cms@gatech.edu (12/24/90)
On the issue of faith and works. Just as some books of the Old
Testament seem to be disputes with one another, the epistles of Paul
and James seem to dispute one another on the issue of faith and works.
One viewpoint is that works are outside the salvific process since
Paul explicitly states that we are saved by faith and not by works.
Another viewpoint is that works are essential to the salvific process
because Paul explicitly states that we are saved by faith and not by
works but James says without works our faith itself is dead and cannot
save us. So, works are essential to our salvation since we are saved
by faith and not by works because we must demonstrate our faith by our
works. Regardless, it seems to me that, rather than taking one side
or the other, we acknowledge that the reason the dispute continues
today is because God values the process by which we come to know Him
within this dispute. Taking one extreme or the other leads to
problems. It is only by acknowledging the importance of both
viewpoints that this particular mystery of God becomes manifest. In
other words, there's no correct resolution, our response to the
question is a test of character.
Comments?
--
Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
emory!dragon!cms
[While I agree that Paul and James have rather different perspectives,
Paul does talk about judgement based on actions. I can't offhand find
a list of all the places, but one is I Thes 4:1-8. I find
Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship" very helpful in the attenpt to
reconcile faith and works. As many others have, he points out that
faith is not a bare belief, but involves trust and obedience. Anyone
who claims to have faith, but does not obey God is deluded. What I
think Paul is primarily arguing against is not the necessity to obey
God, but (1) any concept that by doing so we build up a righteousness
of our own, and (2) the concept that obedience is based on law.
--clh]kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (01/03/91)
Paul and James are in complete harmony with each other. Complete harmony. James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, not before God. What is so important about works before men? It reveals whether or not the faith is living faith or claimed (dead) faith. Anyone can claim to have faith: "What good is it, my brothers, if a man CLAIMS to hav faith but has no deeds? Can SUCH FAITH (claimed faith) save him?" (James 2:14). The implied answer here is no. Why? Because this faith is only claimed. The reality of this is manifest by its lack of works. Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: "If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." I wonder why people always say Paul and James disagree. Get this and mark it down. ** PAUL SAYS THE VERY SAME THING AS JAMES IN ROMANS 2:13 ** Both James and Paul describe a QUALITY of saving faith - obedience. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.3.03.55.37.1991.14138@athos.rutgers.edu>, bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: >Paul and James are in complete harmony with each other. Complete harmony. >James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James >says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith >by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, >not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will be based on our works. >What is so important about works before men? It reveals whether or >not the faith is living faith or claimed (dead) faith. Anyone can >claim to have faith: > While what you say is true, it is more important that we our own selfs realize that if we have no works, then we not only fool others, but most importantly we fool our own self, and even more importantly we try to fool God. It is a hypocrisy to say that I belive in Jesus Christ and then I do not engage in good works at all. If I am correct, hypocrisy was the most often mentioned sin by Jesus. > >Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. The judgement will be based on what I have done. >"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. One of the most important verse in James is the following: James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" What James is clearly teaching is that faith and good works are intertwined. There is a relationship between the two of them which is not understood by many, that is that, we perfect our faith through good works. Not only that, but we are justified by our work also, besides our faith. He says that faith is "wrought" (formed, shaped or made) by works. This is an important principle which has not been taught by many who preach salvation by "faith only", and misslead many who believes that the only thing they have to do is to say that they accepted Christ. Faith and good works are the two different sides of the same coin. You can't have either one of them without the other. One of the problems is that we want to reduce everything to a one or a zero. The fact is that the gospel and truth is multi dimensional. One of the most often used trap is when someone suggest that there are only two possible answer to a question, a yes or a no, when in fact there is at least one more. This is what happens with the question of, those good works save? >I wonder why people always say Paul and James disagree. Get this >and mark it down. > you are right, they don't disagree, but they do discribe a different side of the same coin. There are many contridictions in the scriptures for those who want to bring down the key for the salvation to a very simple answer, like that if you have faith, you are saved. Didn't Paul himself said the following? I Corint 13:13 ************** "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." How can it be that charity (love) is greater then faith? Isn't salvation come only by faith, and by no other means? How can then love be greater then faith? I guess that there are too many who are the followers of Paul, and many only of those teachings of Paul which happens to fit a particular theological point of view. Paul himself warned against this. And Peter gave a warning regarding Paul's teachings when he said the following about it: II Peter 3:16 ------------- "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are somethings hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." We need to be very careful not to misunderstand what Paul was trying to teach. There was a problem with this already during the time he was still alive. We need to read all of the things which are written about a given subject, because that is the only way we can understand the whole truth. What Paul taught about faith must be understood with what James taught about it, otherwise we may get a distorted picture. However, even if we read all of the things which Paul taught about faith and good works, one may also get the correct picture. > >Both James and Paul describe a QUALITY of saving faith - obedience. > Obedience is good works. > >-- > Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu > Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY > University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz > Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403 With brotherly love, Frank
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (01/15/91)
This is a comment on the value of our works in God's Judgement. For a brief background: In article <Jan.9.02.33.50.1991.2463@athos.rutgers.edu>, farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > In article <Jan.3.03.55.37.1991.14138@athos.rutgers.edu>, bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: >>James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James >>says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith >>by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, >>not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, > is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will > be based on our works. >>Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. > The judgement will be based on what I have done. >>"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >>boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. Frank has in interesting way of saying that the explicit words of Scripture are 'rationalization'. Now let me answer some of his points. Q: Does God know our works? A: Of course he does! And this is what he said about them through Isaiah: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" --Isaiah 64:6. What does Scripture say about the Judgement day? In Rev 20:11-15 we read that 'books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ...If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' I conclude that our works only convict us of sin. Only Christ's redemption saves us; through that redemption our names are written in the book of life. > II Peter 3:16 > ------------- > "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are > somethings hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable > wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Frank has harped on this passage several time, as if by it the whole gospel is set aside. But as I believe that all of Scripture is insired by God, so I cannot believe that Peter intended to nullify Paul's statement that we are justified by faith, apart from the law, and that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works (Romans 3:38 and Ephesians 2:8,9). First of all, Peter does not say just which of Paul's teachings were being distorted. Possibly some people were distorting Paul's teachings to say that we are saved by faith without works, so that we can sin as much as we like, and still be saved through faith. I have heard things like this said in defense of homosexuality. But Paul never said this, and Luther never said it either. Paul himself said: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" --Romans 6:1 Note that Paul reasons that our desire to avoid sin is a *result* of our salvation, that we 'died to sin'. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran.
