10e@hpcvia.cv.hp.com (Steve_Tenney) (03/19/91)
Here are the results of the Demon Possession Survey. Following the number
tally section I have included a section for "Qualifying Comments", since
such a subjective subject is hard to answer in binary mode. I pretty much
agree with the critics about the design of this survey. It could have been
worded more effectively and more options should have been offered, (and by no
means is it statistically significant). Nevertheless, even though this is
about a potentially serious subject, at least the way it would effect one
psychologically (if you trully believe you are possessed by demons, it's
probably safe to say that you're going to at least have problems with
depression). Also, let's remember the obvious, this is only about personal
beliefs, nothing is really going to be proven here.
1. Male Female
59 15
2. Age
Under 20 - 4
20 to 30 - 39
31 to 35 - 21
36 and older - 10
3. Religious Affiliation (current)
WICCAN -3
None - 21
Episcopal - 1
Jewish - 2
Baptist - 3
Baha'i - 1
Church of Christ - 2
Christian non-denom- 15
Unitarian - 2
Catholic - 2
Newage - 1
Buddhist - 2
Athiest - 6
Christian Scientist - 1
Anti_thiest - 1
Protestant -1
Islam -1
Assembly of God - 1
pagan - 1
presbyterian - 2
Charism. Fellowship - 1
Gospel - 1
LDS - 1
Lutheran - 2
4. Religious Affiliation in Childhood
Athiest - 3
Lutheran - 4
Cath- 15
Jewish - 4
None - 6
presb. 5
protest. 4
Christian non-denom - 13
Baptist - 4
methodist - 6
Episcopal - 7
Unitarian - 1
Islam - 1
LDS - 1
5. Occupation
software eng. - 29
grad. student - 15
researcher - 2
engineer - 5
undergrad student - 13
technician - 1
admin - 2
tech writer - 4
lecturer - 2
Physicist - 1
6. Education
2 years or under - 15
4 years - 35
Masters - 18
Phd. - 5
Self-educated - 1
7. Where raised?
California - 12
Northwest - 4
Northeast - 16
Midwest - 21
Southeast - 6
South - 2
Malaysia, India - 1
England - 3
Scotland - 1
Denmark - 1
Holland - 1
Costa Rica - 1
Singleton, Australia - 1
New Zealand - 1
Diplomatic Corps - 1
Canada - 2
8. Do you believe that the Bible is the "word of God"?
Yes - 33
No - 38
Some - 2
Old Testament only - 1
9. Do you believe there is a supernatural being called Satan?
Yes - 32
No - 42
10. Do you believe there is such a thing as demon possesion?
Yes - 30
No - 39
undecided - 5
11. Would you agree with the landlady in the article, that people
suffering from mental disorders such as schizophrenia are demon
possessed?
Yes - 6
No - 61
maybe - 7
12. Do you believe it is possible to "sell your soul to the devil"?
Yes - 14
No - 58
undecided - 2
13. Do you believe it is possible to "lose your soul"?
Yes - 29
No - 45
14. Do you believe there is such a thing as Hell?
Yes - 35
No - 39
*************** QUALIFYING COMMENTS *************************************
(By the way, I will keep the "raw data" file around, with everyone's
response's, but with all names and addresses deleted. If anyone wants me
to e-mail it to them, send me a message).
***********************
I am uncertain as to whether I believe in the existance of non-physical
beings. If there are som such, then no doubt there are those that are
unhealthy for humans, not because of any grand concepts of good/evil,
but rather because of their nature. People might consider such to
be demons, angels and such. I don't buy into the Christian dogma,
believing that Christians, like many other cultures and societies simply
put their terms on a phenomenon they did not understand. Were those
mentally ill people possessed by demons? I doubt it. However I have
seen things that I have a hard time explaining, such as posession in
a ritual setting, so I would not write any possibility off completely.
*******
I think that your survey should have alternative answers such as no
opinion. That would probably be what I would claim for 9, though I've
answered as no because I believe that the character described in the
bible and/or concocted by the bible's proponents is fictitious.
