murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) (04/01/91)
Here's a topic we haven't discussed in a while: tithing. A couple questions: 1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? 2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church and other Christian organizations? 3) Do you think Christian businesses should tithe as individuals do? What about churches and charities tithing part of their income?
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (04/02/91)
In Genesis we read that Abraham paid tithes to the priest Melchizedek of Salem. So tithing predates the Mosaic Law and thus (IMHO) was not one of the ceremonial laws fulfilled at the Cross. In my church the tithe is used mostly for the salary of ministers; as a result the majority of the employees of the church are ministers (even in some places where it might be better if they were not ministers, such as financial officers, etc.) Steve Timm
jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Johann) (04/02/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu>, murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: > Here's a topic we haven't discussed in a while: tithing. > > A couple questions: > 1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an > Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? I have my own opinions about this question which think that tithing is outdated. I would like to know how many feel about this question. Do you think it is necessary for the Christian to tithe part of his/her time as well as money? (i.e. should all Christians devote part of their time to prayer, Bible study, helping charitable organizations etc?) I know that all of these things are important, but I could not devote %10 of my daily activities to them, nor do I think God expects me to. > 2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that > our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. > Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church > and other Christian organizations? My personal opinion is that you should be allowed to give your money to whoever you feel deserves it most. If you're not sure who to give your money to, pray about it. You'll receive an answer. > 3) Do you think Christian businesses should tithe as individuals do? > What about churches and charities tithing part of their income? Again, my own personal opinion is that there is no such thing as a Christian business. There are Christians who run and own businesses, but a business cannot, of and by itself, be Christian. If the Christian running the business feels that tithing is an important part of worship, than that Christian should tithe what income he or she receives from the business. My personal feelings, however, say that this is not necessary. -Jon Anderson
sobarr@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Carlos Saul Menem) (04/02/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu> murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: >Here's a topic we haven't discussed in a while: tithing. > >A couple questions: >1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an >Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? >2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that >our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. For me, it seems that tithing went out in the new testament, and the apostles introduced a common order of things. (Acts 2:44, 4:32-37 and the poor story of Ananias and Sapphira 5:1-11). Christ himself told one "follower" to "sell what-soever thou hast and give to the poor..."(Mark 10:21 [1-22]). The two verses that I can find in the NT that talk about tithing refer to the Jews observing it, but forgetting higher laws (Matt. 23:23), and in the parable of the Pharisee and publican where the Pharisee syas that he obeys the law fasting twice a week, and giving tithes of all that he posses (Luke 18:12). {Heb 7:2 also refers to tithing, but this is in talking about Abraham}. I would venture to say in my LDS thinking that tithing is a good practice inthat we must give up a portion of our goods to further the earthy kingdom, but that it is a "lesser law" and that we should be willing to give up all as the apostles taught. As pointed out by the scriptures in Mark and Luke, it must be done with real intent, and not just to comply with the law. It's interesting to note that the early Mormon chuch (mid-latter 1800's) had the law of consecration and the united order, but were later replaced by the law of tithing due to the selfishness of men (thus a lesser law). But none the less, Mormons use Malachi 3:10 to show that the law of tithing is of God (The modern day scripture would be D&C 119 which says that tithing "shall be a standing law unto them forever" v.4) The tithing is put into a general tithing fund of the Church and used to further the work of the Lord. Some of this goes into the world wide welfare system (storehouse) which is used to feed, cloth and help the needy of all nations and faiths. en Cristo un pecador steve
lieuwen@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Lieuwen) (04/03/91)
It strikes me that Jesus never gave an easier standard on the really hard things. He modified the dietary law (although more in theory during his life than in practice), but those laws were not an overly difficult to follow. The ceremonial laws are also relatively easy to follow by comparison to the higher standard Jesus proclaimed in other areas. Not only are we not to commit adultry, we are not to have lust in our hearts. Not only are we not to murder, we are not to hate. These are certainly much harder commands to obey than the ceremonial laws. Given this and the fact that how a person uses there money both forms the kind of person they will become and shows the kind of person they currently are, I think the tithe is the minimum standard. If you wish to give up tithing because you wish to give more to God, that's great. If you wish to give less (for some reason other than great personal hardship--which is likely to be the case of few of us on the net. I'm a grad student, and I'm convinced that if one sets one's priorities right, it's not difficult. It just requires a little discipline.), then you need to take a good look at your motives. Jesus didn't call us to a path with easier requirements. He just promised to help us fulfill them, and to forgive us when we fall (if we sincerely repent and resolve to avoid repeating the offence). Dan