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (01/16/91)
In article <Jan.9.02.33.50.1991.2463@athos.rutgers.edu>, farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > In article <Jan.3.03.55.37.1991.14138@athos.rutgers.edu>, bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: > >Paul and James are in complete harmony with each other. Complete harmony. > >James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James > >says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith > >by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, > >not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, > is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will > be based on our works. Yikes, is that what the paragraph above says? I was talking about James *emphasis*. You drew a conclusion for me which is not my own. Please be careful. Rev 20:11-15 talks about the judgment "according to everything that we do". Paul says the same thing in Romans 2:13. "It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Faith MUST NECESSARILY PRODUCE WORKS. Yes, they are two sides of the same coin. And that coin is a GIFT WE DO NOT EARN. Our ability to do good works is a GIFT which is not earned. One definition of grace is "God's Riches At Christ's Expense." Part of God's "riches" is the ability to do his will, which is the objective proof both before God and man that we are his own. BUT, proof is just that, proof of a reality. That reality is salvation, the works are its proof. Both salvation and the works are part and parcel of this thing we call a gift. If we accept a package labeled salvation but the contents do not include "the ability to do good works", that package did not come from Him. > While what you say is true, it is more important that we our own selfs > realize that if we have no works, then we not only fool others, but most > importantly we fool our own self, and even more importantly we try to fool > God. It is a hypocrisy to say that I belive in Jesus Christ and then I do > not engage in good works at all. I completely agree with what you say here Frank. > >Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. > The judgement will be based on what I have done. Sure they are. So what? That doesn't change Paul's *emphasis* of this passage. Please note: I am not saying that faith can produce 0 works. God too will at judgment produce the record of our works that necessarily must come as a result of accepting his GIFT of salvation (the gift which comes as Paul puts it in Romans 4 "apart from works"). There is a BIG BIG difference between saying that works MUST RESULT from salvation and saying that works is a prerequisite for it. In fact if we rely on "keeping the Law" for salvation, we are cursed. Look at Galatians Chapter 3: "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?...I would like to learn just one thing from you (sarcasm): Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?...Does God give you his Spirit ...because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?...[10] All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law. [11] Clearly no one is justifed BEFORE GOD by the law. From Chapter 2: [15] "We know ... that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, BECAUSE BY OBSERVING THE LAW NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED. Let then say this very carefully: Observing the law is the objective PROOF that we HAVE BEEN justified, not a prerequisite for justification. Is that clear? In fact the most often quoted verse in this thread must be Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith - AND THIS IS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God - NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast". This makes it very very clear that our salvation is not dependent upon our works. What is just as clear is that our works do RESULT from this salvation for the very next verse reads: "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God has prepared in advance for us to do." > >"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to > >boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. One of the most important verse in James is > the following: > James 2:21-22 > ============= > "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" > "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" I must ask, WHO is seeing the works in James 22? That passage you quoted further illustrates what I was trying to say. The first two words, "Seest thou" or in the NIV "YOU SEE" are references to MAN seeing the works. (Yes, God does see them too) > What James is clearly teaching is that faith and good works are intertwined. > There is a relationship between the two of them which is not understood > by many, that is that, we perfect our faith through good works. Not only > that, but we are justified by our work also, besides our faith. He says that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ When one tries to discern whether or not a certain color is darker that another, it is beneficial to look at the one color then other back to back, several times. This method of discernment is in order here. Read the underlined sentence above, then read Ephesians 2:8-9 back to back. Read the underlined sentence above, then read Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace". > have either one of them without the other. One of the problems is that > we want to reduce everything to a one or a zero. The fact is that the gospel > and truth is multi dimensional. One of the most often used trap is when > someone suggest that there are only two possible answer to a question, a yes > or a no, when in fact there is at least one more. Jesus did "reduce it to a one or a zero". There are TWO gates that lead to TWO destinations. There are only two religions in the world really. The religions of Human Achievement (man tries to work his way to God) and the religion of Divine Accomplishment (Christianity). We are either in Cain's line or Abel's. We either resort to "sewing fig leaves" (good works) to cover our sin: GEN 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. or we can let God clothe us with HIS righteousness (not ours): GEN 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. > "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of > these is charity." > How can it be that charity (love) is greater then faith? Isn't salvation > come only by faith, and by no other means? How can then love be greater > then faith? Because salvation exists only because of love! Because love made faith possible! It was Christ's love that gave us an object of faith! Without love, there is no salvation! Without love, there is nothing to have faith in! "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" - Galatians 2:21 Did Christ die for nothing? Of course not. He died because of his LOVE for us. That LOVE was manifest in his obedience to death on the cross. His LOVE in our lives is manifest by our good works, not earned by them. His LOVE doesn't come that cheap. Our salvation can only be made possible by the blood of Christ. And by God's grace I will preach that blood until the day I die. EPH 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. This is the only way we can draw nigh to God. Trying any other way would be like trying to run up the side of Mt. Sinai. For the Glory of God and the Lamb, -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (01/21/91)
