brendan@cs.uq.oz.au (Brendan Mahony) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.20.04.08.41.1991.9698@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: >Homosexual thoughts, ... CANNOT be engaged in, if one >wishes to enter the kingdom of Heaven. They're sins of the grave kind, >like murder, large theft. In <Mar.25.03.44.59.1991.7228@athos.rutgers.edu> fasano@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Cathy Fasano) writes: >Other people have dealt with this more substantively; I wish merely to >point out that this is *not* Roman Catholic teaching. (Catholic teaching >is pretty well summed-up as the assertion that homosexuals are called to >a life of celibacy (a "life of celibacy" being quite well-defined in >Catholic teaching.)) I am sure that Cathy means chastity as celibacy is merely the unmarried state, so most homsexuals do indeed practise celibacy and would thus gain a lot more approval from the church than they do. Note that celibacy is in fact the vow taken by RC priests and not chastity, though many religious orders do indeed require this of their initiates. >Whether one believes the (in this case homosexual) action immoral or not, >merely considering the action is not in itself immoral. As a general case >in moral theology, unacted-out temptation is never considered sinful -- in >fact, resisting temptation is considered a practical virtue to be prayed >for, studied and emulated. Perhaps a little over simplified. The (RC) church would definitely claim that there is sin in entertaining thoughts or fantacising about a sinful action. This is referred to as sin by Christ and the ten commandments. Notice that it is "thou shalt not covet..." rather than "thou shalt not take..." I wouldn't claim to know all of the reason for this but it does seem that fantasies are eventually either acted out on some level or else bring a feeling of unfulfilment and loss when not acted out. Consider the obvious unfortunate effects of racist and sexist thoughts and fantasies, even among those who try to lead a Christian life. In seeking to resist temptation one should really be aiming to clean your mind of impure thoughts as well as your body of actions. -- Brendan Mahony | brendan@batserver.cs.uq.oz Department of Computer Science | heretic: someone who disgrees with you University of Queensland | about something neither of you knows Australia | anything about.
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.26.23.47.37.1991.11422@athos.rutgers.edu> brendan@cs.uq.oz.au (Brendan Mahony) writes: >... >Perhaps a little over simplified. The (RC) church would definitely claim that >there is sin in entertaining thoughts or fantacising about a sinful action. >This is referred to as sin by Christ and the ten commandments. Notice >that it is "thou shalt not covet..." rather than "thou shalt not take..." >I wouldn't claim to know all of the reason for this but it does seem >that fantasies are eventually either acted out on some level or else >bring a feeling of unfulfilment and loss when not acted out. >Consider the obvious unfortunate effects of racist and sexist thoughts >and fantasies, even among those who try to lead a Christian life. >In seeking to resist temptation one should really be aiming to clean >your mind of impure thoughts as well as your body of actions. >... Indeed... Matthew 15:1-20 (See also Mark 7:1-23) Then some Pharisees and teachers of the Law came from Jerusalem to Jesus and asked him, 2 "Why is it that your disciples disobey the teaching handed down by our ancestors? They don't wash their hands in the proper way before they eat!" 3 Jesus answered, "And why do you disobey God's command and follow your own teaching? 4 For God said, `Respect your father and your mother,' and `Whoever curses his father or his mother is to be put to death.' 5 But you teach that if a person has something he could use to help his father or mother, but says, `This belongs to God,' 6 he does not need to honor his father.* In this way you disregard God's command, in order to follow your own teaching. 7 You hypocrites! How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! 8`These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. 9 It is no use for them to worhip me, because they teach manmade rules as though they were my laws'". 10 Then Jesus called the crowd to him and said to them, "Listen and understand! 11 It is not what goes into a person's mouth that makes him ritually unclean; rather what comes out of it makes him unclean." 12 Then the disciples came to him and said, "Do you know that the Pharisees had their feelings hurt by what you said?" 13 "Every plant which my Father in heaven did not plant will be pulled up," answered Jesus. 14 "Don't worry about them! They are blind leaders of the blind; and when one blind man leads another, both fall into a ditch." 15 Peter spoke up, "Explain this saying to us." 16 Jesus said to them, "You are still no more intelligent than the others. 17 Don't you understand? Anything that goes into a person's mouth goes into his stomach and then on out of his body. 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these are the things that make a person ritually unclean. 19 For from his heart come the evil ideas which lead him to kill, commit adultery, and do other immoral things; to rob, lie and slander others. 20 These are the things that make a person unclean. But to eat without washing your hands as they say you should-this doesn't make a person unclean." * his father; some manuscripts have his father or mother. (TEV) My original intent in this citation was to remind us of Jesus insistance about what was in the heart making one unclean. But don't verses 8 and 9 burn in your mind!? How many of the petty squabbles in the church come down to this!? Let's check out Isaiah... Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord said, "These people claim to worship me, but their words are meaningless, and their hearts are somewhere else. Their religion is nothing but human rules and traditions, which they have simply memorized. 14 So I will startle them with one unexpected blow after another. Those who are wise will turn out to be fools, and all their cleverness will be useless." (TEV) Old Isaiah has plenty to say to us today, no doubt about it. I guess we haven't changed all that much in a few thousand years. (Kinda depressing, isn't it?) Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton P.S. You won't read this until after Easter I'm sure, but a blessed Easter to *all* of you. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not sure when the Orthodox Easter is this year... a blessed Easter to you as well.
