rab7166@venus.tamu.edu (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN) (03/08/91)
Here is something to think about. How would you react to someone who claimed to be the second coming of Christ. I would suspect that he(or she) would be ridiculed a blasphemer(sic), and if we had a religious State which held blasphemy as a crime, he(or she) would most likely be exicuted for his offense against the State(sound familiar). Just think about it when you are condeming the exacutioners of Jesus. What would you do in the same situation. Next time you pick up the National Inquirer and see a story about _Man_Claims_to_be_Christ_ maybe you shouldn't just laugh it off. There is nothing in the Bible that claims that miracles can not happen in 1991. So don't be so narrow minded to believe all of the miracles in the Bible, but ingore all the miracles in the National Inquirer and Sun. Be open-minded -db
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) (03/09/91)
rab7166@venus.tamu.edu (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN) writes: >Here is something to think about. How would you react to someone who claimed >to be the second coming of Christ. I would suspect that he(or she) would be >ridiculed a blasphemer(sic), and if we had a religious State which held >blasphemy as a crime, he(or she) would most likely be exicuted for his offense >against the State(sound familiar). Just think about it when you are condeming >the exacutioners of Jesus. Just because the bahavior of the religious leaders in Jesus' day is understandable doesn't mean it's justifiable. > What would you do in the same situation. Next time >you pick up the National Inquirer and see a story about >_Man_Claims_to_be_Christ_ >maybe you shouldn't just laugh it off. There is nothing in the Bible that >claims that miracles can not happen in 1991. True, but there *is* something in the Bible which claims that a man claiming to be Christ is lying to you: At that time if anyone says to you, ``Look, here is the Christ!'' or, ``There he is!'' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. -- Jesus, Matthew 24:23-25 [After Jesus' ascension] ``Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.'' -- Angels, Acts 1:11 Jesus says not to believe any claims about Christs, and two angels said that the second coming would be like the first leaving, and would feature the same Jesus. That seems enough to cast doubt on anyone's claims to Christhood. > So don't be so narrow minded to >believe all of the miracles in the Bible, but ingore all the miracles in the >National Inquirer and Sun. > > Be open-minded An open mind is like an open mouth, useful only if you have something good to chomp down on. -- G. K. Chesterton, paraphrased -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, uunet!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV)
ww2@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Wm. Scott Whitmore) (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.8.00.29.45.1991.24448@athos.rutgers.edu> rab7166@venus.tamu.edu (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN) writes: >Here is something to think about. How would you react to someone who claimed >to be the Second Coming of Christ. >maybe you shouldn't just laugh it off. There is nothing in the Bible that >says that miracles can not happen in 1991. So don't be so narrow minded to >believe all of the miracles in the Bible, but ingore all the miracles in the >National Inquirer and Sun. > > Be open-minded > > -db "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. 'Tell us,' they said, 'when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming at the end of the age?' Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am the Christ," and will deceive many.' "'At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ!" or "There he is!" do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.' "'...They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.'" (NIV, Matthew 24:3-5,23-25,30-31) When the stuff in Matthew 24:30-31 happens, THEN I'll wager that the Lord has truly come... of course I'll be almost too busy to notice :) Scott Whitmore ww2@beach.cis.ufl.edu uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu "May God bless you thoroughly...and may you have the guts and the sense to accept it."
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.8.00.29.45.1991.24448@athos.rutgers.edu>, rab7166@venus.tamu.edu (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN) writes: > Here is something to think about. How would you react to someone who claimed > to be the second coming of Christ. I would suspect that he(or she) would be > ridiculed a blasphemer(sic), and if we had a religious State which held > blasphemy as a crime, he(or she) would most likely be exicuted for his offense > against the State(sound familiar). Just think about it when you are condeming > the exacutioners of Jesus. What would you do in the same situation. Next time The reason that I and many others would not believe a person who claimed to be Christ is that Christ has said that upon His second coming, we will see him in the air. People will not need to announce his coming or try to convince us that "it is him" because we will know it. Jesus specifically said that if someone goes around saying "Christ is here" or "Christ is there" DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PERSON. Upon his second coming, Christ will gather in His children. Even if we are taking a nap when he shows up, there is no need to worry because he will take us with Him anyway.
billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (03/11/91)
Re : Being open minded. I don't think Jesus' coming will be like the first somehow. Jesus already won the victory two thousand years ago, there is no need to do so again. Jesus' next coming will mark the 'end of the world'. Meanwhile, lets pary that the 'end times' are delayed, there is still much work to be done! Drew.
smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie (03/14/91)
In article <Mar.11.03.16.02.1991.5937@athos.rutgers.edu>, billy@tcom.stc.co.uk ( Billy Khan) writes: > > Re : Being open minded. > > I don't think Jesus' coming will be like the first somehow. Jesus > already won the victory two thousand years ago, there is no need to do > so again. Jesus' next coming will mark the 'end of the world'. Meanwhile, > lets pary that the 'end times' are delayed, there is still much work > to be done! > > > Drew. I agree with you. I feel we must not take the words in the Gospel literary but we must try to find what they symbolize. The people believing in Moses they didn't accept Christ because He didn't come as Kings of Kings. But Jesus was a King in the Spiritual Realm. Why God sent His prophets? Why God sent Jesus? Why God will send Prophets? One answer is that God sends Them to guide us to the salvation of our souls. There is an ever advancing civilization, so the needs of mankind are changing from age to age. When Moses came He spoke about laws in society: tooth to tooth etc. The people at that time didn't had the capacity to understand more. But when Jesus came He spoke about love and how to develop the life of an indivi- dual. He said that the people were not ready to understand all that he wanted to say and the Sun of Truth will come to guide them. And when the apostles ask Him how they'll regognize Him, when He will come again He said that from the fruit you understand the Tree. So I think that the second coming doesn't speak about Christ coming in the same form as 2000 years ago. The reason is that we were created to know and worship God. For our soul to progress we have to pass through tests. If Jesus will come on the clouds, as it is literary stated in the Gospel, do you think any human being is going to doubt His Dominion? No never. But this not the purpose underlying the creation of Man. Man has to find God for himself. Otherwise all this suffering would be useless if at the end so evidently is going to show His power. The clouds I feel have more meanings than the physical one. If we take Christ as sun, we could say that at His second coming His physical body will be like the clouds which prevent us from seeing His true Reality. The Sun is His Spiritual existence and the clouds is His physical reality. So people will not believe in Him because the clouds (physical body) will prevent them from seeing His inner reality (the sun). So there is no need for Jesus to come in the same form as 2000 years ago, because anyway there is no evidence how he looked like. We only have paintings. We will recognize him only by His teachings and actions and His life and here comes what He said that you recognize the Tree from its fruits. Lets not forget that He mentions that He will come as a thief in the night. One meaning of that could be that when He will come people will not recogni- ze Him. So maybe He has already come. Socrates Maanian [smaanian@cs.tcd.ie]
sanders@chopin.udel.edu (Robert M Sanders) (03/19/91)
In article <Mar.14.03.37.58.1991.24610@athos.rutgers.edu> smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie writes: > >Lets not forget that He mentions that He will come as a thief in the night. >One meaning of that could be that when He will come people will not recogni- >ze Him. So maybe He has already come. > >Socrates Maanian >[smaanian@cs.tcd.ie] I know the Bible does say in several places that the Lord will return as a thief in the night, but I always thought that meant that no-one will be aware until He has come that His return has begun (besides the fact that He promised His return.) I was just looking briefly through the Bible and came up with a couple of references that lead me to believe that when Jesus returns to this earth, we WILL KNOW it. (student-NIV) Matt 24:27-31 - "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn." Mark 13:24-27 - "... At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory... ". Luke 21:27 - above quote from Mark. I Thess: 16-17 - "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a load command, with the voice of the arch- angel and with the trumpet call of God..." II Peter 3:10 - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." In the reference from Matthew is also says (vs 4-5): Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming "I am the Christ," and will deceive many.' I've always looked at this (in conjunction with the vs that compares us to sheep, with Jesus as our shepard, as even as the sheep know the voice of their shepherd, so do we know the voice of our Lord) as saying that before the Lord comes, many may be deceived into believing that the Lord has come again. But when the Lord truly comes, I think it would be rather hard to miss. Besides which, on a different angle, looking at Matt 24:36-41 and the thought that the Lord has already come gives rise to some very pointed and relevent questions regarding the truth and commitment of all the Christians I know. Just some thought.... In Him, Rob
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.14.03.37.58.1991.24610@athos.rutgers.edu> smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie writes: > >The people believing in Moses they didn't accept Christ because He didn't >come as Kings of Kings. But Jesus was a King in the Spiritual Realm. However, Jesus will return as King of kings and Lord of lords to establish His earthly, visible reign. That is our Blessed Hope. >Why God sent His prophets? Why God sent Jesus? Why God will send Prophets? >One answer is that God sends Them to guide us to the salvation of our souls. Okay. >There is an ever advancing civilization, so the needs of mankind are changing >from age to age. When Moses came He spoke about laws in society: tooth to tooth >etc. The people at that time didn't had the capacity to understand more. But >when Jesus came He spoke about love and how to develop the life of an indivi- >dual. He said that the people were not ready to understand all that he wanted >to say and the Sun of Truth will come to guide them. And when the apostles ask >Him how they'll regognize Him, when He will come again He said that from the >fruit you understand the Tree. Here we enter into a realm that is not of Christian origins. Civilization has advanced technologically, but not spiritually. In fact, civilization (humanity) is still doing precisely what it has always done. God gave us the Law as a teacher and a mirror into which we must look to gauge our own lives. But the Law itself is not able to save -- only God can save us. One thing that concerns me is this idea that the people of ancient times were somehow less intelligent than we are today. Merely examining their manifest works says that this is not the case -- they started