In article <Jan.15.04.37.53.1991.12710@athos.rutgers.edu>, math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes: >This is a comment on the value of our works in God's Judgement. For a brief >background: > >In article <Jan.9.02.33.50.1991.2463@athos.rutgers.edu>, farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >> In article <Jan.3.03.55.37.1991.14138@athos.rutgers.edu>, bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: > >>>"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >>>boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > >> This is pure rationalization. > >Frank has in interesting way of saying that the explicit words of Scripture >are 'rationalization'. Let me quote some "explicit words of the scriptures". Here is the quote from James one more time (I believe that what James wrote is also scripture). James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Can you please let me know what this means, if you find my interpretation, which I gave, incorrect? However, please abide by the rule you set so the "explicit words of the scriptures" will not be violated. > Now let me answer some of his points. > >Q: Does God know our works? >A: Of course he does! And this is what he said about them through Isaiah: > >"All of us have become like one who is unclean, > and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" >--Isaiah 64:6. > >What does Scripture say about the Judgement day? In Rev 20:11-15 we read >that 'books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. >The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. >...If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into >the lake of fire.' > >I conclude that our works only convict us of sin. Only Christ's redemption >saves us; through that redemption our names are written in the book of life. > If what you say is in fact true, you have made null the words of Jesus. Again, here are some "explicit words of Scripture", and I hope that you don't mind if I gave it priority over the rationalization and justification of man, for we do strange things to justify our theology. Matthew 5:16 ============ "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:17-20 ============ "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:21 ************ "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 25:34-46 (quoting only verses 34-36) ========================================== "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger and ye took me in:" "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." You have also made null the teachings of the apostles Paul (and others too): Romans 2:6-8 ============ "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," Romans 2:13 *********** "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Gal 6:7 ******* "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he reap." Now, let me tell you that there is no contradiction between what Paul said that we are saved by grace true faith, and that not the hearers only, but the doers of the law are justified. I believe that our problems are that we are using the same words and we mean different things by it. Most Christians who believe in "one heaven and one hell", meaning that all who will receive punishment will receive the same punishment and all who receive salvation will receive the same reward. This is not Biblical at all. Salvation can come by grace only. I am condemned to death because I am sinful, for the penalty for sin is death. Because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, resurrection is a free gift to all, both the good and the bad. Salvation is also a gift to all who believes in Chist. Salvation means that we won't be cast out, as long as we won't commit the unpardonable sin. Exaltation on the other hand has to be earned. This is the reason did Jesus and all of the writers of the Bible taught the importance of good works. Paul clearly taught that not all will be resurrected to the same glory. I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Jesus himself said that there are many mensions in his Father's house. John 14:2 ========= "In my fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go prepare a place for you." This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. However, one will receive the glory which is comparable to the glory of the sun and another will receive glory which is comparable to the glory of the faintest star in the heavens. This plan which was taught by Paul is a just plan. Jesus did for us which we couldn't do for our own self, and we will receive our reward based on our works. This speaks well of the mercy and the justice of our God. > >David H. Wagner >a confessional Lutheran. With brotherly love, Frank
charles@rpi.edu (Charles K. Hurst) (01/24/91)
In article <Jan.20.14.24.11.1991.14119@athos.rutgers.edu> farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: ... >This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and >commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. >However, one will receive the glory which is comparable to the glory of >the sun and another will receive glory which is comparable to the glory >of the faintest star in the heavens. Well, Frank, since there will be no sickness, sadness, or sorrow in heaven, I might well point out that it is not going to make any difference to me in heaven if you drive a mercedes and I drive a rabbit. It's HEAVEN, dude! Get real, I don't even think I will suffer regret, since that would produce sorrow. Works is a reaction to the work that ONLY God can do in our lives. I know. I've tried to "be good" on my own, and it never works. Why are you so hung up on doing better than others? Why do I say that? Because you got this focus that the "righteous" are going to do better than the "just-barely- made-its". If you take that attitude you are right back to trying to work your way to heaven. The bible tells us that the angels rejoice EVERY time someone gets saved, and they don't care who. I think God has the same attitude towards us that will get to heaven. Remember the parable about the wedding feast, where God invites all the rich and righteous people to attend, but none of them will come, so he tells his servants what? To go out and get the "scum" of the area, the beggars, the lame, the sick, the social outcasts, etc. Do you think any of those beggars would have given a rip if one of the "righteous" people made it also? They were probably all just massively glad that God allowed them to attend! Notice that they all were given the same garment, I take this to signify their equalness in God's sight. Anyway, these are just a few of my thoughts. Love-in-Christ, Charles K. Hurst
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (01/24/91)
In article <Jan.20.14.24.11.1991.14119@athos.rutgers.edu>, farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > Let me quote some "explicit words of the scriptures". > > Here is the quote from James one more time (I believe that what James wrote > is also scripture). > > James 2:21-22 > ============= > "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" I too believe that this is scripture inspired by God. The question is, since it obviously appears to contradict Paul's clear teaching, then how do we understand it? The clear context is given by James in ch 2, verse 20: "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" James is preaching against those who think they can be saved by and empty faith that produces no works. He cites the example of Abraham's obedience when he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. He says: "...his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' " This statement, 'Abraham believed God', (Gen 15:6) was made long before Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac. Paul even mentions that this statement was made even befor Abraham was circumcised. So Abraham stood justified before God long before this great work cited by James. So in what sense did his works make his faith perfect? In light of what Paul clearly says concerning justification by faith apart from works, I have to conclude that Abraham's faith was strengthened through this test. He was brought closer to God. And just as Abraham showed such great faith that he was willing to obey God to the point of sacrificing his own son, so too would God be faithful in his promise to send his only begotten son to suffer death to save us from our sins. Abraham's obedience also means that we know what sort of faith he had. His faith was one that