MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu (03/25/91)
I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if salvation can come at the last moment of life?
goguenm@chopin.udel.edu (Matthew L Goguen) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? For those who ask this question and are trying to follow it let be be so bold to point out a few things. First: you have to hope that you will have the time to repent. This may not happen. You could get into an auto accident on your way home tonight and be killed instantly. Or you could have a sudden heart attack. God is the creator and sustainer of life. If and when God calls our ticket we go. No ifs ands or buts. Second: If you want a completly selfish motive: God rewards those that serve him. It may mean that you will have to be humble and give up some things now but when you go "Home" you will have something to look foward to besides just being there. Third: God is all wise. I heard my pastor say last night that the BIBLE is the greatest book on Psychology ever written. Think about the reasoning of God. Believers say that God has AGAPE love. What does that mean? That God will pull our strings like a puppet and take away all our fun? No, God wants what is best for his creation. That is why he has given us the instructions and messages that he has. Take a look at the Old Testiment law of not eating pork. Here God is not trying to take away a pleasureable taste but tring to keep his people from getting sick and diseased. Pork can contain some extreamly nasty diseases and worms that will make a mess of a person insides if not cooked properly. IE TAPEWORMS. Animal Biologists would know more. Forth and Finally: The only unforgivable sin is not accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour. Think this one through. The thief at the cross had time to accept Christ and to profess that belief. Christ rewarded him. With the heart man believeth unto righetousness, With the mouth confession is made unto salvation. You may procrastinate but you are pushing your luck especially if you do know better. A brother in Christ, Matthew L. Goguen goguenm@chopin.udel.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ |This is what I understand according to the teaching and | |leading of the Holy Spirit. | ------------------------------------------------------------
JMS111@psuvm.psu.edu (Jenni Sheehey) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu>, MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu says: > >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? Who knows when the last moment of life will be? Also, I personally have had plenty of benefits in *this* life, too. --Jenni
chappell@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Glenn Chappell) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >... what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? Well, we really don't know when "the last moment of life" will be do we? Many of us expect to die on a bed surrounded by friends & relatives, but that might not happen. After I'm done here, I may walk across the street, get hit by a car, and die instantly. That's one reason I'm glad I'm already saved. Secondly, I'd mention that if you say "I'll obey God (e.g. get saved) later", don't expect that, when the time comes you really will. Jesus said that if you want to obey Him, do it now (see the last few verses of Luke 9). GGC <><
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? Why not go for the gusto and then repent at the last minute, (right?) Well, it *might* work, but if you're going to try this approach, be sure and die a slow death, (crucifixion is ideal), so that you'll have time to repent. Death by explosion for instance would blow your plans all to H*** ;-). If you were the sort of person who made plans like this though I kind of doubt that your last moment conversion would be sincere. Your complaint is not new, (it even predates the robber on the cross). Check out the older son in "The Prodigal Son". Check out the workers in the vineyard who complained about the latecomers getting the same wage. "It just isn't fair!" we all cry! No, says God, you've got it wrong. None of you deserve Heaven, so don't be surprised if the "undeserving" get in with the "more deserving". We don't earn our way into God's love through good works. Our good works are a response to God's love for us. (Got it?) ;-) Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu>, MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? I believe that the difficulty lies with the fact that we assume that the thief went into heaven, and that there is only "one" heaven. In fact the thief went into the spirit world, where Jesus went after he died on the cross. I Peter 3:18-19 =============== "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" I Peter 4:6 ----------- "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Was the thief saved? It all depends what his response was to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:13-14 =============== "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Paul has taught about the differences in the resurrection, for we won't all be resurrected to the same glory. I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Paul himself was caught up into the third heaven: 2 Corint 12:3-4 =============== "I knew a man in Christ above fourteenyears ago, (whether in the body, I can't tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." As you can see, things are not as simple as many would like to believe. Maybe when the thief will be resurrected his glory can be compared to the faintest star in the heavens, instead of the glory of the sun, even if he accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a story about a robber who killed a bank teller. He was sentenced to die. While he was waiting for his exacution, he was converted, and he went to heaven. The teller was complaining in hell, for he was not saved, that he didn't receive the same chance as the robber did. With brotherly love, Frank