The woman openly states that the people receive medication that quiets
the voices they hear. Pharmacology is a fairly well-grounded science
(e.g. the drugs that are used are usually chosen because they are
known to bind with channels on neuronal membranes and modify their
function). Why does the woman think that these "demons" would
respond to such physical interferences? The hypothesis of demonic
possession does not lead to any insight, and appears to be completely
extraneous. Why would people cling to such explanations? I hope that
your survey will shed some light on that question. (Also note that
people used to believe that epilepsy was caused by temporary demonic
possessions. Epilepsy is much better understood at a functional level
than schizophrenia is. There is absolutely no reason to postulate the
existance of demons in the lives of epileptics any more, since
physical explanations lead to treatments that (although I don't know
if a study has actually been performed) are much more effective than
exorcism.)
13. Do you believe it is possible to "lose your soul"? Yes__ No__.
I think I must put no opinion there. I know of no convincing evidence
that souls exist, and I might go so far as to say again that the concept
of the soul is extraneous and unnecessary, but I don't want to go so far
as to claim that it's not possible to lose your soul.
********
Clearly, I am fairly traditional in my view of the cosmos/supernatural
world. However, much of the truth of the spiritual is as "seen through
a glass darkly," that is, through metaphor and analogy. There is an evil
force in the universe, and a force for good, both exist equally.
People who suffer in this life (e.g., insanity) do so
for a number of reasons, only some of which is due to choice
(the equivalent of "possession").
It is my opinion that the woman in the Paper quoted is a close-minded
person, who simply is fortunate enough not to have a close relative
suffer in the same way as the mentally ill, and thus suffers from
what many in our society do -- a lack of empathy.
*******
9. Do you believe that there is a supernatural being called Satan? Yes__ No__
CALLED Satan? As in "That's his name, don't wear it out?" No, definately
not. Now, is there a Single Force of Evil in the Universe? No to that,
as well. But I didn't know if you were talking about the name or the idea
of Satan.
The questionare is way too constricting and people who believe in concepts
that are SIMILAR in nature to Chritianity (a single good, a single evil,
a place of rest-after-death and another place of unrest) would have a hard
time answering.
**********
I don't believe in the traditional 'Hell' - one that has burning fires
and a geography. I believe instead that HEAVEN is nearness to God
and HELL is remoteness. Of course that means that one can be in hell
(or heaven) anywhere - you don't have to die to get there. (I do have
beliefs about afterlife also.)
The closer we get to 'heaven' the more spiritually happy we become,
regardless of the problems (which we MUST have in order to grow) simply
because we recognize them as a means of growth that God gives us.
The further we get from God - the closer to hell, the more those tests
and problems upset us.
I believe that the Bible IS the Word of God - and that it is remarkably well-
preserved as such. However, I believe that much of what is stated in
the Bible is allegorical. That is not to belittle it. I believe that mankind
is slowly evolving (growing up, as it were) spiritually. This is the day
when mankind has just reached the age of maturity. In the days of Christ,
mankind was still very young. As we often do with our own children, Moses
and Jesus had to couch their lessons in simplistic terms so that the people
could understand. Hence the personification of the "Devil", which in my
belief represents man's attachment to his lower, or material rather than
spiritual, nature.
Fortunately, most of us are enlightened about mental illness in general, and
that schizophrenia has a biochemical cause. Also I think many of us have come
to recognize the allegorical nature of the Bible - although many don't know
where to turn from there. Others, such as that landlady, have not - yet.
That is OK, it is just a lesser state of growth! Others who have grown beyond
that point must GENTLY, LOVINGLY, and PATIENTLY help them to grow while
protecting those that they might hurt.
"O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt
himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created.
Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you
to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth
and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and
actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made
manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this
counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous
glory. - Baha'u'llah, The Hidden Words
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
*******
14. Yes
Eternal separation from God with full knowledge of who you're separated
from (God), why you're separated (sin), and for how long (eternity).