cities, governments, developed laws, and built structures that stand to this day. These are not the works of ignorant people. But as Solomon said, and I paraphrase, there ain't nothing new; we been down this path before in history. Yes, Jesus said that there were things that He could not say at that point, but He also said that He would send one who would teach us all things -- the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Later, it is written that we have an unction with the Father have need that no man teach us. However, I find no reference in the Bible to the "Sun of Truth." Could you please cite a reference (book, chapter and verse would be nice)? The last part of your statement in the paragraph cited above ties in with the following statements, so I'll deal with it there. >So I think that the second coming doesn't speak about Christ coming in the same >form as 2000 years ago. The reason is that we were created to know and worship >God. For our soul to progress we have to pass through tests. If Jesus will come >on the clouds, as it is literary stated in the Gospel, do you think any human >being is going to doubt His Dominion? No never. But this not the purpose >underlying the creation of Man. Well, let's see now, Acts 1:10, 11 says: "And while they [the disciples, including the 11] looked steadfastly toward heaven as he [Jesus] went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel: "Which also said. Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Sounds pretty straitght forward to me. This same Jesus that they saw will come back in like manner. This means physically. Notice that the angels said "this same Jesus" so that there is no doubt that they were talking about the man Jesus, whom we call the Christ (the Anointed One of God). You make a good statement when you say that the reason we were created is to know and worship God. However, I question what you mean by "for our soul to progress..." This sounds like reincarnation, which is not the Christian view. The purpose for Jesus' visible return is to conclude this age. This is clearly stated throughout the Biblical texts. Take a look at Matthew 24, which deals with the second coming of Jesus. In John 14:3, Jesus specifically says that He will come again and receive us to Himself. >Lets not forget that He mentions that He will come as a thief in the night. >One meaning of that could be that when He will come people will not recogni- >ze Him. So maybe He has already come. Actually, Jesus gave the interpretation of this. Check Matthew 24:42-51. What Jesus is saying is that since we do not know the precise moment of His return, we need to stay busy doing what He has commanded us to do. He uses the idea of a man and his house that a thief breaks into and robs. If the man had known at which hour the thief was coming, he would have watched and not suffered the loss. But Jesus tells us to be ever watchful. For what, the return so that it does not take us by surprise. Jesus gave us ample signs to watch for so that we can judge the seasons and know when the time is drawing near. When Jesus returns in the parousia, history as we know it ends and the Millennium begins. En Agape, Gene
tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (04/03/91)
In article <Apr.1.02.59.35.1991.7531@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >In article <Mar.14.03.37.58.1991.24610@athos.rutgers.edu> smaanian@swift.cs.tcd.ie writes: >> >>The people believing in Moses they didn't accept Christ because He didn't >>come as Kings of Kings. But Jesus was a King in the Spiritual Realm. > >However, Jesus will return as King of kings and Lord of lords to >establish His earthly, visible reign. That is our Blessed Hope. Technically speaking, our "blessed hope" is in the fact of Christ's return; His "appearing" according to Titus 2:13. This "blessed hope" has nothing to do with an "earthly, visible reign," and I submit that such a concept is foreign to the New Testament teaching on the nature of Christ and His Church. It is an assumption of premillennialists, based on certain principles of biblical hermeneutics, that Christ's second coming will usher in an earthly reign, the so-called Millennium. One of the premillennialist's principles is that OT prophecies concerning the coming of Messsiah must be taken "literally." As a result, they project into the future certain prophecies which they say cannot have been fulfilled as part of Christ's first coming. The problem with this principle of hermeneutic is that it cannot be supported from Scripture. In other words, there is no Scriptural reason for positing such a principle. In fact, such a principle seems to go completely contrary to the way Jesus and His apostles interpreted the OT prophecies related to the Messiah. And I would submit that a better principle, more overriding, is that the New Testament is the interpreter of the Old Testament. One need only examine a few OT prophecies, and the interpretation given by the New Testament, to see the deficiencies of the premillennial principle. (I should point out that there are many premillennialists who recognize the problem with this approach, and seek other ways of justifying their position. There are also many former premillennialists, like myself, who attempted to do the same without success.) For example, take the way Jesus viewed the ministry of John the Baptist. There are those premillennialists who teach that the prophet Elijah will be resurrected and his prophetic office reestablished just prior to Christ's second coming. This is during the time that some folks call the "great tribulation," or the "time of Jacob's trouble." This resurrection is so that certain OT prophecies can be "literally" fulfilled, especially: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of Yahweh: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Mal. 4:5,6) According to another premillennial principle, the "the great and dreadful day of Yahweh" must refer to the events at the end of the "great tribulation." But the premillennialist has a problem, because Jesus clearly spoke of John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning the coming of Elijah. About John He said, "If you will receive it, this is Elijah who was to come." (Matt. 11:14). Following the Transfiguration, at which Elijah actually appeared, He was much more direct: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Matt. 17:10-13) The only New Testament interpretation that we have of Elijah's coming was offered by Jesus. And He never gave us the impression that another "coming of Elijah" should be expected in the future. From the NT perspective, "Elijah has come." And if Elijah has come, then what does this tell us about "the coming of the great and dreadful day of Yahweh?" (cont'd) -- Tom Albrecht