subsumed as the Whore of Babylon, Mary Magdelene, the Virgin Mary, and countless female saints. I'm curious as to why you call these people "modern pagans" in quotes. Do you not believe that they can be Pagan in this day and age? Or do you just think that because they revere a different deity, that it's not a real religion? If I told you I was a Witch, would you call me a "witch?" >Ake Eldberg -- -----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)------------- "The whims that we're weeping for our parents would be beaten for."--Kate Bush ----------amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu---------The University of Texas @Austin---