produced works -- and so should ours. This is exactly what James is talking about. > If what you say is in fact true, you have made null the words of Jesus. > Again, here are some "explicit words of Scripture", and I hope that you > don't mind if I gave it priority over the rationalization and justification > of man, for we do strange things to justify our theology. > > Matthew 5:16 > ============ > "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and > glorify your Father which is in heaven." > > Matt 7:17-20 > ============ > "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree > bringeth forth evil fruit." > > "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring > forth good fruit." > > "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into > the fire." > > "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." None of these talk about salvation. In fact the last sentence summarizes the meaning clearly: by their fruits shall you know a christian. But God knows our hearts, and he knows our faith. Since we cannot know people's hearts, we can only deal with them according to their confession of faith and their works. > Matthew 7:21 > ************ > "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom > of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." > > Matt 25:34-46 (quoting only verses 34-36) > ========================================== > "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my > Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the > world:" > > "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me > drink: I was a stranger and ye took me in:" > > "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, > and ye came unto me." I've dealt with this passage previously, but to summarize: Jesus holds forth the works of the believers, works which they do not even know they have done, as an example to the unbelievers to show they are justly condemned. > You have also made null the teachings of the apostles Paul (and others too): > > Romans 2:6-8 > ============ > "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient > continuance in well doing seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal > life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but > obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," > > Romans 2:13 > *********** > "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers > of the law shall be justified." Again, these passages simply state that God is a just God. But none of us are 'doers of the law', none of our deeds deserve eternal life. Acting purely out of grace, God inflicted the punishment we deserve on Christ. So the sin is still punished, but out of grace it will not fall on us. In fact Paul clearly summarizes this section of Romans in Rom 3:9-20, where he starts with: "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God'..." And he concludes with: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, wo that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous [justified] in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." That summarizes the whole point of Romans 1:18-3:8. It is pure law, preached for the point of convincing us that our works cannot save us. Then he begins with the gospel: "But now a righteousness *from God*, *apart from law*, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." > Gal 6:7 > ******* > "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, > that shall he reap." Again, this is not talking about justification, but about sanctification; it encourages the believer to do good works. > Salvation can come by grace only. I am condemned to death because I am > sinful, for the penalty for sin is death. Because of the atoning sacrifice > of Christ, resurrection is a free gift to all, both the good and the bad. > Salvation is also a gift to all who believes in Chist. Salvation means > that we won't be cast out, as long as we won't commit the unpardonable sin. To some this may sound close to a christian message, but there are several errors. First, the scriptures teach that *salvation* is a free gift, Ephesians 2:8,9. There is a resurrection of both believers (the good) and unbelievers (the bad). This was revealed long ago to Daniel, to whom it was said: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2 But for the unbeliever, I do not think that a resurrection to "everlasting shame and contempt" is a gift! :-) Also Jesus says of the judgement day: "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." -- Matt 25:32 And he says of the goats: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" --Matt 25:46 > Exaltation on the other hand has to be earned. This is the reason did Jesus > and all of the writers of the Bible taught the importance of good > works. Paul clearly taught that not all will be resurrected to the same > glory. Could you explain to me where it is written that we must earn some level of 'exaltation'? I would say that in many places Jesus taught the law to convict us of sin, e.g., 'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.' This shows us that we cannot earn our salvation, that we need Christ's redemption. Likewise he said: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Matt 5:20 Indeed, the only righteousness that is of any use at all is Christ's. In other places Christ urged us in sanctification so that we can be effective witnesses to him: 'Let your light shine before men, that they may see you good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.' He did not say 'that you may earn a better salvation'. > I Corint 15:41-42 > ***************** > "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and > another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star > in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Here, I am afraid you are clearly distorting the meaning of the text. Paul is not saying there are different levels of salvation, but he is contrasting our mortal bodies with our mortal ones. For he continues this passage with: "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." So just as one God can make a moon, and a sun, and huge numbers of stars, all different, yet all physical bodies, so at the resurrection we will have a physical body, which is truly 'ours', yet imperishable and glorious. > > John 14:2 > ========= > "In my fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told > you. I go prepare a place for you." I have to agree that there is room enough for all of us. How else can you possible interpret this statement? > This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and > commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. Depending on how you define 'unpardonable sin' and 'cast out', this might be close to a christian message. But rejecting Christ must mean not believing in him; the unpardonable sin is the same. The 'sin against the Holy Spirit' is a complete rejection of Christ by one who has been a believer, Hebrews 6:4-6; they are lost also. To be 'cast out' means to be cast in to the eternal Lake of Fire; Rev 20:10-15, Matt 25:41,46. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "The Law commands and makes us know What duties to our God we owe; But 'tis the Gospel must reveal Where lies our strength to do His will. "The Law discovers guilt and sin And shows how vile our hearts have been; The Gospel only canb express Forgiving love and cleansing grace. "What curses dotht the Law denounce Against the man that fails but once! But in the Gospel Christ appears, Pard'ning the guilt of num'rous years. "My soul no more attempt to draw The life and comfort from the Law. Fly to the hope the Gospel gives; The man that trusts the promise lives." --"The Law Commands and Makes Us Know" --Isaac Watts, 1709 --(Tune: Old Hundredth) --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #289 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (01/25/91)
> Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 23-Jan-91 RE: FAITH AND > WORKS blosser@lrc.uucp (8402) > Re faith and works. I used to think that it was easy: God does it all. > God > doesn't save me on the basis of anything I do. In fact, God saves me > neither > because of my works, nor even my faith, nor the beliefs I have, but > exclusively > because of Christ's atonement and for His good pleasure. Isn't that > right? > It's Christ who saves us, not our works or our faith or our beliefs. > That's > why God can save those who can't believe, because their infants or > insane. But > there's still no salvation outside of Christ. > As I said, I used to believe that it was pure and simple: All Christ, me > nothing. Just in clarification...I don't think I or Gene or anyone else addressing "salvation through faith" (not to oversimplify or ignore grace) intended to give this impression. What is required of US is a deliberate, conscious decision (perhaps more accurately described as a surrender) to follow Jesus's instructions before my own desires. I wouldn't call that a "work"...and I won't say that this "mindset" is brought about entirely separate from the Lord's influence. God doesn't just grab our minds and turn them around so we are mentally forced to become a Christian, but rather He lets us know there's an offer available. We can still choose to accept or reject it...but if we accept, he works the spiritual change, not us. So both we and God have a role, but ours is chiefly whether or not to respond to His calling. I don't propose to reduce salvation to a formula; different people have differing degrees of tangible-ness of experience. I don't think "experience" is much of a criterion to use...I know a lot of people who are saved but can't say "I was saved on xx-yy-zz." Anyway, what really matters is whether or not Jesus is Lord of YOU. (not you reading...you generic, knowhutimean?) If a person can say that He is, then I don't think there's any cause for concern. Sure, we all sin...but He knows that. I think most (all) Christians do their best not to...and God looks on the heart. Jesus is Lord Vince Mulhern
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (01/26/91)
In article <Jan.24.03.19.46.1991.26440@athos.rutgers.edu>, charles@rpi.edu (Charles K. Hurst) writes: >In article <Jan.20.14.24.11.1991.14119@athos.rutgers.edu> farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >... >>This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and >>commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. >>However, one will receive the glory which is comparable to the glory of >>the sun and another will receive glory which is comparable to the glory >>of the faintest star in the heavens. > >Well, Frank, since there will be no sickness, sadness, or sorrow in heaven, >I might well point out that it is not going to make any difference to me in >heaven if you drive a mercedes and I drive a rabbit. It's HEAVEN, dude! >Get real,..... I guess that your are one of those who don't believe that we will be rewarded by our good works. I find this quite un-Biblical. I assume that you also think that we all will be joint heirs with Christ, regardless if one had more faith and more good works then another. I find all this quite un-Biblical. Sorry the way you feel. For our Heavenly Father wants to give you all what he has, and you have no appreciation of it at all. You don't hold his gifts in a great estime at all. He wants to give you all, and you say that you want only part of it. What a rebuke of his love, grace and mercy. I remember what happened to the people of Isreal, to whom God promised to reveal himself in the wilderness. They said, said no thanks. They wondered in the wilderness for 40 years and only two, not even Moses, were allowed to enter into the promissed land. Is the empty sentimentality which you use suppose to cancel out teachings in the Bible? I hope that you do accept what Paul says about this subject. Romans 2:6-8 ============ "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," For some reason he didn't feel the same way as you do. In fact he took the promises quite seriously. He urged others: Philippians 2:12 ================ "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." >Love-in-Christ, > Charles K. Hurst With brotherly love, Frank
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (01/27/91)
In article <Jan.23.04.03.05.1991.2120@athos.rutgers.edu> blosser@lrc.uucp writes: >Jan. 19, 1991 > >From another perspective, >however-- and this can certainly be supported biblically-- there is no faith >apart from works (James). Protestants typically distinguish the two by saying >that true faith is never alone, that works follow in the train of true faith; >and thereby they permit themselves to retain the claim that works are wholly >incidental to salvation, that salvation is based entirely on Christ's grace >appropriated by faith. But I've come to see a problem in that. True: there is no faith apart from works. But what kind of works, and with what motivation? Are these works acts whereby you hang your body on "thus says the Lord", i.e., claiming God's promises for your particular situation? For example, God said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." When a disciple hears the call of God to do whatever, and subsequently gets discouraged and wants to quit, faith grabs this promise and continues on. If you're poor and yet you read in Malachi that God says you're robbing Him if you're not delivering the tithes to His storehouse (i.e., the place or teacher where you are taught God's word), and He also says that if you deliver these tithes He will pour out blessing you can't contain, faith sees this as a promise and starts tithing to the storehouse. Faith hangs onto God's promise that the Lord will provide. Faith participates in the physical act, the focus, called the communion, with the perspective that God's gift of grace and forgiveness (symbolized by the blood/wine) is free, unmerited, and so also is His gift of healing (symbolized by the bread/body). (By the way, the way you prepare for communion is NOT by looking at your own unworthiness, but by looking at Christ's worthiness. No one is ever worthy to partake.) These works do not include, for example, forcing yourself not to hate, keeping your body healthy, going to church every sunday, circumcision, vegetarianism, feeding the poor, etc. It's the attitude that counts. You cannot become righteous by trying, even if it involves feeding the poor. You may have fed many poor people, or built houses for them, but that does not make you more righteous. It is either a fruit of righteousness, or legalism. You become righteous by hanging your body in faith on a promise of God, every day. The righteousness which will result (i.e., sanctification) is not in any way cooperation between you and the Lord. The way to grow righteousness is by sowing the seeds of faith. >First, whatever the precise relationship between them, there are two things >that are unequivocally commanded by God through Scripture, tradition, and >Church: (a) faith in Christ, and (b) good works. And it is unequivocally >clear that God expects BOTH of those whom He claims as His children. He also promises to, as it were, put those good works into us, for our faith. Our responsibility is to act in faith. Remember to rightly define faith. >Now, what's the point? This: if salvation was purely a matter of juridically >imputing the righteousness of Christ to the sinner, and not also a matter >conditional upon the actual transformation of the sinner, by degrees, into >a Saint by the cooperation of his or her own efforts, then why should we >trouble ourselves with trying to be Christlike? Exactly!! We shouldn't! That's Christ's job. He plants His life in us for our faith. Faith is not equivalent to belief. Belief is only the mental part of faith. But acts of faith are completely different from trying to be Christlike. >The argument isn't over the existence of a place called Purgatory. It's >over what's necessary