YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Yaakov Kayman) (03/08/91)
[This responds to a discussion between David Wagner and Erik Hardy, talking about possible cooperation between Christians and Jews. Hardy wanted to know how Christians could possibly cooperate with Jews, when they have quite fundamental differences. David responded that for Christians to acknowledge a spiritual unity with rabbis who deny that J____ is the Messiah, is a sin. He comments >Jews worship a false image of God. From the Christian >perspective they are unbelievers and idolators. Hardy also asks how Jews for J____ can exist, given the rather negative impact that the coming of J____ has had on Jews. --clh] As my Jewish views about G-d and the Messiah are pretty clear by now to the readers of this newsgroup, I need not restate them in any detail. Suffice it to say that they are completely at odds with Christianity's views, and that I, along with all Jews who have not abandoned Judaism in favor of other faiths, do not accept J____ in any capacity. I deliberate- ly say "faiths" since Islam accepts J____ as a prophet. My views of Mr. Wagner's cited statements (the ">"s above) require *NO* elaboration at all. This said, I should like to express my curiosity about the evident preoccupation by some/many/most Christians, in this newsgroup at least, with the Jews, and what we do and do not believe. As Jews spend virtually no time whatsoever mulling over what Christians do or do not believe, or do or do not practice except when it causes adverse results to Jews, I'd like to ask "Haven't you got things more germane to your own faith to discuss, rather than spending so much time discussing a people that has made it eminently clear throughout two thousand years that it is just not interested in Christianity and wants nothing of Christians other than to be left alone? Why not just give it a rest?" Yaakov K. -------- Yaakov Kayman (212) 903-3666 City University of New York BITNET: YZKCU@CUNYVM "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU about whom the wolves complain"
rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) (03/09/91)
In article <Mar.8.00.45.16.1991.24614@athos.rutgers.edu>, YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Yaakov Kayman) writes: > > This said, I should like to express my curiosity about the evident > preoccupation by some/many/most Christians, in this newsgroup at least, > with the Jews, and what we do and do not believe. As Jews spend virtually > no time whatsoever mulling over what Christians do or do not believe, or > do or do not practice except when it causes adverse results to Jews, > I'd like to ask "Haven't you got things more germane to your own faith > to discuss, rather than spending so much time discussing a people that > has made it eminently clear throughout two thousand years that it is > just not interested in Christianity and wants nothing of Christians other > than to be left alone? Why not just give it a rest?" > > Yaakov K. > -------- I don't think the "rest" you seek will ever come because some/many/ most Christians see themselves inextricably linked to Judaism ( at least our image of it not necessarily accepted by you and other present-day Jews). We are not going to go away, we are not going to stop talking about it, and we are probably not going to ever let you be done with us even over in s.c.j. It ain't meaness on our part, it just bees that way... Bobby akgua!rjb [I hope Bobby doesn't mean this to be as unreasonable as it sounds. For better of worse, Christianity was created by Jews, and the NT was written by Jews. This means that Jewish background is essential to understanding the NT. The NT in many places defines the Christian position in contrast with Judaism. To the extent that Christianity is based on the NT, this involves us in discussion of Judaism. (Obviously, the same is true of the OT as well.) The somewhat odd result is that many Christians (including me) seem to know more about 1st Cent. Judaism than the modern kind. There are differences, and in at least some cases these differences contribute to the arguments with Yaakov. He says "no Jew could possibly believe..." when we know very well that Jews did. I have talked with Yaakov several times, and at this point I really don't know what we can do to respond to his concerns. We certainly can't stop being concerned about the Jewish background for the NT. All scholars -- Christian and Jewish -- agree that an understanding of 1st Cent. Judaism is critical to understanding what the NT authors were about. In the most recent case Yaakov referred to, there were quite practical reasons for considering Jewish reactions. One was the question of what sort of cooperation is appropriate between Christians and Jews. I don't know about Yaakov's situation, but in Bound Brook, NJ -- as in other communities I know -- there is an informal organization that includes all the local churches. The local synagogue is also a participant. They are involved in the community thanksgiving service (which is held in each of the churches and synagogue in rotation). Obviously they do not participate in the community Easter service. There are issues in which cooperation does make sense, e.g. in helping the schools to understand the need to make allowances for students to participate in religious activities. I think it is healthy that when the police went into the synagogue to arrest someone, they were joined by all the churches in a condemnation of this monumentally insensitive choice of time and place for making an arrest. Nevertheless, while there are things to be said for cooperation among Christians and Jews, many Christians and Jews have questions about how far it is proper to take. This group is an appropriate place to discuss such questions. I have no idea why the members of soc.culture.jewish don't consider this issue worthy of discussion. Another of the issues brought up was how there could be a group such as "Jews for Jesus". I know this is also a concern of Yaakov's, and have some reason to think that there has been mention of this issue in s.c.j. In short, while I understand that Jews get tired of Christians coming up to them and asking why they don't believe in Jesus, there are good reasons why Christians do need to talk about both 1st Cent. Judaism, as well as our relations with 20th Cent. Judaism. --clh]
mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) (03/11/91)
In article <Mar.9.01.42.58.1991.23452@athos.rutgers.edu>, rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) writes: > ... We are not going to go away, we are not going > to stop talking about it, and we are probably not going to ever > let you be done with us even over in s.c.j. The moderator interpolated his own protest at this, but without quite touching the points I want to emphasize. Like Mr. Brown, and OFM, I must inform Mr. Kayman and other Jews that, their comfort notwithstanding, Christians will insist -- because we cannot understand ourselves otherwise -- on on dealing with Judaism, at least in its forms of 2000 years ago. Current Judaism is less centrally a problem, though I think that we have much to learn *from* the Jews and their own 3000+ years of response to God. Not least, we have to see Jesus' Jewish environment, especially the Pharisaism that *we* know only as a negative caricature, as being the origin of a deeply faithful response to God. However. Our participation as individual Christians in soc.culture.jewish had *better* be conducted under a considerable constraint of politeness. If we read, or post, in s.c.j., it behooves us to *understand* the Jewish context before we say ANYTHING. In particular, Christians MUST understand the intense resentment of Jews at what appears to them BIZARRE and forced misreading of texts that they regard as no business of ours at all. We need not (we cannot) accept their evaluation in this -- but to ride rough- shod over Jewish sensibilities does NOT speak well for the gospel. What I would strongly recommend is that NO Christian post to s.c.j. unless it seems essential to correct mistatements about our, Christian, positions. I have made such posts, despite their being uncomfortably close to the kind of coercion Jews have been subject to from Christians all too often. If you MUST post to s.c.j., PLEASE do so with trepidiation, remembering all the crimes committed by Christians against Jews -- out of our "certain" faith that they are "wrong" -- over the last 2000 years. -- Michael L. Siemon "O stand, stand at the window, m.siemon@ATT.COM As the tears scald and start; ...!att!attunix!mls You shall love your crooked neighbor standard disclaimer With your crooked heart."
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (03/19/91)
In article <Mar.8.00.45.16.1991.24614@athos.rutgers.edu> YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Yaakov Kayman) writes: >with the Jews, and what we do and do not believe. As Jews spend virtually >no time whatsoever mulling over what Christians do or do not believe, or >do or do not practice except when it causes adverse results to Jews, >I'd like to ask "Haven't you got things more germane to your own faith >to discuss, rather than spending so much time discussing a people that >has made it eminently clear throughout two thousand years that it is >just not interested in Christianity and wants nothing of Christians other >than to be left alone? Why not just give it a rest?" > >Yaakov K. Simple reasons: 1) Our Savior was a Jew. 2) Our God dealt with the Jews for many centuries, and it is very instructive to know how God deals with people. 3) The Jew, and the other Israelites (i.e., the Ten Tribes from the northern kingdom) were chosen by God to be His oracle people, to be a people that display, carry out, bring to light God's purposes in history, whether they wanted to or not. I, who follow this God, want to know the history of your people because it directly affects me, and I can learn from it. I, a Christian, do not want to convert you. You live your life and I'll live mine, and God has his own timetable for each of us. But don't deny me the privilege of knowing God's ways. John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put" - Dylan
gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow) (04/05/91)
In article <Mar.9.01.42.58.1991.23452@athos.rutgers.edu> rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) writes: >In article <Mar.8.00.45.16.1991.24614@athos.rutgers.edu>, YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Yaakov Kayman) writes: >> >> This said, I should like to express my curiosity about the evident >> preoccupation by some/many/most Christians, in this newsgroup at least, >> with the Jews, and what we do and do not believe. As Jews spend virtually >> no time whatsoever mulling over what Christians do or do not believe, or >> do or do not practice except when it causes adverse results to Jews, >> I'd like to ask "Haven't you got things more germane to your own faith >> to discuss, rather than spending so much time discussing a people that >> has made it eminently clear throughout two thousand years that it is >> just not interested in Christianity and wants nothing of Christians other >> than to be left alone? Why not just give it a rest?" >> >> Yaakov K. >> -------- What Yaakov may not realize is that we christians consider ourselves Jewish. When Paul refers to the ingrafted branch he is refering to us. We have been in grafted into Judiasm because of our belief in Yeshua of Nazareth. Since salvation is of the Jews our saviour and God is Jewish. Perhpas Yaakov should read the New Testament a little more carefully for content and meaning. Doesn't the 22nd Psalm sound a little familiar when compared to Jesus' words on the cross? "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" "All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him, let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him." linc james [Part of a transformed Israel, yes, based on Paul's discussion in Romans. But using the term "Jewish" in this context seems so likely to result in confusion and ill will that I strongly recommend avoiding it. --clh]