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (04/01/91)
Re: Brendan Mahony In article <Mar.26.23.47.37.1991.11422@athos.rutgers.edu> brendan@cs.uq.oz.au (Brendan Mahony) writes, in response to Cathy Fasano: >>Whether one believes the (in this case homosexual) action immoral or not, >>merely considering the action is not in itself immoral. As a general case >>in moral theology, unacted-out temptation is never considered sinful -- in >>fact, resisting temptation is considered a practical virtue to be prayed >>for, studied and emulated. >Perhaps a little over simplified. The (RC) church would definitely claim that >there is sin in entertaining thoughts or fantasizing about a sinful action. >This is referred to as sin by Christ and the ten commandments. Notice >that it is "thou shalt not covet..." rather than "thou shalt not take..." Hi, Brendan! In my experience, you're both right, to an extent. The Church does *not* consider a normal, "out-of-the-blue" impure thought to be a sin; the Church stresses firmly that being tempted is NOT equivalent to being sinful. So in that respect, one would not be sinning by merely having an impure thought appear in one's mind. However, one WOULD be sinning if, instead of "banishing" the thought from one's mind immediately, one continued to "dwell" on the thought, "savoring" it, as such. Along those lines, one would not be sinning if one looked at a member of the opposite sex and was struck by a "fantasy" of a sexual encounter with that person; it's quite natural for that "urge" to strike from time to time. But it's the obligation of the Christian to say, "Yes, I acknowledge that I find myself sexually attracted to [him/her], but the life I lead insists on my *not* "following up" on that attraction; [he/she] is simply attractive to me, and that's that." To react to these random thoughts by trying to *deny* their existence (or possible recurrence) would be silly; one would be driven mad by self-inflicted grief, shame, and confusion. One must instead accept these "awkward" thoughts for what they are... simple, fleeting temptations, and nothing more... and move on. Simple as that. I hope this is applicable to what you were talking about...! :) >In seeking to resist temptation one should really be aiming to clean >one's mind of impure thoughts as well as one's body of actions. That's quite true; a goal of every Christian is to have pure body AND pure mind. But it should be noted that it is inappropriate, if not somewhat hazardous, to mistake temptation itself for a sin. ---- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
sl87m@cc.usu.edu (The Barking Pumpkin Digital Gratification Ensemble) (04/01/91)
[This is a contribution to the ongoing discussion about whether
homosexual thoughts alone are sinful (supposing that homosexuality
itself is sinful). --clh]
All actions originate from the mind. Anything that is entertained long enough
becomes habit for the mind, and the actions in the mind seem natural to the
person thinking them. Anything that is habitual in the mind can come out in
action.
Most importantly, consider the words of Christ in Matthew 5 (if I remember
correctly - I ofttimes don't, and I don't have a Bible to look it up in right
now) where He talked about in the law of Moses, it says Thou shalt not commit
adultury, but (pulling from memory again) But I say unto you, that whosoever
looks upon a woman to lust after her hath already commited adultury in his
heart.
If what goes on in the mind is of no importance, then why this? The mind is
what controls the body. It can act according to the desires of the body, or it
can discipline the body to acheive the joy and happiness within that the
obedient enjoy.
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) (04/04/91)
Regarding when to consider thoughts to be sinful, sl87m@cc.usu.edu (The Barking Pumpkin Digital Gratification Ensemble) writes: >All actions originate from the mind. Anything that is entertained long enough >becomes habit for the mind, and the actions in the mind seem natural to the >person thinking them. Anything that is habitual in the mind can come out in >action. A good summary of the idea that I heard goes: When the idea enters your head, that's temptation. When you invite it in and throw a party in its honor, that's sin. -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, uunet!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV)