James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (03/27/91)
In a previous article Kenn R. Stump wrote (about forgiveness of sins): [that certain sins are...] |> |> Only unforgivable AFTER you have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. |> Otherwise, how would the system of salvation work? |> I disagree for the following reasons: 1) The above would imply that we are "saved by faith but kept by works" in so much as: through having faith in Jesus/God we will be saved, but in being saved we must not sin 'lest we fall from grace' and be 'lost forever'. This is not a position that is supported in the Bible. Faith and works can never be mixed, you are either saved by God's grace OR you work your way to salvation by not sinning, how can there be a mixture ? If you are saved by grace then works (deeds, sinning) no longer matter, because if they do then that grace is no longer 'real' grace. Similarly, if you are saved by works then your faith or your beliefs can not matter/be taken into account, because then those works are no longer 'real' works. (NOTE: This is a post-Christ, New Testament philosophy !) 2) It also would tend to imply that there are some sins that are too great even for God to forgive - surely an impossibility for an omnipotent God ? 3) Who decides which sins are unforgivable ? The sins quoted seem to have been picked by humans ! Does the list of 'unforgivable' sins mean that 'other' sins are less important ? Which, then, is the most important commandment ? It is not for humans to decide for God what he will or won't forgive, which commands EVERYONE must obey, etc. In Christianity each person makes their own rules for themselves ! (I may explain this one day ! :-) Hence: It is not for us to decide what is sin for everyone else, rather it is each individual to decide what is sin for them (within the confines of their faith, not someone else's faith !) and to live by that ! Who are we to `judge the servant of another master` ? It is God who will decide whether they succeed or fail, and they will succeed, because God is on their side ! Therefore: Issues such as Masturbation, Homosexuality, Suicide, et al are not RELIGIOUS issues any more ! They may be better described as PHILOSOPHICAL issues, not affecting salvation at all ! I think that we must address issues as they stand, not from what OUR God says. (Buy OUR God, I mean the aspect of God that we see, which, because we are individuals, means that I can not 'experience' the God that another person, even a Christian, experiences/perceives) ---------- On the subject of masturbation: In lengthy discussions with my friends, and after the reading of many 'Christian' authors (Who take the position: "This is what God says - TAKE MY WORD FOR IT OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL !!!") and my knowlege about what the Bible says, I have come to the conclusion that: God approves of masturbation (mine, theirs, anyone's God !) There is no other logical conclusion (NOTE: I welcome open-minded disagreement !) ---------- By the way, has anyone noticed that the majority of the messages posted to this group are from MEN (and many of the messages deal with the social control issues/aspects of Christianity i.e. masturbation, marriage, homosexuality, etc.) while the majority of church-going people are WOMEN ? Perhaps Kathy, Cathy, Susan, Ann or some other women might like to comment or shed a little light on this ??? Appologies for the length of the message - I congratulate you on getting through it :-) !! Jim.
mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) (04/01/91)
Someone quote a line that I missed in my glazed-over reading of this thread: > [that certain sins are...] > |> Only unforgivable AFTER you have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. > |> Otherwise, how would the system of salvation work? I have to comment that anyone trying to discern a "system of salvation" is doing something very strange indeed! This amounts to trying to "pin God down" -- but to what possible purpose? to manipulate the "system" to one's own benefit? to "stay on the right side of" God? to "know" which of our fellows to "approve" or "disapprove?" All of that is vanity, and is very close to the attitudes Jesus condemns, directly or by contrast with what he *approves* of in the parables. If, in fact you trust God, why are you trying to second-guess him? We know our salvation in the love we experience from God's gift of grace. What else *is* there to know? -- Michael L. Siemon "O stand, stand at the window, m.siemon@ATT.COM As the tears scald and start; ...!att!attunix!mls You shall love your crooked neighbor standard disclaimer With your crooked heart."