I don't know about the 'fire and brim-stone' part.
15. In my opinion, there IS a spiritual world. It has beings in it that CAN
interact with humans. Some of the beings are 'good' and some are 'bad'.
If allowed or invited, these interaction can become non-voluntary (ie,
the person MAY be 'demon-possessed'). A person may terminate the
interaction by eliminating the 'hook' or closing the 'door' that allowed
them in to begin with.
***************
I answered all questions with a literal interpretation. Although I'd like
to believe in some "non-physical" aspect of life, if pressed I'd have to
say that I believe EVERY aspect of human behavior, personality, motivation,
etc boils down to the chemical and electrical activity in the brain. When
it stops, that's it. The behavior the woman refers to is caused by a
chemical imbalance and there are no demons involved. I think it is a
sad commentary on American education and intelligence when people invoke
superstitious nonsense such as demons to explain what they don't understand.
(Note: my medical knowledge is weak, but I seem to recall that in several
cases of schizophrenia it has been shown that a low level of Lithium could
be raised with quite effective results in terms of a "cure").
********
15. If you would like, include your interpretation of this subject matter. Be
as concise as possible please.
The human mind is an amazing thing. Not only can it conceive
of gods and devils, but it can contain them.
*********
15. If you would like, include your interpretation of this subject matter. Be
as concise as possible please.
The Church's position on possession is that it happens, but
rarely. Usually it is indicated by extrordinary signs, such as the
possessed speaking in a language he does not know, paranormal
phenomena, the possessed having knowlege of hidden things which could
not know, etc. It's usually a very tricky call, at least from what I've
read.
As to "selling one's soul", while I don't believe that a
contract, a la Faust's ,would keep God's mercy from the truly repentant,
a unrepentant sorcerer might be in trouble, especially if they were
directly insulting God.
*********
12 Not in the Faustian sense, but non-christians have essentially done
something of that nature more or less unknowingly.
14 yes. In material terms, I'm not sure (I wonder of the flames/heat
were meant to be symbolic in scripture). But I do believe it WON'T
be fun, that primarily it will be an eternity of having wrong
choices tearing at your soul, and especially, it will be an
eternity of KNOWLEDGE, of who Jesus Christ was, and that you
turned your back on him. This is somewhat babbling (sorry I'm
doing this quickly), but I think the worst thing about it will
be being separated from God and knowing it was by your own choice.
**********
I do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I do believe that the
word of God can be found in the Bible.
>9. Do you believe that there is a supernatural being called Satan? Yes_x No__
I do believe in a temptor, whether he's called Satan or not is up to
him. To my (perhaps outmoded) thinking, the existance of God requires
the existance of a devil. The existance of God requires the existance
of angels. The existance of a devil requires the existance of demons.
(See above.) However, I don't believe that any soul is beyond saving.
My view of hell is spending all of eternity looking back on all the many
mistakes I've made in my life. (I've received a foretaste of this on
many nights. I guess we all have.)
As I've indicated, I don't believe many of these answers can be answered
with a Yes or a No. We two may answer the same question differently,
but still stand quite closely on our views.
*****
"Hell" is whatever you make for yourself. It could be in this life
if you are that messed-up. As a believer in Karma, I believe that
you get what you deserve, eventually.
Although I think that demon possession is "possible," this woman's contention
that her tenants are such is an example of her over-simplistic interpretation
of their psychological problems. As with most fundimentalist christians,
she interpretes others behaviors based upon her own extremely limited
biases.
******
It's not a place, rather a state of mind. Just as "the kingdom of G-d is
within you", so too I believe that Hell is within. It is a state of separation
form G-d, of ultimate loneliness and despair. However, note that though the
sufferer feels remote from (or is unaware of) G-d's presence, G-d is there
always.
9. I don't believe in a personified evil being. To do so, in my mind, becomes
dangerously dualistic. However, I believe that evil perpetuates itself, and can
become embodied in the habitual behaviours of groups of people.
