dhawk@lll-crg.llnl.gov (David Hawkins) (09/20/89)
nlt@romeo.cs.duke.edu (N. L. Tinkham) writes: >Most Protestant denominations, of course, either classify only the first two >as sacraments or reject the concept of "sacrament" altogether. (As I write, >I am remembering that many denominations which consider baptism and the >eucharist to be sacraments do perform marriages and ordinations but do not Speaking as a Southern Baptist, we have two 'ordinances' -- baptism (surprise!) and the Lord's Supper. While it is common to refer them as sacraments at church, our theological background thinks of them as practices that Jesus commanded, but they do not bestow grace. By the way, that's why the table at the front of a S.B. church is a 'communion table' -- it would be an altar if an actual sacrifice took place. (Or am I getting into a different issue?) ;-) later, david -- David Hawkins - dhawk@well.sf.ca.us - {apple,pacbell,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk + "Who sees all beings in his own Self, and his own Self in all beings, + loses all fear." -- Isa Upanishad
dg@xait.xerox.com (David Goodenough) (11/17/89)
Ralph A. Foy says: > We understand a sacrament to be an act which we recognize Christ's > presence in a real, but special way. In the Catechism in the 1979 prayer book a sacrament is defined as "An outward and visible sign of something spiritual", so taking an example, Marriage: the outward signs are the exchanging of vows and rings, and the joining of hands. What these signs are representing, is (to quote Matthew) "Wherefore they are no more twain but one flesh" - the joining of body, mind, and spirit of husband and wife. > In a sense every moment should > be sacramental, insofar as Christ is always with us; however we > recognize seven sacramental rituals which are "formal" celebrations in > which the community celebrates as a Church Sacrament. They are: > > 1. Baptism 2. Confirmation 3. Matrimony > 4. Holy Orders 5. Reconciliation 6. Annointing of the Sick > 7. Christian Burial Small point. The seventh sacrament is not burial (that is one of the mercies?). It is Eucharist. -- dg@lakart.UUCP - David Goodenough +---+ IHS | +-+-+ ....... !harvard!xait!lakart!dg +-+-+ | AKA: dg%lakart.uucp@xait.xerox.com +---+
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.5.23.38.52.1991.23057@athos.rutgers.edu>, news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) writes: > In <Mar.1.02.41.53.1991.15455@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > >> As reformers sought to bring the >>church back to its roots, the Old Testament was amended, 5 sacraments >>were elimimated, (since Jesus never participated in them). etc... > > Can you explain that a little more clearly for me? It seems like Christ > participated in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (he forgave sins a lot, > and commissioned his disciples to do so), Anointing of the Sick, Holy > Orders (commissioning of ministers), baptism (actually, the direct > evidence is that His disciples baptized under His supervision, but He > certainly directed them to baptize), and the Eucharist. Confirmation and > matrimony are separate cases, but both based on His teaching. What's the > Protestant understanding of the sacraments? I didn't think they all > agreed on the number of sacraments. But there seem to be particular > problems with any claim that five sacraments were eliminated because > Christ didn't participate in them. Actually it is not so much a matter of eliminating sacraments as redefining what is a sacrament. Luther believed at first that there were three: baptism , penance, and the Lord's supper. He later came to the belief that penance/repentance was really just a part of baptism; that in baptism the Lord moves us to repentance throughout our lives. Luther defined a sacrament to be an act that 1. used visible means (water, wine, bread) 2. was commanded by Christ 3. offered the promise of God's grace. Luther (and Lutherans) believed that a sacrament is a means of grace, just as the preaching of the Word is a means of grace. A means of grace is a way in which God works faith in our hearts and thereby forgives our sins. Baptism and the Lord's Supper, for example, are means of grace. Marriage, on the other hand, is instituted by God, and is a very great blessing, but does not in and of itself convey forgiveness of sins. Similarly the healin of the sick was done by Christ, and is also a great blessing, but does not necessarily heal the spirit. Our moderator writes: > It's hard to speak for all > Protestants, but generally the definition of a sacrament is that it is > a symbolic act which presents the Word in a visible form, which Christ > ordained. This is a very Calvinist or Zwinglian definition. > In fact there's a certain arbitrariness to this distinction, and I > believe it was recognized at the time. Luther said at one point that > he wasn't so concerned with whether something (I think confession, > though I may have the wrong sacrament) was considered a sacrament as > whether it was carried out in a Scriptural manner. I agree, although once we define 'sacrament', then it matters what is a sacrament. > Catholicism sees the world > sacramentally. It's not just the 7 formal sacraments, but the whole > package of saints, Mary, and in fact the role of the Church itself. The nature of a sacrament vs. a sacrifice is one of the big differences between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Lutherans believe that a sacrament is something God does for us, whereas a sacrifice is our response to God's grace. Of course the one really effective sacrifice was performed by Christ, when he offered himself on the cross as a sacrifice for all of our sins. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "O Dearest Jesus, What law hast thou broken That such sharp sentence should on Thee be spoken? Of what great crime hast Thou to make confession, --What dark transgression? "Whence come these sorrows, Whence this mortal anguish? It is my sins for which Thou, Lord, must languish; Yea, all the wrath, the woe, Thou dost inherit, This I do merit." "O Dearest Jesus, What Law Hast Thou Broken" v. 1,2 ("Herzliebster Jesu") --Johann Heerman, 1630 --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #143. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
