stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (04/04/91)
In article <Apr.1.02.44.36.1991.7380@athos.rutgers.edu> c9037544@cc.newcastle.edu.au (David Williams) writes: Hi David! Here are a few more comments about parts of your Trinity proof. >This is in response to some questions about the deity of Christ, and the >doctrine of the Trinity and such matters. >THE DEITY OF CHRIST. > B. Proved by His characteristics. > 1. Omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). > 2. Omniscience (John 1:48). Omnipotence? ------------ You site Mathew 28:18 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: 'All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." Paul writes of the one BIG exception: 1 Cor 15:24-28 "Next, the end, when [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to *his* God and Father....For [Jehovah] "subjected all things under [Jesus] feet." But when [Jehovah] says that "all things have been subjected," IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF [JEHOVAH] WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO HIM. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the Once who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." Omniscience? ------------ You site John 1:48 "Nathanael said to him: "how does it come that you know me?" Jesus in answer said to him: "Before Philip called you, while you were under the fig tree, I saw you." I don't see that this is saying that Jesus is Omniscience. But, let us assume that some do. Is Jesus Omniscience? Math 24:36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." POINT: Jesus is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient. With love, Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep
3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Raphael Martelles) (04/05/91)
In article <Apr.4.01.18.25.1991.15316@athos.rutgers.edu> cadence!stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) writes: >In article <Apr.1.02.44.36.1991.7380@athos.rutgers.edu> c9037544@cc.newcastle.edu.au (David Williams) writes: > >> B. Proved by His characteristics. >> 1. Omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). >> 2. Omniscience (John 1:48). > {Stuff Deleted} >------------ >POINT: > > Jesus is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient. > What about omnipresent? Seems like Jesus can be in two places at the same time to me... "Where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst." (Matthew 18:20.) So, if I have a prayer meeting in my church, Jesus is there, right? And if someone has a prayer meeting in China, Jesus will be there as well. He has to, because He wouldn't lie to us... In John 3:13, Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus and He says, "And no man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man *which is in heaven*." (emphasis mine.) KJV So, it seems like Jesus _CAN_ be in two places at once. Now if Jesus can be in many places at once, and He knows the hearts and minds of men (Acts 1:24), how could He NOT know everything? Hmmm... > >With love, > >Steve Peterson With love, Raph -- Raphael Dominic Martelles <>< 3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu IX0YE "Christianity isn't a crutch, it's a stretcher. You can't even hobble into heaven!"
emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.4.01.18.25.1991.15316@athos.rutgers.edu> cadence!stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) writes: > Jesus is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient. "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to bring all things under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21) Steve, the Scripture does teach the awesome, great power of our Lord Jesus. This power allows Him to bring all things under His control. And one day, by this glorious power of His, He will transform our bodies into ones of great glory! As far as this power that enables Him to bring things under His control, He also said: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32) By His power, He is drawing you and I and all men unto Himself. Not only is this so, yet His power in universal: "The Son is the exact radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." (Hebrews 1:3) The Bible goes on to describe this power of His as a great creative power and reiterates His sustaining power: "For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earht, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." (Colossians 1:16-17) About the omnipotence of Jesus, Steve writes: >Paul writes of the one BIG exception: > >1 Cor 15:24-28 > > "Next, the end, when [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to *his* God and > Father....For [Jehovah] "subjected all things under [Jesus] feet." > But when [Jehovah] says that "all things have been subjected," > IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF [JEHOVAH] WHO SUBJECTED ALL > THINGS TO HIM. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then > the Son himself will also subject himself to the Once who subjected all > things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." This is a good point and I understand where your questioning would come from. But does this Scripture mean that Jesus is less than God? First of all, can we really say that this Scripture voids the omnipotence of Jesus? I would dare to say not. The fact that Jesus' power is not independent of the Father only stresses the unity and "oneness" they share. In other words, Jesus does not act independently of the Father. Next, in the end, will Jesus be less exalted then He is now? I would also dare say not, for in Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 He retains the title of "King of kings and Lord of Lords". And as I shared in an earlier posting, He is worshipped in heaven along with the Father! The Father and He are the reason that no sun is needed for "the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp" (Rev. 21:24). Finally, does the fact the the Father is referred to as the God of Jesus with Jesus being in submission to Him, make Him less than God? First of all, I ask myself "is submission a godly characteristic"? Or in other words, are we more godly or like God the more submissive we are? The answer I have found is yes. Jesus told His disciples, "whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:43-45) In order for submission to be a godly characteristic, God must be submissive. However if only the Father were considered God, then who would He be submissive to? But with the Son as God, we see both the sumpreme authority of God (in the Father) and the supreme submission of God (in the Son). For it is written of Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:6-8) It is the same with all the other characteristics of God. For instance, love. In 1 John 4, it is written that God is love. And what is love? Is love just a feeling? No. Love is something that takes more than one person, because love is giving. Love is selfless acts of good on behalf of another. If God is love and God is unchanging, He must have been love for all eternity, before creation. In order for God to be love, there must be more than one person. This love relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an eternal one. For it is also written that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58) and also of the Son it is written, "In the beginning the Word was with God" (John 1:1) with the Word referring to Jesus. And also of Jesus it is written: "The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father and has appeared to us." (1 John 1:2) Thus the Son is omnipotent, submissive, and eternal. The peace of Christ be yours, John Emery emery@tc.fluke.COM