10 & 11. See answer to 9 on the existence of demons. I believe however that
evil done to people (such as child abuse and torture) can manifest itself in
the behaviour of the victim in forms that are identical to "demon possession."
A good example is multiple personality disorder.
12 & 13. I believe that people can make a conscious decision to forsake good
and pursue evil, endangering their souls. My belief in a compassionate G-d
makes it difficult to believe in eternal damnation, but I also recognize that
G-d is not how I make G-d, but how G-d is.
In general, I prefer to concentrate on G-d and the power of good than to obsess
myself with codifying evil and sin. While bad things may result in not loving
G-d with all our hearts, our aim should not be to avoid the bad consequences,
but rather to look to the wonderful things that come to pass when we turn over
our lives to G-d.
Note that in all questions like these, I am fully aware that my beliefs only
reflect my ignorance. In all things, G-d's will is the only one that matters.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to Face."
***********
"possession by demons" seems to me an ancient conepts of coping with psycho-
neural dysfunction. most of the "witches" tried in New England and other
places were plain women (often widows) who were "socially inconvenient" to
greedy men.
--
*****
(8) The word of God, yes, but filtered through men and therefore not
perfect.
(12) as a metaphor only; not as an actual signed legal transaction.
I'm a Universalist by conviction; this means that I believe that
everyone will eventually be saved, and that there is no permanent
Hell.
*****
15. Schizophrenic people _can_ be demonically possessed. However, I believe t at people who have truly confessed Christ as their savior cannot be touched by
satan and his demons, and since I have known Christian schiz. patients, that
cannot be a blanket statement. there is a literal hell, just as there is a lit-eral heaven. The soul is eternal, so it is impossible to lose it- meaning that I believe that thos ein hell still retain their memory and personality. they
are, however, separated totally from God. See Luke 18- this is not a parable
but a literal event.
*********
C.S. Lewis had an interesting idea about Hell in _The_Great_Divorce_.
It's a place where people exist apart from God -- so we can have
everything we think we want, can be as selfish or mean as we want. I
think it might be something like that.
*******
10. Do you believe there is such a thing as demon possession? NOT IN THE
SENSE THAT SOME SUPERNATURAL AGENCY HAS CONTROL OVER YOU. I BELIEVE
THAT POSSESSION IS SIMPLY A (HIGHLY) ABNORMAL MENTAL STATE.
12. Do you believe it is possible to "sell your soul to the devil"? NO. BUT
I DON'T DOUBT THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO *BELIEVE* THAT YOU HAVE DONE
SO. IF YOU BELIEVE IT STRONGLY ENOUGH, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE (I.E.
YOU'RE GONNA BE IN PRETTY SAD SHAPE, AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO LIVE IN
YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD).
14. Do you believe that there is such a thing as Hell? NO. BUT YOU COULD
CERTAINLY CREATE A "LIVING HELL" FOR YOURSELF IF YOU WERE SUFFICIENTLY
SCREWED UP MENTALLY AND/OR EMOTIONALLY (SEE ABOVE).
If yes, describe briefly what you think it would be like: PROBABLY ALL OF
YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS HATES/FEARS/INSECURITIES/NIGHTMARES ETC., NOT TO
MENTION SERIOUS PARANOIA, DELUSIONS, ETC. - I.E. IN A SEVERE ENOUGH
CASE YOU'D SUFFER COMPLETE BREAK FROM REALITY (PSYCHOSIS).
15. If you would like, include your interpretation of this subject matter. Be
as concise as possible please.
A FRIEND OF MINE HAS AN INTERESTING IDEA OF THE "AFTERLIFE" (WHICH I
BELIEVE I HAVE SEEN ELSEWHERE, THOUGH NOT IN EXACTLY THE SAME FORM):
HE SUGGESTS THAT AS YOU DIE, YOUR BRAIN SLOWS DOWN AS IT STARVES FOR
OXYGEN. THE LAST THOUGHTS THAT YOU THINK WILL THUS STRETCH OUT INTO
A SUBJECTIVE "FOREVER". IF YOU DIE PEACEFULLY/HAPPILY, THAT'S HEAVEN.
IF YOU DIE IN A STATE OF SERIOUS GUILT/HATE/ETC, ALL YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS
GARBAGE COMES OUT AS YOUR MENTAL INTEGRITY BREAKS DOWN AND YOU SPEND
FOREVER BEING TORMENTED BY YOUR HATES/FEARS, THINGS LEFT UNDONE, ETC.
SOUNDS LIKE HELL TO ME!
******************
15. If you would like, include your interpretation of this subject matter. Be
as concise as possible please.
I think all "demon possession" cases, including those in the Bible, can be
explained as mental illness or other disease. Some of the cases of
possession are, I believe, embellished either consciously or not,
depending on the intent, belief, and education of the people observing
and the people who experienced such events. (See the discussion (read,
"FLAME war") in sci.skeptic on the reliability of human recollection.)
**********
I believe that Hell is a state of spiritual existence that begins before the
death of the corporal self. Hell continues after death either in the form
of re-incarnation on earth or in another plane of existence if the suffering
soul chooses to continue to suffer.
I do not believe in the classic notion of "demons" or "Satan". I believe that
their mythological signifcance serves to teach us that there is evil in all
of us. Those that are evil on a grand scale are "satans".
The definition of schizophrenia is a mental disease that afflicts the subject
in such a way as to decrease or remove the subjects awareness of reality. Also
the ability to distinguish one's imagination from reality is decreased or
remove in schizophrenic patients.
Mental patients who suffer from multiple personalities are not schizophrenic
per se. I believe the subject of your original posting really should have
used the term "multiple personalities" rather than schizoprhrenic.
Anyway, I believe that people who suffer from multiple personalities are
not possessed by demons, or at least demons that are separate evil souls
that inhabit the bodies of these people. I believe that sometimes people
are emotionally traumatized so much that they will develop multiple
personas to survive. This is a mental and not a spiritual affliction.
I believe that the landlady's beliefs regarding demonic possession reflects
ignorance to the science of psychology. This ignorance could be a very
powerful and dangerous thing. People were burned at the stake because they
were thought to have been possessed by evil spirits and demons.
The "Exorcist" and the "Omen" are tales of fantasy. I do not believe that
it is a positive thing to believe in the mistaken beliefs of the Dark Ages
in this day and age. Yes, evil does exist, but I believe it exists within the
souls of people, and not from and an outside source.
*********
#8 I do not believe it is necessary to interpret the Bible literally.
Nor do I think there is a conflict between the Bible and what we
learn from science. I think creationists and those who interpret
the bible from a fundamentalist perspective are missing the point
of what the Bible is trying to teach them.
#9 I believe there are intelligent beings (other than humans) with free
will who existed before the creation of men. I believe that some of
these beings chose to rebel against God.
#10 yes, but I think it's very rare
#12 yes, but not in the sense that someone appears in a puff of smoke
with a contract in hand. I think it's much more subtle than that.
People who, for example, sacrifice their principles for the sake
of material gain are "selling out to the devil." In other words,
I consider the expression a metaphor. Likewise, the situation can
be reversed through the redemption of Christ up until one dies.
#13 With some reluctance, I think I have to admit that a person may
choose to reject Christ's offer. If we are not allowed to freely
accept or reject redemption, we are no longer free beings. At what
point a person's decision becomes final I don't know.
*******
I think this lady has probably never really thought about the opinions that
were taught to her when she was a child. She probably is uneducated, and is
superstitious.
*********
It bothers me that people who do believe this kind of
stuff can influence the laws that limit all our lives.
*****
Metal illness is a hard point to figure out. Most of it is
genetic, and chemical in nature, but can be brought on by mental
stress or pressure. Once we get this gene map down, well start
making more progress with the human mind. This most interesting and
yet the biggest chalange that we have to date. I myself cant even
figure out why the human body has to sleep let alone figure out what
mental health is all about.
******
No CONCRETE idea. THe diference between heaven and hell may be more
conceptual than anything else. We all go to a place of our choosing.
Hell is a state where we as humans choose isolation over interrelatedness
and intimacy. We choose our "selves" as we've developed over time
over our inner selves where the image of God resides.
I personally have a somewhat universalistic streak, that thinks we
may be still make choices after death.
>15. If you would like, include your interpretation of this subject matter. Be
>as concise as possible please.
I do believe in entities that we call demons. Basically I believe that
there are other intelligent forms of life very different from us.
The ancients would have called them angels, gods, demons and devils.
To quote the Bible, "by their works you will know them". That which affirms
life and creation and its goodness is from God, and that which denies or
destroys the same is not. Is there such a thing as "demon possession"?
Well, probably. Catholics and Orthodox accept it, but believe it is very rare.
Most people of a more literalist bent see demon possession around every corner.
That's being deliberately anti-intellectual. God doesn't call us to be stupid.
Jesus said to come to him as a little child (open, honest, trusting),
not lobotomized.
***********
I think the woman landlady was possessed of demons.
****************
The Bible is clear that mental illness is separate from demon possession.
I don't have the reference handy, but in one place it says that Jesus
cast out demons *and* healed those who were "lunatic". I could go on,
but let me refer you to Merril F. Unger's work "Biblical Demonology"
(Moody Press), and for a definitely non-Christian look at demonism,
an article entitled "Hear that Long Snake Moan" in the Whole Earth
Review. (It was in two parts, I believe one was summer 1987.) The
latter is fascinating, and should cause any Christian to stop and
think. Be prepared for some vulgar languange, though.
***********
I think that demons and demonic energy actively operate on humans, but
that not all problems, mental-physical-emotional-psychological, are
caused by demons. I believe that all power on heaven and on earth has
been given by the Father to the Son Jesus, and that in His name many
problems can be dealt with effectively.
Much of Jesus's three-year ministry involved
the casting out of demons, and he commissioned his followers to do it
in his name. As far as I can tell, judging from how applicable the
words and person of Jesus are to _my_ life, human nature has not changed
to the extent that a large portion of what Jesus did could have been
_better_ done with a more _advanced_ understanding of psychology or
medicine. No, I don't think the things he did could be could have been
better done by scientists today, although I assume that they can treat
some of the problems he dealt with swiftly. I also I assume that his focus on
demon-
possession was for a purpose. But I also believe that the truths that
doctors learn and apply are excellent and yet do not obviate the
ministry of Jesus. But no work of any kind is good without the love and
concern that God has for each of us, all equally in need of Him.
I pray in the name of Jesus that your research goes forward with love
and truth, and that all you learn has the effect of helping those who
need help. Most of all, may all glory go to the Creator God, who made
the Universe and who made us to have fellowship with Him, to Jesus His
Son, one with the Father--who is indeed the Life and the Truth--and who
is ready to act in power and love--to the Holy Spirit, one with the
Father and the Son--the Counselor sent when Jesus returned to the
Father, who can help us with every problem. To the triune, three-
personed God--All Honor and Praise.
*********
As you could tell, I found it impossible to answer most of your questions,
because the assumptions implicit in their wording made a Y/N answer impossible.
Now, for my answers --
8. Somebody's god, not mine. I don't tend to like desert gods, they are too
much like the desert -- inflexible and not conducive to life and growth.
9. The Christian Satan is a mishmash -- jumbling the Hebrew Satan (derived
from the Egyptian Set and the Zoroastrian Ahrimin (sp?)) with a nasty
takeoff on various European gods. Since I believe that gods and men are
mutually dependent, enough centuries of people believing in this mishmash has
given it power -- but again, this being is someone else's problem, not mine.
10. A person can be "posessed" by a being, and that being's purposes are not
necessarily congruent with ours. That could be construed as "demonic".
