ssimmons@unix.cie.rpi.edu (Stephen Simmons) (07/05/90)
About Job 1-2, our moderator writes >I'm by no means convinced that >God would actually make a bet with Satan, as portrayed in chap. 1-2. > >--clh] Why not? :) For God, it would not be gambling. It is as if someone were to come up to you and tell you that if he were given the opportunity to try to prevent the sun from rising, it would not rise. You would calmly say, go ahead, do what you can, and try to prevent its rise, but it will happen. In a similar way the Lord said, "Behold, all that he has is in your power..." Job 1:12. God knew what Job would do. -Steve Simmons
32GQZ7M@cmuvm.bitnet (Dave Heiss) (02/16/91)
Apologies in advance, as this is an age old question and may be more suited elsewhere. But, I hae been trying to wrestle with the problem of Job, as put forth "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." In short, it goes like this: Given what God did to Job, he must be either Not omnipotent, Not omipresent, or Not omniscient (sp?). I would like some thoughts as to what the generic Christian answers are, and what some personal answers are.. Thanks and sorry again in advance. Dave Heiss (32GQZ7M@CMUVM.BITNET)
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/01/91)
>But if God is aware, is concerned, and is able to relieve or pain, then >we have to ask why He permits it. Here's a strange view I adopted a couple of years ago. Remember when Jesus' disciples asked about the man born blind, (was it due to the sins of his parents? or what?). Jesus replied that the man had been born blind so that the grace of God could be revealed through him. (Citation obviously highly paraphrased, I don't keep a Bible in my office.) Was the same true of the others Jesus healed? Certainly God allowed the suffering of Jesus and many of his apostles. They died painful, violent deaths, endured imprisonment and tortures. All this to serve God's purposes. They weren't being punished. Peter didn't learn any great lesson from his crucifixion. In these famous cases, we can speculate why these people were allowed/caused to suffer. We can see where their sacrifices may fall into a greater plan. But what about the sufferings of the poor. Jesus said that the poor would be with us always. Wars and Rumors of War. Fires and Earthquakes in many places. Why all this suffering? Why does God allow all of this to happen? Or does this suffering too represent a part in God's greater plan? One thing I've noticed; humanity seems to be at its best in adversity. Studies show repeatedly that richer people give much less money (by percentage) to charity than the poor, (who can least afford it). Suffering people reach out to each other with compassion. Comfortable people often have little use for others, or for God. When a child falls down a well, the nation watches anxiously the rescue effort. Our material society confirms the sacred worth of one small child. A child we never met. Now I don't mean to imply that people suffer *only* that we may be reminded of the grace of God, or our duties toward each other. God's ways are *not* our ways. I will not pretend to know the mind of God, but perhaps this is one reason of many why suffering is a necessary part of God's plan. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (03/05/91)
[David Heiss raised the "problem of pain", i.e. how God can allow suffering.
--clh]
If anyone has a question about pain/suffering, I would like to suggest
that they read "The Problem of Pain", by C. S. Lewis. It provides some
good answers to some difficult questions.
-Logan
--
=----------------------------------------------------------------= |
/\/ Logan Shaw "Come to Me, all who are weary and -+-
\/\ lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." |
=----------------------------------------------------------------= |John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu (John Graves) (03/07/91)
In article <Mar.1.02.43.23.1991.15478@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes in the midst of a long article about God's relation to pain and suffering: > Why all this suffering? Why does > God allow all of this to happen? Or does this suffering too represent a > part in God's greater plan? I refer the reader to two passages in which God through the prophets takes responsibility for both good and evil. Isaiah 45: 5-7 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things. and Lamentations 3: 37-39 37 Who can command and have it done, if the Lord has not ordained it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? 39 Why should any who draw breath complain about the punishment of their sins? In Isaiah there is no direct reason given for God creating woe. Lamentations seems to imply that bad things happen as a punishment for sins. The whole story in Job seems to contradict this. Maybe this is because there are two separate themes running throughout the Bible. One theme is that expressed by Job's friends. God punishes sin and sin is the cause of punishment (the Mosaic Covenant). The other theme, expressed by God to Job is that man cannot know the reasons why God does something. God and his actions are greater than human understanding. This is why Jesus is a new Covenant, man no longer must follow the law or the covenant with Moses in order to be not be punished since it is only by the grace of God that one is spared from pain and suffering. God does however reward Job for his loyalty, just as he rewarded the Patriarchs and David. Paul proclaims the Davidic Covenant rather than the Mosaic Covenant by declaring that works are not necessary just faith. John Allan Graves Unitarian Universalism Duke University An inclusive religion! and all its components () including the Divinity School, \__/ disavow anything I say. II
gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow) (04/03/91)
Does God create woe or does he unleash it? He takes responsibility for all that happens but it was Satan who did the injury to Job. God allowed it therefore he is responsible but Satan did the inflicting. linc james