chappell@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Glenn Chappell) (04/03/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu> murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: >1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an >Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? (note: "tithe 10%" is redundant, since a tithe = 10%) "Superceded"? Certainly! Christ freed us from the law. But churches do need money, and if a child of God with the Holy Spirit can't be more generous than the Israelites without the Holy Spirit were *required* to be, then something's seriously wrong. So, yes, all Christians ought to give their church 10% of their income - *at*least*. >2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that >our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. >Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church >and other Christian organizations? Why split it? Your church needs money. Further, you are *part*of* your church, so your first responsibility is to it, as opposed to other organizations. So, if you want to give to other organizations, you can give above & beyond what you give to your church. Understand that God says generosity will be rewarded, and God is faithful. So, those of us that are Christians, let's "put our money where our mouth is". It's easy (for me at least) to trust God for eternal life...but trusting that God will reward me for generosity is a serious exercise of faith. Try it! GGC <><
psburns@lims04.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) (04/04/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu>, murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes... >Here's a topic we haven't discussed in a while: tithing. > >A couple questions: >1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an >Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? >2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that >our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. >Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church >and other Christian organizations? >3) Do you think Christian businesses should tithe as individuals do? >What about churches and charities tithing part of their income? Funny you should raise this issue. I am currently reading Larry Burkett's book entitled *Business by the Book* which is an excellent treatment of the scriptural aspects of running a business. There is an entire chapter devoted to the subject of whether a Christian business should tithe. Mr. Burkett brought out some great points that I really never considered: 1. Tithing, as described in the Old Testament, really was never part of the Law. There never was any punishment for failure to tithe. Rather, tithing sprung from the necessity of supporting the Jewish folks who were the keepers of the Temple and the administrators of the faith. This burden of support was taken up by the faithful who realized that what they were blessed with was theirs only through the hand of God. Although there was no punishment for failure to tithe, God did say there were consequences. 2. As far as whether the idea changed during the New Testament times, consider this: In the NT, God was very explicit whenever He referred to an Old Testament teaching, and if the teaching was changed from the Old Testament, He was very explicit to explain the change. Such changes applied to the Sabbath, divorce, sacrifice, for example. Never did Jesus mention any change to the issue of tithing. Therefore, one can assume that tithing is just as applicable today as it was in the Old Testament times. 3. God loves a cheerful giver. I don't believe he wants what we give him grudgingly. If you're hesistant to give, don't give at all. Tithing isn't something we can use to push a button with God, and have him dump his blessings on us If we give out of an obligation or with resentment, I would venture to guess that God, who sees the motives of our hearts, will not honor that giving as he would if it were given with a pure motive and a joyful heart. 4. As far as 10%, "tithe" translates to "a tenth". Net or gross? God's word says to tithe from "first fruits" or, as I see it, from that which comes to you. I don't feel comfortable with my Holy and Mighty God standing in line behind the government who's collecting taxes, and behind my creditors who are collecting their interest (due to my poor $ management, I confess). I make a lot of money, and I truly consider it a priveledge to honor the Lord from my finances with my tithe. I love seeing where my money goes in the ministries at my church. I love knowing that in a small way, I am helping touch lives for Jesus Christ. I don't mean to say that everyone should think as I do. God worked mightily in my life to develop my attitude toward giving. I encourage everyone to let Him do the same in your own life. Maureen Burns [There are legal and ethical issues involved with businesses. Certainly for public corporations, a business has a fiduciary responsibility to its owners to concentrate on the purpose for which it was established, which is generally some sort of economic activity. They also have responsibilities that are somewhat less clearly defined to employees, customers, etc. In plain terms, this means that in most cases the primary duty of a business is to manufacture things, provide services, and make money. It would be unethical, and I am reasonably sure illegal, for managers of a company to divert its resources for religious purposes that they personally consider important. Once dividends from the business have been paid to its stockholders or owners, they are perfectly free to use them for whatever purposes they see fit. We will hope that this includes support of their church. I confess that I'm not sufficiently versed in law to know whether there are businesses to which this does not apply. There are certainly Christian bookstores and other enterprises that have advancing Christianity as part of their stated purpose. My gut feeling is that even in this case there might be problems. But in other cases, I am reasonably sure that the law (probably in the form of the S.E.C.) would look very dimly upon the concept of a company tithing. --clh]
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (04/04/91)
Glenn Chappell writes:
----------------------------------------
Why split it?