dhosek@linus.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (03/11/91)
Our friendly moderator said... > Part of this is not an issue of theology, but an issue of approach. > I've found Greeley's comments on the nature of Catholicism very useful > in helping me understand the distinction. Catholicism sees the world > sacramentally. It's not just the 7 formal sacraments, but the whole > package of saints, Mary, and in fact the role of the Church itself. Yes, one of the important things about Sacraments and Catholicism is that the seven sacramants that are listed as such by the church are not necessarily the only sacraments; and the church does officially recognize that other acts and institutions can be sacraments as well (one priest I've talked to has commented that he's always thought that there should be a sacrament of friendship). The old Baltimore Catechism definition of a sacrament is something along the lines of a visible sign of grace instituted by Christ to show God's love (or some such. I've never actually seen a Baltimore Catechism myself). There's a lot of room for sacramentality in every day life with that definition. -dh
news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) (03/12/91)
In <Mar.11.02.53.13.1991.5555@athos.rutgers.edu> dhosek@linus.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) writes: >Yes, one of the important things about Sacraments and Catholicism >is that the seven sacramants that are listed as such by the church >are not necessarily the only sacraments ... >The old Baltimore Catechism definition of a sacrament is something >along the lines of a visible sign of grace instituted by Christ to >show God's love (or some such. I've never actually seen a >Baltimore Catechism myself). There's a lot of room for >sacramentality in every day life with that definition. Operating from memory (I haven't seen a Baltimore Chatechism in a _long_ time, but for this sort of thing, my memory is usually pretty good), "a sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace." I think the Catholic Church's position officially is that there are seven sacraments (only), but there are many sacramentals - other actions which in one way or another serve as channels of grace. Leo Chouinard leo@hoss.unl.edu
fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) (03/25/91)
In article <Mar.12.04.22.06.1991.1763@athos.rutgers.edu> news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) writes: >In <Mar.11.02.53.13.1991.5555@athos.rutgers.edu> dhosek@linus.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) writes: > >>The old Baltimore Catechism definition of a sacrament is something >>along the lines of a visible sign of grace instituted by Christ to >>show God's love (or some such. I've never actually seen a >>Baltimore Catechism myself). > >Operating from memory (I haven't seen a Baltimore Chatechism in a _long_ >time, but for this sort of thing, my memory is usually pretty good), "a >sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace." I > Leo Chouinard > leo@hoss.unl.edu Ok, I dug out my original "Baltimore" _Catechism_of_Perseverance_ (circa 1850!) and is says: Q. What are the sacraments? A. The sacraments are sensible signs, instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, for our sanctification. Q. Who has instituted the sacraments? A. Our Lord Jesus Christ has instituted all the sacraments. No other could institute them; because God alone can attach to sensible things the power of conferring grace. Q. Why has our Lord instituted the sacraments? A. Our Lord has instituted the sacraments: 1st, to communicate his graces to us; 2d, to aid us by the means of sensible things to comprehend spiritual things; 3d, in order to show us his infinite power, in making use of little things to produce great effects; 4th, to teach us continually that we are all brothers. Q. What is the effect of the sacraments? A. The effect of the sacraments is to sanctify us, either by giving us grace or by augmenting it. Q. What are the elements of the sacraments? A. The elements of the sacraments are the things of which they are composed. These are three in number; the matter, the form, and the minister. And it goes on for pages and pages. Compare this with _An_American_Catholic_Catechism_ (1975, edited by George J. Dyer) which talks about how the sacraments were understood during various eras, and proceeds with five paragraphs to answer "What, then, is a sacrament?": (I summerize) They are rites of incorporation, events of grace, extended thru symbolic and ritual acts. In receiving a sacrament, a person is both receptive to grace or "faith" and resposive in worship. Sacraments are not performed to benefit an individual or the Church. Christ gathers his followers to send them out as heralds. Thus, sacraments are the symbolic or ritual acts of incorporation into the sphere of Christ's grace and mission; in sacraments we demonstrate our receptivity to the Spirit and resposive readiness to worship and serve the Lord, who is both gathering and sending his priestly people into the world. There you have one tradition's view of the subject. -- -- Kathy E.F.Daly -- - -- "A bad .sig file is better than no .sig file at all." Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies (go figure...) Land Line by day: (408)970-4263