[soc.religion.christian] DEATH & HELL-10 - NOT STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/01/91)

Some texts to consider:

     Righteous Able, killed by brother Cain, did not go straight to heaven -
     "And  He  said,  "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood
     cries out to Me from the ground."  --  Gen 4:10  (NKJ)

     "For in death there is no remembrance of You; In  the  grave  who  will
     give You thanks?"  --  Psa 6:5  (NKJ)

     "Will You work wonders for the dead? Shall the dead  arise  and  praise
     You?  Selah   Shall  Your  loving kindness be declared in the grave? Or
     Your faithfulness in the place of destruction?  Shall Your  wonders  be
     known  in  the  dark?  And Your righteousness in the land of forgetful-
     ness?"  --  Psa 88:10-12  (NKJ)

     "The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go  down  into  silence."
     -- Psa 115:17  (NKJ)

     "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;  In  that  very  day  his
     thoughts perish."  (Psa 146:4)

     "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and
     they  have  no  more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.  Also
     their love, their hatred, and their envy have now  perished;  nevermore
     will they have a share in anything done under the sun."  --  Eccl 9:5,6
     (NKJ)

     "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
     to  everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."  --  Dan
     12:2 (NKJ)

     "His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low,
     and he does not perceive it."  --  Job 14:21  (NKJ)

     ""Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch  David,
     that  he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."
     --  Acts 2:29  (NKJ)  ""For David did not ascend into the heavens, .  .
     . ."  --  Acts 2:34  (NKJ)

     No reward (no heaven) until  the  resurrection  -  ""And  you  will  be
     blessed,  because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the
     resurrection of the just." "  --  Luke 14:14  (NKJ)

     The living righteous and the dead righteous will be caught up  together
     to meet the Lord in the air.  (1 Thess 4:17)

Jesus spoke clearly of death being a sleep when He  resurrected  the  little
girl  (Mark  5:39)  and  Lasarus  (John  11:11-14).   An entire post already
devoted to "soul sleep".

In the following text we can see that heaven was not ready  for  the  saints
while Christ was here:

     " "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so,  I  would
     have  told  you.  I  go  to  prepare  a place for you. "And if I go and
     prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you  to  Myself;
     that where I am, there you may be also. "--  John 14:2,3  (NKJ)

In 1 Thess 4:17 we see that the living righteous and the dead righteous will
be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.  And that is when they go
to the heaven now being prepared for them.

It may seem cold and grim to think of spending time in the grave and so much
more  appealing to think of going straight to heaven.  This traditional view
really does not pan out from a full study of the Bible.  It is  much  better
to  think of death as passing in the twinkling of an eye.  Both Adam and the
saved of today will arrive at the resurrection in the same brief instant  of
zero concious time.  Our expectation can indeed be of seeing Jesus coming in
the clouds the instant we die.  There need be nothing to fear of the grave.

WHAT ABOUT PAUL?

Several of you have sited Paul as having expectations of being with Jesus as
soon  as  he  died (Phil 1:23; 2 Cor 5:6-8).  At first glance, and with only
these texts in hand, it would appear that Paul does support the straight  to
heaven  views  that  are  so  popular.  But we have more than these texts to
examine and then quite a different picture of Paul's  expectations  emerges:
Elsewhere we see Paul wishing/hoping that he can be alive when Jesus returns
so that no resurrection will be  necessary  (1  Cor  15:51).   Consider  Heb
10:37; 2 Tim 4:9; Titus 2:13.  In 2 Cor 5:1-4 Paul describes three states 1)
earthly clothing or house; 2) the nakedness of death; 3)  clothed  with  the
'house'  from heaven. Clearly Paul would like to skip the intermediate state
of death as nakedness without the earthly or heavenly house/clothing.   Paul
also  speaks  clearly of the understand that for the dead time passes in the
mere twinkling of an eye.  Here are some key texts of Paul's to consider:

     "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
     be  changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trum-
     pet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised  incorrup-
     tible,  and  we  shall  be  changed.  For  this corruptible must put on
     incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.   So  when  this
     corruptible  has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immor-
     tality, then shall be brought to  pass  the  saying  that  is  written:
     "Death  is  swallowed up in victory."  "O Death, where is your sting? O
     Hades, where is your victory?""  --  1 Cor 15:51-55   (NKJ)   {In  that
     day Hades must give up its sleeping saints to the resurrection}

     "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning  those  who
     have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.  For if
     we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring  with
     Him  those  who  sleep in Jesus.  For this we say to you by the word of
     the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
     will  by  no  means precede those who are asleep.  For the Lord Himself
     will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an  archangel,
     and  with  the  trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
     Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with  them
     in  the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be
     with the Lord."  --  1 Th 4:13-17 (NKJ)

Clearly, "being with the Lord" comes at the 2nd Coming  for  those  who  are
alive  and  at  the  resurrection of His 2nd Coming for those who have died.
Paul offers the assurance that just as Jesus was resurrected, so the  sleep-
ing  saints will be resurrected to be taken by God to meet Jesus in the air.
First the resurrected dead and then we all together will meet  the  Lord  in
the air and from then on we will always be with the Lord.  That is when Paul
anticipated his reward:

     "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who  will
     judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:"  --  2
     Tim 4:1 (NKJ)

     "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the
     Lord,  the  righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me
     only but also to all who have loved His  appearing."   --   2  Tim  4:8
     (NKJ)

Clearly Paul did not anticipate any reward, such as speeding to heaven  when
he  died,  but  rather  his  reward  would  be  at our Lord's return and the
resurrection.

And some more texts from Paul's writings worth considering:

     The Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life  to  your
     mortal bodies.  (Rom 8:11; 2 Cor 4:14)

     "But as it is written: "Eye has not  seen,  nor  ear  heard,  nor  have
     entered  into  the  heart  of man the things which God has prepared for
     those who love Him." "  --  1 Cor 2:9  (NKJ)

     "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now  I  know
     in  part,  but  then I shall know just as I also am known. "  --  1 Cor
     13:12 (NKJ)

     He (Jesus) will put an end to all rule and authority and put all  enem-
     ies under His feet.  His final enemy will be death. (1 Cor 15:24-26)

     "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, . . . .  I  may
     attain  to  the  resurrection  from the dead."  --  Phil 3:10,11  (NKJ)
     {Note here that while Jesus has the power over  death,  Paul  does  not
     anticipate that power being exercised for him until the resurrection.}

How is it that Jesus died to be the Lord of both the  dead  and  the  living
(Romans  14:9),  the  Lord  even of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?  The answer is
clear and simple.  If  there  had  been  no  victory  at  the  cross,  these
patriarches  would  be  doomed  to remain in their graves.  At the cross His
victory offered salvation to mankind both  past  and  future.   Without  His
death  He could neither be our Lord nor the Lord and savior of those already
dead when He died.

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46) --  this  text  was  dealt
with in my post on the "good thief".

Because of the delusions prophecied of the last days it is important that we
clearly understand the powers of Satan and the true condition of the dead.

     "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times  some  will  depart
     from  the  faith,  giving  heed  to  deceiving spirits and doctrines of
     demons, "--  1 Tim 4:1  (NKJ)

A pastor tells the story of a family with twelve children:

     "There were twelve children in that family, and it was a happy home.  I
     loved  to  visit them every time I went to their city.  But one day the
     mother got sick and died.  What a sad funeral!  Twelve little  children
     with their father gathered around a grave.

     "The next time I visited the family, the father was trying to play  the
     role  of both father and mother to those twelve children.  There was so
     much sorrow and heartache as those little children kept  asking,  'When
     is mother coming back?  We want our mother.'

     Could you imagine that mother looking down from heaven and  seeing  her
     children  in  the  their  sorrow?   Would she enjoy the bliss of heaven
     knowing that her family needed her?  I'm afraid she would cry,  'Let me
     go  down  to  my family.  They need me.  This isn't heaven to me when I
     know my family is suffering."

Here is a true story of a Christian living in Seattle.  I'll have to drasti-
cally abbreviate it:

     She considered herself to be a strong Christian and claimed full  alle-
     giance to God.  Her church also taught that at death people go directly
     to heaven.

     She saw an add to come find about Metaphysics at a  local  Metaphysical
     church.   They  sang  religious  hymns  and  appeared to be a Christian
     church. They taught her to communicate with her dead husband.  Soon  he
     began  to appear to her and later in her apartment.  Since she believed
     that souls go to heaven she accepted this as genuine.  The  spirit  was
     soon telling her what to do in great detail - what TV programs to watch
     etc.  Eventually she became a spirit medium and was frankly willing  to
     agree  that the spirit was not her husband but from the devil.  She did
     not want to be delivered and so there was nothing the pastor  could  do
     for her.

Another woman received word that her husband had died in the war.  She  made
contact  with  him at a seance that she was persuaded to attend.  She recog-
nized his voice and they often talked about things that only the two of them
would  have  any way of knowing about.  She was thoroughly convinced that it
was him. Then one day she opened the door to a knock and it was him  in  the
flesh.  He had not died in the war and his wounds were not all that serious.
She was now totally perplexed.  She had been taught that her husband's  soul
had  lived  on  and gone to heaven.  So it seemed logical that he could come
talk to her.  Lying spirits had taken advantage of her loneliness.  She gra-
dually  became  bitter  and disillusioned with all religion.  She discovered
that the notion that people go straight to heaven when they die is a  fraud.
It is indeed a Fraud!