kday@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Day) (03/30/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? 1. To please God. It is our reason for being here. 2. Do you happen to know when your "last moment of life" will be? The only moment we're sure of is the one we're living right now. 3. The more we reject the gospel, the more hardened our heart becomes to the gospel. "Today is the day of salvation" K. Scott Day David Taylor Research Center Bethesda, Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "He who gives to the poor will not lack, but he who hides his eyes will have many curses." -Proverbs 28:27 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
taylor@homxa.att.com (Roberta L Taylor) (03/30/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? The first thing that comes to mind is, how many of us know when the last moment will be? It's rather a gamble, isn't it, to plan on repenting at the last moment? There may not be time. I recall a group of young people that I encountered once, while out street witnessing. We told them about the Lord, but their reply was, "Oh, there's plenty of time for that later. I want to have fun now." A couple of weeks later, one of them was dead - killed in a car crash. It happened very quickly - I doubt he had time to be saved. Also, can one be sure that one *will* repent at the last moment, even assuming the opportunity? A lifetime of rejecting God can be difficult to overcome. Our character is affected by all the choices we make throughout our lives - what is to say that we'll suddenly make a 180 degree turn at the very end? Another thing (for me, at least) is that I regret any time wasted by "doing my own thing." I know I'm saved, but there have been times when I've managed to ignore what God wanted me to be doing. When I finally came back to Him, it was a terrible shock to see how much time I'd wasted, and how I'd failed Him by doing so. Fortunately, He's quick to forgive, and I know He even uses those times to teach me things...but I wonder, what might have been if I had been obedient? You ask, "What is the incentive to be true to the word?" Having tried both extremes, I wonder what the incentive is for waiting? Salvation is so much more than just a "fire escape"! :-) It's a wonderful way of life! I tend to wonder about people who see Jesus as nothing more than an escape from hell. But, to get back to your question, how about: love for God; the peace and joy that only come from knowing Him; (and my favorite:) anticipation of that day when He'll look at me and say "Well done, good and faithful servant"? ---- Roberta Taylor | You let me sing a song for you every now and then, AT&T Bell Laboratories | But I'm asking you, when are you gonna listen? Whippany, NJ | You say I never sing about anyone but Jesus taylor@homxa.att.com | Well, that's because Jesus is my song. (Anne Herring)
carlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.26.23.20.39.1991.10673@athos.rutgers.edu> JMS111@psuvm.psu.edu (Jenni Sheehey) writes: >In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu>, MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu >says: >> >>What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >>salvation can come at the last moment of life? > >Who knows when the last moment of life will be? Also, I personally have >had plenty of benefits in *this* life, too. > --Jenni I want to back Jenni up on this point (hi again, Jenni. Thanks for your mail). The idea that anyone should want to put off salvation bothers me. It seems that God wants us to be saved for our benefit, not our sorrow. The person who comes to Him earlier in life is the more advantaged because they have more opportunity to become Christ-like in this life and longer to serve. I think that in heaven our most important concerns will be to to be like Christ and to serve Him. If that's what will be eternally on our minds we might as well make it important to us now! Ann B. Carlson (carlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov)
emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) (04/01/91)
>I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? I believe the reasons are many. Here is an account I would like to share although I'm not positive on the details. But it demonstrates what I would like to share. There was a great preacher (Finney, I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong) who was preaching at a great revival meeting. After the first night, he did not give an invitation for people to accept Jesus, but told them to come back the next night if they want to be saved. Well, that night a great fire broke out in the city and consumed it. Many, many, many people lost their lives, some of which may have been at that meeting that night. The point is that a person does not know when he will die. It could be unexpected. But more than that, being saved is more than getting to go to a place, it is knowing a person. That person is Jesus. It is being reconciled and united to God. It is experiencing the grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love of the One who died for us. In summary, it is a relationship with the God who created us. And this opening the door to Jesus allows the Holy Spirit to come inside of us and make us new people. Over the life of a redeemed soul, he has the opportunity to grow closer and closer to the Lord and know Him more intimately. This intimacy transforms the believer, creating changes in his behavior, making him freer and freer inside. Also, the effect of this intimacy with Jesus and the resulting changes, creates a desire to serve God more and more and do good and loving deeds toward others, bearing fruit for His Kingdom. It allows us to reach out to those around us with our experience and knowledge of God's benevolant goodness! It allows people to be drawn to the source of eternal life: Jesus Christ! What a sorrow for one to have lived his life and never allowed the Lord Jesus to fulfill His mission in the person. There is a joy in being a part of the work of Jesus. Finally, the idea that it would be better to wait until the last moment in life to get saved implies that not being saved (unreconciled to God) is a better way to live than being saved (reconciled to God). I testify this is not true. Never have I experienced love that is true love, and peace that is real peace and joy that is real joy until I invited Jesus into my life. I have found a Savior who loves me, cares for me, and is with me always; who gives me fulfillment and delivers me out of trouble in my life and reveals to me my purpose in life. As I look back to my B.C. days, the question I ask myself is why didn't I accept Him earlier in life? God bless you all, John Emery emery@tc.fluke.COM
MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.26.23.35.37.1991.11092@athos.rutgers.edu>, tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) says: > >Why not go for the gusto and then repent at the last minute, (right?) >Well, it *might* work, but if you're going to try this approach, be sure >and die a slow death, (crucifixion is ideal), so that you'll have time >to repent. Death by explosion for instance would blow your plans all to >H*** ;-). This has been the only reason I've received for not putting off salvation. I've read several passes in the Christian bible detail- after life experiences. So it seems that you must accept Christ while the flesh is still alive which I find inconsistant with the "the body is merely a home for the soul" sense emanating from Christianity. It also quantifies decisions made by our "eternal spirits" to be made in the mortal sense of time that it requires for the brain to cease functioning. >If you were the sort of person who made plans like this though I kind of >doubt that your last moment conversion would be sincere. Yes but that would be between God and myself am I right? We have no proof that the robber was sincere. >Your complaint is not new, (it even predates the robber on the cross). >Check out the older son in "The Prodigal Son". Check out the workers in >the vineyard who complained about the latecomers getting the same wage. >"It just isn't fair!" we all cry! No, says God, you've got it wrong. >None of you deserve Heaven, so don't be surprised if the "undeserving" >get in with the "more deserving". This has nothing to do with the last moment situation. Reread what you have written. If this were the same situation then all the previously saved people would be complaining about the robber getting saved at the last moment, which I believe is used to represent something beautiful in the Christian faith. >We don't earn our way into God's love through good works. Our good >works are a response to God's love for us. (Got it?) ;-) But you can do good works and still not believe in God. Or are you saying everything done by cultures never exposed to Christianity was not good? Matt [John Emery just made a response of a slightly different nature, but I agree that the responses so far have been a bit disappointing. There's a view of Christianity that it's a really unpleasant set of rules that makes your life miserable, and is justifiable only because otherwise God is going to send you to hell and torture you forever. That's certainly not the way I feel about it. I think basing my life on the love of God and my neighbor is a rewarding way to live in the here and now. There are a number of good reasons for Christians to talk about eternity. I say this because I would not want to be misunderstood as saying that we should abandon our confidence in eternal life, or the understanding of God as a righteous judge. But I don't think threats of hellfire are a good way to approach non-Christians. (I also share David Buxton's questions about whether eternal torture is consistent with the Bible in any case.) On the other things you talk about, I should point out that not all Christians believe that the body is merely a home for the soul. We do all (I think) believe that the true destiny of mankind is life with God in eternity. But that does not necessarily imply a body/soul split of the sort you mention. Because Christians believe in the resurrection of the body, it's possible (although unusual) for a Christian to have a unitary view of human nature. That is, to view the "soul" as a way of talking about consciousness and life, but not as a separate entity. --clh]
ajm@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony McGregor) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? I think you have the horse before the cart, so to speak. Salvation is a byproduct of faith. If you become a Christian you will do it because you believe Christianity to be true. YOU CAN'T choose the time you begin to believe something. If you believe that Christianity is true then your actions will change. If you aren't sure about Christianity you need to investigate it while you can. If it is the truth it's very important to you both now and eternally. I believe that, little by little, people become the choices they make. If you live your life for good you become more like God. If you lead you life for bad you become less like him. As you change if becomes easier to make the similar decisions. If you live a life of rejecting Christ when you finally come to see him clearly you will be repelled by him and will flee. God bless you Tony ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony McGregor ( ajm@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au ) Department of Robotics and Digital Technology, Monash University PO Box 197, Caulfield East, Vic 3145, Australia Phone: +61 3 5732014 Fax: +61 3 5732745 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (04/01/91)