for salvation. And if we see that God wants us pure >in heaven, that He expects us to struggle towards that perfection in this >life, and that we shouldn't presume that He's going to somehow magically >do the work of transforming our inclinations and dispositions for us, then >we must say that there is a sense in which we must cooperate with God in >"working out our salvation, knowing that it is God who works in us." (Phil.) Yes, if he wants us to struggle towards that perfection in this life. But he doesn't. The extreme protestant view has missed the point by saying that we don't have to do anything; however, the extreme catholic misplaces our efforts. We work out our salvation by phobia and trauma (rough cognates of the actual greek words); that is, we should fear lest, a promise being left to us, we should fail to take hold of it (rough translation of somewhere around Heb. 11). We should fear to fall into one single day without acting in faith. Yesterday's faith doesn't count for today. >We must find ourselves on our knees at the foot of the cross, confident >in Christ's promises, yet not presuming upon his mercy. In fear and trembling >we must seek those good works that are the fruit of our faith and the necessary >condition of our sanctification and eventual entree into the birthing chambers >of heaven. > >Regards, >Phil Don't put the fruit below the trunk and roots. Don't put the cart before the horse. Good works are not the necessary condition of our sanctification. All they are are a sign. If your works aren't measuring up (on that personal standard between you and God, more important than any external standard), then that is probably a sign that you aren't faithing, and thus not connected to the Source of life. John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put." - Dylan
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (01/30/91)
In article <Jan.27.03.54.40.1991.19431@athos.rutgers.edu>, johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >In article <Jan.23.04.03.05.1991.2120@athos.rutgers.edu> blosser@lrc.uucp writes: >>Now, what's the point? This: if salvation was purely a matter of juridically >>imputing the righteousness of Christ to the sinner, and not also a matter >>conditional upon the actual transformation of the sinner, by degrees, into >>a Saint by the cooperation of his or her own efforts, then why should we >>trouble ourselves with trying to be Christlike? > >Exactly!! We shouldn't! That's Christ's job. He plants His life in us >for our faith. I believe that you are carrying your theology to its logical conclusion and leave any responsibilities we have out of it. This is not what I get when I read *all* what is written on the subject in the Bible. Let me give you two examples: James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Here we can see that: 1. Abraham was justified by works. 2. Abraham's faith was shaped and formed by his work. Paul also said that we are justified by our works. Genesis 4:6-7 ============= "And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?" "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door...." The idea that the only thing which we need to do is to accept Christ into our heart and good works will pour out of us with out any effort on our part at all is a false teaching. I wonder what Abraham and Sarah would tell us of their feelings when Abraham went to sacrifice his son, as he was commended to do. I wonder about the stoggles which they had, and the heaviness of heart as he took his only child from Sarah to be sacrificed. I don't believe for one second that the sacrifices which are made by many who follow Christ comes easy, at no cost at all. I believe that God give us sufficient faith for us to act upon. But act upon we must. The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25 is a good example what happens. All three of the servants received money, but one has done nothing with it, and was severly condemned. Matt 25:29-30 ============= "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abunbance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is the significants of what James said when he reffered to the fact that Abraham perfected his faith through works. It is true that the three servants received money (grace), but it is also true that *they* had to go and do something with it. I find it ammazing that many who *follow* Paul's teachings can be so off balanced that they actually end up in opposation of the teachings of the Savior himself. >Yes, if he wants us to struggle towards that perfection in this life. But >he doesn't..... I would like to strongly disagree with this statement. Jesus said exactly the opposite in the Sermon of the Mount. Matthew 5:48 ============ "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." >The extreme protestant view has missed the point by saying >that we don't have to do anything; however, the extreme catholic misplaces >our efforts. We work out our salvation by phobia and trauma (rough cognates >of the actual greek words); that is, we should fear lest, a promise being >left to us, we should fail to take hold of it (rough translation of somewhere >around Heb. 11). We should fear to fall into one single day without acting >in faith. Yesterday's faith doesn't count for today. > I agree in general with the above statement. However, we are responsible to work out our own salvation as Paul said: Philippians 2:12 ================ "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." As you notice, he is instructing the saints to do this, not those who have not yet accepted Christ. >>Regards, >>Phil > >Don't put the fruit below the trunk and roots. Don't put the cart before the >horse. Good works are not the necessary condition of our sanctification. All >they are are a sign.... I strongly disagree with this statement for the reasons I have mentioned above. That is: 1. We perfect our faith by being engaged in good works. 2. We sanctify ourself through good works. Romans 2:13 *********** "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." > >John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, > I can't stumble or stay put." - Dylan With brotherly love, Frank
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (02/03/91)
In article <Jan.25.00.50.00.1991.13354@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > > Just in clarification...I don't think I or Gene or anyone else >addressing "salvation through faith" (not to oversimplify or ignore >grace) intended to give this impression. Thanks, Vince! ;-) Let me clarify, 'cause I've gotten some email on this over the past few weeks. I do believe that works are important. But I do not believe that human works bring salvation. Works being defined as works of righteousness. I have posted this before, but let me do so again and see if I can clear up some things about what I believe based on my studies. In John 3:16, the English word "believe" is the Greek "pisteuo." The same for the English word "faith" in Eph. 2:8. I've come to the conclusion after studying this word and its associated meaning, that what the text is speaking of is a level of "commitment" that is superior to anything that humans can produce. I believe that the call to all Christians is to become "bond-slaves" of Christ. This means giving up ourselves and our "free will" to Christ to be used of God. I also believe that this is the path that we are lead down once we have come to Christ as our Lord and Savior. The choices that we face after coming to Christ are His will versus our will. Notice that Jesus prayed not for His will to be done but rather the Father's will to be done. And this is the same prayer and attitude that we should strive for -- but I assure you that it is not easy. Often we will find ourselves trying very hard to place our will before that of God's. And this is not meant as a flame to anyone -- I'm saying this knowing that I have done the same thing, and might well do it in the future. Listen to some prayers where the person praying is explaining to God why it would be good for Him to do a certain thing, in a certain manner, within a certain time frame. I can clearly recall offering up such prayers in my early days as a Christian -- I'm glad that my Heavenly Father is a lot more tolerant than my earthly father was. Now, the list of passages that could be quoted relating to doing the will of God is lengthy, and I'll make an assumption here that most of the folks out there know some, many, most of them, or can look them up. So let me concentrate instead on this point -- faith (pisteuo) is make apparent through our works. The faith that is given to us as a gift is made apparent through the works of Faith. For example, there is the fruit of the Spirit. This is a work of the Spirit within us that is manifested openly. And I see a relationship between this and other works of Faith; for example, feeding and caring for the needy. However, let's reverse this for a moment. Suppose that I'm a wealthy man and give the vast majority of my wealth to the feeding of the poor. Have I obtained salvation because of this? Or suppose that I'm not such a wealthy man, but I take that which I have and give it to the poor, have I obtained the gift of salvation? I have no desire to render salvation as some sort of formula -- a receipe for righteousness as it were. But the fact is that faith comes first, then the works. And a good person who has lots of works but has not the gift of faith is not saved. His house is built on sand and not Rock. I know that this is an unpopular view in this age of syncretism, but I am constrained by what I read the Bible to say. And I have to also point out that a person claiming to be a Christian who does not display the works of Faith needs to be questioned closely. Now as to what works I can offer to God that will gain my salvation -- I say none. Some say that repentance is a good work, but I maintain that repentance is the result of the gift of Faith. Remorse is not repentance. Repentance sees my sin for what it really is from God's point of view. Remorse sees my sin merely from my point of view. Remorse does not lead to the results that repentance does. When we repent we turn away from our previous course of action and move in the opposite direction. I like the word that Vince uses -- surrender. Repentance yields a surrender of our lives to God, a surrender of our wills to the Will of God, and the sacrifice of our lives to God as a living sacrifice. The other side of this question is whether or not our salvation is eternally secure -- despite our human frailties. I have said that I believe it is. I believe this because first of all the work of salvation is not a human work, but the eternally complete work of God in Jesus Christ. This work of God lacks nothing and is sufficient for all. Those who come to Christ are in His care. Now it would seem rather odd that Christ could not keep His from falling away. Is our God so weak, our Lord so puny, that together they cannot keep those that believe, despite their human frailties? En Agape, Gene
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (02/03/91)
In article <Jan.30.04.33.18.1991.16514@athos.rutgers.edu> farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >In article <Jan.27.03.54.40.1991.19431@athos.rutgers.edu>, johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >>In article <Jan.23.04.03.05.1991.2120@athos.rutgers.edu> blosser@lrc.uucp writes: >>>. . . then why should we >>>trouble ourselves with trying to be Christlike? >> >>Exactly!! We shouldn't! That's Christ's job. He plants His life in us >>for our faith. > >I believe that you are carrying your theology to its logical conclusion and >leave any responsibilities we have out of it. This is not what I get when I >read *all* what is written on the subject in the Bible. Let me give you two >examples: > >James 2:21-22 >============= >"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made >perfect?" > >"Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made >perfect?" > >Here we can see that: > > 1. Abraham was justified by works. > > 2. Abraham's faith was shaped and formed by his work. > >Paul also said that we are justified by our works. Please tell me where Paul said that we are justified by our works. If you read the whole book of Romans you'll find Paul setting up the Law over all of mankind (not just the Jews but the Gentiles). In the first few chapters (up to chapter 3 v. 20), Paul says that the Law, in order to impart righteousness and eternal life to those who would follow it, must be followed to the utmost, perfectly, and always: "... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (ch. 2 v. 7). But keep reading: "There is none righteous; no, not even one" (ch. 3 v. 10). Paul's purpose in these initial chapters--as was one of Jesus's purposes in the Sermon on the Mount-- was to show that it is impossible to follow the law; all the law can do is to convict of sin. "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith [not just belief] in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who faithe [not just believe]. . . . Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (Romans ch. 3 vv. 21-28). And from here until the end of chapter 8 Paul expands on the theme: "I do what I don't want to do, and the good I want to do I don't do" (ch. 7 v.15 etc.); "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" (ch. 8 v. 1; BTW, the little phrase in v. 1 right after this in the KJV, "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit", was added by the KJV translators.); "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we now serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (ch.7 v.6). We serve God in the newness of a gloriously restored relationship, with utmost obedience and trust, and God takes care of making us spotless; we don't have to. (By the way, when I say `follow the law', I mean any attempt to work for our justification, not just following the Jewish Torah.) >The idea that the only thing which we need to do is to accept Christ into >our heart and good works will pour out of us with out any effort on our >part at all is a false teaching. I wonder what Abraham and Sarah would tell >us of their feelings when Abraham went to sacrifice his son, as he was >commended to do. I wonder about the stoggles which they had, and the >heaviness of heart as he took his only child from Sarah to be sacrificed. >I don't believe for one second that the sacrifices which are made by many >who follow Christ comes easy, at no cost at all. I never said that the only thing we need to do is accept Christ into our hearts. There is a call laid upon us. Abraham and Sarah must have, many times, felt the weight of this call. My call is not your call. But nobody's call is to get up in the morning and, for example, commit to God to have no sexually impure thoughts for as much of the day as is possible. Or to not have violent feelings toward your idiot neighbor. Or to not want to go out and try to make money because you might open yourself to the temptation of materialism. Okay, so what is the call, the cost? Well, for one, the Gospel must go out to the world, in the language of the world, not in Latin or 16th century English, for example. William Tyndale, the great English reformer/translator, paid the cost of following the call with hardship during his life, and martyrdom at the hands of King Henry VIII. This was because he was determined that the English would have the Bible in their own language. He faced odds that, without the Spirit of God working in him, would be insurmountable. He faced them with faith in God's promises, and for his faith, God put His life into him, and in the end gave him eternal life. Our call is either to be one who spreads this message (an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor-teacher, see Eph. 4: 11-13), or one who supports one of these God-given ministers (this is not to deny that we should in our own personal situation be witnesses of the Gospel to our friends, family, co-workers, etc.). Personal holiness? I hear a lot about that and it almost sounds like personal hygiene (spelling?). It should not be treated that way, the way we normally interpret the word holiness (i.e., constant vigilance over our thoughts and actions, are they pure?, unselfish?, loving?, etc.) Holiness, properly understood, means separation, and in the case of the Christian it means separation to God. We should be vigilant that we be separated to God each day. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done. . ." >I believe that God give us sufficient faith for us to act upon. But act >upon we must. The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25 is a good example >what happens. All three of the servants received money, but one has done >nothing with it, and was severly condemned. I agree. Peter had to get out of the boat in order to complete his faith that he could walk on water if he kept his eyes on Jesus. Peter had to do something. This is not at all the same as trying to imitate the fruit of the Spirit. >>Yes, if he wants us to struggle towards that perfection in this life. But >>he doesn't..... > >I would like to strongly disagree with this statement. Jesus said exactly >the opposite in the Sermon of the Mount. > >Matthew 5:48 >============ >"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This is Jesus's underscoring of the ultimate demand of the law, which reaches to the intentions of the heart, if you would be righteous by following the law. Jesus doesn't want perfection from us; he wants trust. If you expected perfection from your spouse, the marriage wouldn't last very long. You have every right to expect trust, and to expect that both of you will work on the marriage. What do you want from your kids, perfection or trust? Jesus never tolerates sin, but he tolerates us sinners. In his timetable he will eradicate every blemish and sin (but the job won't be complete until we die). These moments of eradication will come in the form of a prompting from inside (which you will not be able to deny) to try and overcome some little sin, or maybe a big one; He gives you the power to do it. And it's not your responsibility to go out and create such opportunities. And often it doesn't happen this way. I think most of the time the Lord cleanses you behind your back, as it were, and you find yourself not doing things you once did, or hanging out with people that you used to. Let the Lord do it. "Love God and do what you will." I think Augustine said this. One last word about Abraham our father in faith. He faithed in God, and God credited it to him as righteousness. Right then and there. The present reality (Abraham's faith) and the eternal consequence (Abraham's righteousness before God) met at that one moment, and needed no action in the future to make it complete. However, it is not true that once you are saved you are always saved. It's more like, "Once safe, you are more likely to be safe in the future." Eternal life is more like an electric mass transit system than an automobile. You don't get eternal life by storing up the gasoline of good works in your tank. You get it by maintaining contact with the electric power line (God's promises) that is within your reach everywhere you go. Abraham could have sacrificed Isaac without faith, and there would have been no benefit to him. James fails to mention that Abe said to his servants at the bottom of the mountain, "We (i.e., Isaac and I) shall return." Abe did the act (or at least tried to) with the promise in mind that "through Isaac shall your descendants be numbered." Abe faithed that God would raise up Isaac after he killed him. (See Heb. 11:17-19.) >However, we are responsible to >work out our own salvation as Paul said: > >Philippians 2:12 >================ >"Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence >only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation >with fear and trembling." > >As you notice, he is instructing the saints to do this, not those who have >not yet accepted Christ. This only underscores the need for constant faith actions, every day. It doesn't necessarily mean that we should be constantly concerned about doing good works. It all hinges on what is meant by 'work out your salvation.' Let me reiterate: >>Don't put the fruit below the trunk and roots. Don't put the cart before the >>horse. Good works are not the necessary condition of our sanctification. All >>they are are a sign.... > >Romans 2:13 >*********** >"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers >of the law shall be justified." See what I said above about the book of Romans. And then go read the book of Galatians. John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put." - Dylan
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (03/30/91)
In article <Mar.25.05.12.45.1991.7991@athos.rutgers.edu> gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet writes: > How do Protestants interpret Matthew 7:21 where Jesus says "Not everyone >who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who >does the will of my Father who is in heaven"? > Doesn't this verse say that Jesus believed in good works as a means of > salvation rather than faith alone, or there another way to read this? > -Gilberto Simpson (The moderator comments) >[The simplest response would be simply to cite John 6:40: "For this is >the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in >him should have eternal life." That is, doing the will of the Father >means in the first place to have faith in Christ. While I agree that it is the will of the Father that we have faith in Christ, I think this statement is incomplete by itself. In the first place I think when we want to understand a scriptural quotation we should look at its immediate context before trying to find other scriptures on the subject. The context of Gilberto's quote is the "Sermon on the Mount." I consider this to be the greatest sermon on true righteousness ever given. So what is the context of this statement? Give alms to the poor, but don't do it to be seen of men. Be a peacemaker. Suffer persecution without reviling, in fact turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Not only must we refrain from adultery but even from lust. Avoid divorce. Don't judge your brother but work on the "beam in your own eye." Be perfect! (A rather tall order deserving of a thread all its own.) etc. etc. Further, Gilberto's quote immediately precedes the "Parable of the Wise and Foolish Men" with which Jesus closes this sermon. Hearing these sayings (certainly including the teachings in this sermon) and *doing* them is likened to building a house on a rock. Not doing them is likened to building on sand. Clearly Jesus wants us to do what he tells us to. I think we can say that Jesus is the rock and we build on that foundation by doing what he asks. He asks us to both have faith in him and to obey his commandments. (cf John 14:15) Faith, in fact, is probably more of a verb than a noun. It must be active. As the moderator comments it is far more than intellectual assent. Maybe James gives us the key when he urges us to show our faith by our works (James 2:18). I think it is foolish to talk of a faith without works, the term includes works. With this understanding the controversy of salvation by faith or works ceases to exist. We are saved by the grace of Jesus through our faith. That faith must include loving obedience to the Lord or it is not faith. (I should add that there are some comparisons of faith and works in Paul's letters wherein he seems to oppose the 2. However, in every case I can think of the works he is talking about are not the sort of works described in Matthew 5-7. Instead they are the works of the Law of Moses. I think Paul is saying that the ceremonies etc. of the Mosaic law are now useless. Paul himself often admonishes us to live righteously.)