The only safe ground is to read carefully, understand and believe  what  God
has  revealed  in  the  Bible.   And  such  a  confidence can only come from
thoroughly knowing your Bible, and by committing  your  life  completely  to
Him.  Then Satan cannot touch you with his lying wonders.

SHOULD WE WORSHIP ANGELS OR SAINTS?

The Bible speaks of Enoch and Elijah taken bodily to heaven  without  having
seen  death.   I also believe that Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven
(Jude 1:9; Mat 17:3; 9:4).  Moses and Elijah met  with  Jesus  when  He  was
transfigured  on  the  mountain  top (Mat 17:1-7; Mark 9:2-10).  Also, those
resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection (Eph 4:8) would  be  bodily
in heaven.

So, let us ask the question - should we be worshiping them - Enoch,  Elijah,
Moses?   Nowhere  in  the  Bible  is  there  any  hint  that  they are to be
worshipped. Let us study further.

Man was created a little lower than the angels:

     "What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man  that  You
     visit  him?   For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And
     You have crowned him with glory and honor. "  --  Psa 8:4,5  (NKJ)

The author of Hebrews quotes from this passage (Heb 2:6,7).  And  then  goes
on  to  extend  the meaning to include Jesus, the son of man (Heb 2:9).  The
point that I have just made is that if angels should not be worshiped,  then
certainly  men  taken  bodily  to heaven should not be worshiped.  It should
also apply that if there be 'saints' in heaven, then that which  applies  to
the  worship of angels should apply to the worship of saints.  We are not to
worship them.

Here Paul warns that the worship of angels could defraud you of your  salva-
tion:

     "Let no one defraud you of your reward, taking delight in false  humil-
     ity and worship of angels, . . . ."  (Col 2:18)

Then we see the prophet John falling down to worship an angel.

     "Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and  saw,  I
     fell  down  to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these
     things. Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your
     fellow  servant,  and  of  your brethren the prophets, and of those who
     keep the words of this book. Worship God." "  --  Rev 22:8,9  (NKJ)

I know of  nowhere  in  the  Bible  where  angels  allow  themselves  to  be
worshipped. Certainly not in the OT or the NT.  I did a search and found one
place where it comes close  perhaps.   Daniel  falls  down  before  Gabriel,
perhaps in a dead faint, and then:

     "Now, as he (Gabriel) was speaking with me (Daniel), I was  in  a  deep
     sleep  with  my  face  to  the  ground; but he touched me, and stood me
     upright. "  --  Dan 8:18 (NKJ)

Nowhere in the Bible do angels let humans worship them.  The only places  in
the Bible where the worship of angels is encouraged is as found below:

     "Again, the devil took Him up on  an  exceedingly  high  mountain,  and
     showed  Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said
     to Him, "All these things I will give You if You  will  fall  down  and
     worship  me."  Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is
     written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only  you  shall
     serve.' " "--  Mat 4:18-0 (NKJ)

The most likely place Jesus is quoting from is Deuteronomy 6:13.  From read-
ing  how  Satan  tempted  Jesus, it sounds like Satan approached Jesus as an
angel from God.  Why didn't Jesus fall for his scheme?  It is  worth  noting
that Jesus frequently quoted from scripture.  He did not return cunning with
cunning.  Let that be our example.

Also, the Ten Commandments make it clear that only God should be worshipped:

     " "You shall have no other gods before Me. "--  Exo 20:3  (NKJ)

Considering the way in which Jesus dealt with Satan I'd  have  to  say  that
even to be worshipped and Jesus qualifies.

  * I and my Father are one.  (John 10:30)
  * An exact representation of God.  (Heb. 1:3,4)
  * He shone with the glory of God.  (Matt. 17:2)
  * All the fullness of the deity in Him bodily.  (Col. 2:9)
  * The image of the invisible God.  (Col. 1:15)
  * God manifest in flesh.  (1 Tim. 3:16)
  * Thought it not mockery to be equal with God.  (Phil. 2:5,6)
  * Call His name Immanuel.  {Jehovah with us}  (Isaiah 7:14)
  * Emmanuel, which means God with us.  (Matt. 1:22,23)
  * The One and Only from the Father.  (John 1:14)
  * Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, everlasting Father.  (Isaiah 9:6)
  * King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  (Rev. 19:16)

He alone is to be worshiped.

Dave (David E. Buxton)
From the Silicon RainForest of the Northwest