Several posters have been discussing the possibility of accepting Jesus at the last moment in order to "enjoy life" in sin until then. Aside from the fact that I don't think a sinful life is really all that enjoyable I think there are other problems. For what it's worth here is a repeat of something I posted before, probably a year or 2 ago: Is "deathbed repentance" an acceptable way to accept Jesus? I don't think I can give a simple answer (although there are of course many who do have a simple answer which they believe). However there are some things we ought to consider in regard to this question. First, I believe it is at best dangerous to reject the Lord (or postpone accepting him) so we can do what we want, expecting to fix it all with deathbed repentance. Obviously, we run the risk of sudden death precluding that option. However, I think the problems run deeper than that. I think the Lord is displeased when we reject Him for any reason (although of course we can still repent). What he requires is true repentance, turning ourselves fully and completely around to face him. This means we must be willing to follow him. If a person waits until he has no life left to give to Jesus, I have to wonder if he really is willing to follow him at all. In the parable of the pearl of great price and the parable of the treasure in the field (Mat 13:44-46) Jesus seems to indicate that the price of the Kingdom of Heaven is *all that we have*. Saying "I will spend it or loose it all first" seems to indicate an unwillingness to really commit our all. Planned deathbed repentance seems like saying, "I will give my life to the Lord when there is none of it left to give." This doesn't seem to reflect much commitment on the part of the "giver." Let me give an example of what I mean. When I was a missionary in Peru I met a man who told me that he believed what I was teaching was true and he intended to accept "as soon as he got too old to chase women." Assuming that he really meant what he said (I hope he did not) I suspect he would have a problem. He was not willing to give up his favorite sin for Jesus and therefore was not really willing to turn his life over to the Lord. How can he love God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind (Mat 22:37-38) if he is not willing to change his life for the Lord? The moderator mentions the "parable of the laborers in the vineyard" in Mat 20. A man hires workers at various times of the day but at the end of the day pays them all the same regardless of how long they worked. I will agree that this means it does not matter in the final judgement how long ago we made the commitment to Christ. However I find little indication in the parable that those hired at the 11th hour had deliberately waited until then to go to work. For whatever reason they seem not to have had the opportunity to work for him from the first hour. In fact they were anxious enough to work that they didn't even bother to find out how much they would be paid. I think we should have a similar attitude about accepting the Lord. We should be willing to accept when he calls us. Then it will make no difference how long we work, only that we have totally committed to him. Of course there is a difference between the person who deliberately waits and the person who never really has a chance until near death. I think only God can judge here. Our task is to accept him when we have a chance, not to judge others.
lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber >on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is >possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? >What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if >salvation can come at the last moment of life? Others have pointed out the obvious - that you might die suddenly and lose your chance. Also, what about those who will be saved _because_of_you_ if you become a Christian? If you wait til the last moment, _you_ might be saved, but _they_ probably won't. Plus, I personally happen to be alot happier the more obedient to God I am. -Logan -- =----------------------------------------------------------------= | /\/ Logan Shaw "Come to Me, all who are weary and -+- \/\ lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." | =----------------------------------------------------------------= |
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/02/91)
In article <Apr.1.01.48.09.1991.6738@athos.rutgers.edu> MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >>Why not go for the gusto and then repent at the last minute, (right?) >>Well, it *might* work, but if you're going to try this approach, be sure >>and die a slow death, (crucifixion is ideal), so that you'll have time >>to repent. Death by explosion for instance would blow your plans all to >>H*** ;-). > > This has been the only reason I've received for not putting off > salvation. I've read several passes in the Christian bible detail- > after life experiences. So it seems that you must accept Christ > while the flesh is still alive which I find inconsistant with > the "the body is merely a home for the soul" sense emanating from > Christianity. Well, we look at heaven and hell as an afterlife right? Accepting Christ is an act of faith. If you are dead, and your spirit has gone on (presuamably to Hell), you can't very well accept faith in the afterlife at this point. (You have *proof* and proof denies faith.) So, yes I'd kinda draw the line at the point of death. (Which was what your original question was about after all). > It also quantifies decisions made by our "eternal spirits" to be > made in the mortal sense of time that it requires for the brain to > cease functioning. Once again, it seems to me that once you find yourself an "eternal spirit" no longer linked to your body that proof of something beyond (shall we say) "our frame of reference". >>If you were the sort of person who made plans like this though I kind of >>doubt that your last moment conversion would be sincere. > > Yes but that would be between God and myself am I right? We have no > proof that the robber was sincere. > Would it be