11. I have met my share of psychotics -- some of them are psychicly damaged,
mostly (in my experience) in not having "shielding". Their auras, if you
will, are "open". I could see these people being more suseptible to
"posession".
12. What do you mean by "sell your soul"? (and, of course, devil). You can
enter into a relationship with a god, and that can give you powers and
abilities.
13. How can you lose you?
********
15) -------The following is a very brief description of---------
-------what I believe to be my experience with the----------
-------subject of demonic possession.-----------------------
Most of my siblings are adopted. All are younger than I am.
One of them was a Sioux Indian girl, aged 8 at the time of adoption,
who suffered from EXTREME maternal deprivation as an infant. This
girl destroyed my parent's family, causing extensive psycological
damage to many family members, especially those siblings younger than
she was.
She did not barf pea soup, nor twirl her head - yet I cannot watch
a horror movie dealing with demonic possession or any form of RAW EVIL
without remembering her. But most of those memories have been buried
deep in my subconscious, and what I really remember are the feelings.
She taught me what true evil looks like, and believe me it isn't as
obvious as Hollywood depicts it. But it is every bit as scary. Monsters
do walk among us, as is evident when a major horror-crime hits the news.
If you are interested in knowing anything more, please ask specific
questions. And I would appreciate it if you'd keep my name, etc. out
of the public/net eye....
*********
divine@uunet.uu.net (Kevin Divine) (03/22/91)
For all of you who read my urging to read luke 18, I 'm sorry- I meant 15, the parable of lazarus and the rich man. horribly embarrassed, kevin divine
psburns@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) (03/25/91)
My heart breaks when I look at the results of this survey and I see so many respondents claim to be Christians (at least they claim association with some denomination) yet the majority of them do not believe in the existence of Satan or hell as is portrayed in Scripture, and for that matter, deny the perfection and inerrancy of the Bible as the authoritative Word of God. Proverb 30:5,6---"Every word of God is flawless. It is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His word or He will rebuke you and prove you to be liar." So many of the responses were so far off base scripturally! It's no wonder that there is confusion, disillusionment and heartache in the world. Maureen
starpath@falseface.mit.edu (David E. Hollingsworth) (03/27/91)
In article <Mar.25.03.45.22.1991.7245@athos.rutgers.edu>, psburns@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) writes: |> My heart breaks when I look at the results of this survey and I see so many |> respondents claim to be Christians (at least they claim association with |> some denomination) yet the majority of them do not believe in the existence |> of Satan or hell as is portrayed in Scripture, and for that matter, deny |> the perfection and inerrancy of the Bible as the authoritative Word of God. I was saddened by the statistics as well, but for quite the opposite reason; that is, people still feel that they need to perpetuate "The Threat"-- that is, you must cooperate with the church or burn forever. To claim that scriptural references to hell cannot be taken metaphorically (after all, even those that view the hell concept as literally real must use reference to Gehenna metaphorically--to extend the metaphor is not beyond reason) brings us back to "my beliefs are better than your beliefs"; an argument that tends to puff up egos and inhibit the kind of communication leads to searching for truth. This attitude is portrayed very well by casting doubt on other's Christianity, simply because they don't share some beliefs that you have. While I must admit that I'm not very knowledgable about such things, I can't remember a single instance of Jesus saying, "You must believe in hellfire and sulfurous fumes and eternal damnation to enter the kingdom of heaven." I presume that the reason that you come to the conclusion that these people (of which I am a member) are unChristian is that you believe that they are contradicting the Word of God, and because "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." (Matthew 12:30), these people therefore cannot be part of the assembly to which to attribute your membership to; ie, they are not Christian. I want to understand what has caused you to come to these conclusions. I hope that you have been reading David Buxton's DEATH & HELL postings; it is certainly NOT obvious that the conclusions that you have come to are the only reasonable conclusions. (I am not in complete agreement with those postings either, but I'm not denying their reasonability.) |> Proverb 30:5,6---"Every word of God is flawless. It is a shield