safe to say that even though you and I have no way of knowing the robber's sincerity that Jesus (being godly) did? (We have no way of *knowing* that Jesus followed through on his promise either ;-) It's a matter of faith.) >>Your complaint is not new, (it even predates the robber on the cross). >>Check out the older son in "The Prodigal Son". Check out the workers in >>the vineyard who complained about the latecomers getting the same wage. >>"It just isn't fair!" we all cry! No, says God, you've got it wrong. >>None of you deserve Heaven, so don't be surprised if the "undeserving" >>get in with the "more deserving". > > This has nothing to do with the last moment situation. Reread what > you have written. If this were the same situation then all the > previously saved people would be complaining about the robber > getting saved at the last moment, which I believe is used to > represent something beautiful in the Christian faith. I don't see your complaint. As I understood your original statement you asked what the motivation was for being saved if you could be saved at the last moment (as the robber on the cross was). I compare this to the laborers in the field who might well have said. "Well, if I'd known I'd get paid the same no matter, I wouldn't have come the first two times you called!" By his parables, Jesus points out that people *will* see this as unjust. But yes, the robber on the cross is just one example of Jesus' uncommon attitude towards sinners. I see the saving of the robber on the cross however as being because of his faith. Luke 23:39-43 39 One of the criminals hanging there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" 40 The other one, however, rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God? You received the same sentence he did. 41 Ours, however, is only right, because we are getting what we deserve for what we did; but he has done no wrong." 42 And he said to Jesus, "Remember me, Jesus, when you come as King!" 43 Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me." (TEV) How many times in the Gospels does Jesus commend/reward someone's faith? Remember the roman officer in Luke 7:6-10 6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the officer sent friends to tell him, "Sir, don't trouble yourself. I do not deserve to have you come into my house, 7 neither do I consider myself worthy to come to you in person. Just give the order, and my servant will get well. 8 I, too, am a man placed under the authority of superior officers, and I have soldiers under me. I order this one, `Go!' and he goes; I order that one, `Come!' and he comes; and I order my slave, `Do this!' and he does it." 9 Jesus was surprised when he heard this; he turned around and said to the crowd following him, "I tell you, I have never found faith like this, not even in Israel!" 10 The messengers went back to the officer's house and found his servant well. (TEV) It is the officer's faith Jesus rewards. He doesn't need to see Jesus heal the man in person. He doesn't need to even see Jesus. He believes in Jesus' authority. This theme comes up repeatedly. >>We don't earn our way into God's love through good works. Our good >>works are a response to God's love for us. (Got it?) ;-) > > But you can do good works and still not believe in God. > Or are you saying everything done by cultures never exposed to > Christianity was not good? Yes, you can do good works and not believe in God. I don't see any conflict there. What I am saying is that good works cannot earn God's love. If you believe in God, you may do good works in response to God's love, (you believe it is right to do so.) If you do not believe in God, you can do good works simply because you believe it is right to do so. Even at times when my faith fails me, I still believe in doing good works, not for a reward, but because it is the right thing to do. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu (04/03/91)
In article <Apr.1.01.19.21.1991.6614@athos.rutgers.edu>, carlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) says: >The idea that anyone should want to put off salvation bothers me. It seems >that God wants us to be saved for our benefit, not our sorrow. The person who >comes to Him earlier in life is the more advantaged because they have more >opportunity to become Christ-like in this life and longer to serve.... This brings up an interesting point. Do Christians believe that there will be a hierarchy in heaven? I realize that they feel God will be king and Christ his "second in command" FLOABT. but what about everybody else?
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (04/05/91)
In article <Mar.25.04.53.12.1991.7804@athos.rutgers.edu>, MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > I have always wondered about the passage concerning the robber > on the cross who was saved right before he died. If this is > possible, why should anyone be "saved" before the last moment? > What I mean is, what is the incentive to be true to the Word if > salvation can come at the last moment of life? The book of Romans teaches that a person can only have one of two masters, sin or Christ. It is an illusion to believe that before one submits to the Lordship of Christ, he or she is free. That person is in bondage to sin. Everything that person does has a selfish motive. Oh, you may have to dig deep to find it, but it's there. If someone does something to be a "good person", that's pride, and pride is a sin. After coming to Christ, we are freed from that bondage of sin and FREE to obey. This is newfound freedom never before experienced. You become alive to God, forever able and willing to obey the one who made us to serve Him. There is unspeakable JOY that comes from obedience to the Lord. This joy cannot be generated from sin. ROM 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. ROM 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. ROM 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403