to those |> who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His word or He will rebuke you and |> prove you to be liar." Nobody is denying that "every word of God is flawless;" the question is, rather, is this book that I refer to as "the Bible" literally the "Word of God"? That is, did God influence the writers, the translators, the transcribers, the printers, the committees to decide canonical form, and you as the reader enough so that what He wants you to know, you will understand? If so, then I must admit that some of us have been doing something quite wrong when we come to conclusions that are different from the traditional norm! (Whether such different conclusions are important enough to judge if a person is Christian or not is an entirely different question.) It is a bootstrapping problem: if you believe that the Bible is the "Word of God" and not simply a God-inspired book from man, then it's quite easy to justify your beliefs scripturally. However, it is also true that if you believe that the Bible is God-inspired, but not God-manipulated, then it is as well quite possible to justify your beliefs scripturally. (I am not saying that they are both _correct_ justifications, just that one can try to justify each, and do a reasonable job at it.) |> So many of the responses were so far off base scripturally! It's no wonder |> that there is confusion, disillusionment and heartache in the world. I'm not sure that you can attribute the world's problems to a lack of belief in a hell or Satan. Rather, people will tend to be unhappy if they believe that a supernatural being is going to cause them harm until they are dead, I'm glad that you have a defined set of beliefs, but I certainly hope that you don't really think that your own beliefs are infallible,.. |> Maureen David E. Hollingsworth starpath@athena.mit.edu
AMillar@cup.portal.com (04/01/91)
>|> So many of the responses were so far off base scripturally! It's no wonder >|> that there is confusion, disillusionment and heartache in the world. > > I'm not sure that you can attribute the world's problems to a >lack of belief in a hell or Satan. Rather, people will tend to be >unhappy if they believe that a supernatural being is going to cause >them harm until they are dead No, you cannot attribute the world's problems to a lack of belief in hell or Satan. However, you CAN attribute the world's problems to a lack of belief in Jesus Christ and God the Father. The fact is that Satan exists whether you believe it or not. I know that he tries to harrass me; it certainly does not make me unhappy that I can bind him through the power of Jesus Christ. I WOULD be unhappy if I did not have the protection of Jesus! You can choose not to believe in the existence of Satan, but that will not make any difference in whether or not he really does exist. I can choose not to believe in mis-use of money by my government or my bank because that would make me unhappy. Not believing will not protect me from the ill results of it, even though I may not see the results directly. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can lead happy lives, no matter what other things we choose to believe or not believe in. - Alan Millar AMillar@cup.portal.com
lindborg@snow.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) (04/05/91)
In article <Apr.1.02.43.24.1991.7368@athos.rutgers.edu> AMillar@cup.portal.com writes: >> I'm not sure that you can attribute the world's problems to a >>lack of belief in a hell or Satan. Rather, people will tend to be >>unhappy if they believe that a supernatural being is going to cause >>them harm until they are dead > >No, you cannot attribute the world's problems to a lack of belief in hell >or Satan. However, you CAN attribute the world's problems to a lack of >belief in Jesus Christ and God the Father. Well, so says you anyway... >The fact is that Satan exists whether you believe it or not. Any evidence to back this pressing "fact" up? Simply pointing out the "evil" and "sin" in the world does not preclude the existence of Satan(TM)... >I can choose not to believe in mis-use of money by my government or my bank >because that would make me unhappy. Not believing will not protect >me from the ill results of it, even though I may not see the results >directly. Yes, but the evidence of misuse CAN be seen and proven. Satan, however, cannot be seen and his existence CANNOT be proven any more than God's can. >It is only through Jesus Christ that we can lead happy lives, no matter >what other things we choose to believe or not believe in. So everyone of the rest of us (that is people who do not conform to your rather narrow view of the "truth") are really unhappy? Happiness is not possible through any other system of beliefs than Christianity. Period. So if we seem happy, we're really just fooling ourselves to cover up our missery. And here I thought I was feeling so good.... Jeff Lindborg