Your church needs money. Further, you are *part*of* your church, so
your first responsibility is to it, as opposed to other organizations.
So, if you want to give to other organizations, you can give above &
beyond what you give to your church.
Understand that God says generosity will be rewarded, and God is
faithful. So, those of us that are Christians, let's "put our money
where our mouth is". It's easy (for me at least) to trust God for
eternal life...but trusting that God will reward me for generosity is
a serious exercise of faith. Try it!
----------------------------------------
My view of tithing is that it is indeed part of the Law of which
Christ is the end. For this reason it is, as Paul and Jesus both say,
summed up in the commandments to love God and one's neighbor.
To my mind, these issues get clouded by the institutional character of
the `church'. Because the visible church exists largely as an
organization with institutional characteristics, it has all the
imperatives of other human institutions, like paying salaries and
bills, buying and building buildings etc.
Whether or not God intended that the church should come to be like
this, I have little doubt that the early Church didn't do things like
this.
From what I can remember in the New Testament, there were only two
things the early Christians ever spent money on as Christians: 1) To
meet the needs of poor Christians, and 2) To support the ministries of
the Apostles and other leaders. In the first instance, our main
recorded example of this is when Paul discusses the matter with the
Corinthians, telling to lay money aside as God has prospered them.
The emphasis here is on the completely voluntary nature of the giving,
where Paul says that each should give as they've decided in their
hearts. Note also that this is a one time thing that the Gentile
churches agreed to participate in to relieve the Jerusalem Christians
of the hard times they were going through.
In the second instance, the recorded examples all involve money given
to individuals. In one case, Paul says that anyone who is taught by
someone should share his material goods with that person. In another
case, the Phillipians send money to Paul. I don't recall, off hand,
any other instances. (Paul also says that those who preach the Gospel
should live by it.)
The way I read this second instance is that my money should be given
either to people whose teaching I am receiving, or to people whom God
is using to grow his church in whose ministry I wish to participate.
There is no example of giving money to an organization like our
current churches.
One might say that in those primitive times that was the equivalent of
what we do now. But I think there are some important issues that this
overlooks.
1) It is now the normal case for pastors and the like to receive a
salary. In what way does this show any more faith in God's ability to
provide than I have to show when I pick up my paycheck? Shouldn't
there be SOME way in which the spiritual head of the church stands out
in practical faith? The normal case, also, is that the pastor should
live as well as the congregation. This means that, for example, I,
when I was relatively poor, could watch the edifying spectacle of my
pastor driving a Porche and living in a large, expensive house, when I
was driving a motorcycle and sleeping in a 60 sq. foot bedroom. (This
is a large evangelical church, by the way.)
2) These days financial accountability is a big matter. The way I see
it, though, giving should be just that: giving. If the spiritual
leader I give the money to takes it and bets it on a horse, that
should be between him and God. I am not buying something, or paying
for something; I am giving my money away because I feel that's what
God wants me to do with it. What this means is that I have to take
some responsibility. I probably shouldn't give money to spiritual
leaders who play the horses. But once the money is out of my hands,
that should be it.
The point is that the relationship of giving and receiving should be a
personal one. I should give to someone who I know and feel God is
using, perhaps because God has used that person in my life; perhaps
because I've heard of results elsewhere. This is what I see happening
in the New Testament.
3) I've never seen any biblical justification for the Church of Jesus
Christ to own property. In light of the fact that Christ himself had
nowhere to lay his head, it seems like some of the edifices that
represent him are a bit much.
4) The Church has been notorious through history to this very day for
literally looting credulous believers. This makes unbelievers have
that much more trouble taking Christianity seriously.
5) There seems to be an attitude that God can't act if the financial
resources aren't there. One campus Christian organization I used to
belong to took as one of the `signs' of a person being `called' to
work with them whether they were able to raise their support.
Fundraising often seems as essential to a ministry as preaching the
gospel or doing whatever the ministry does. I can include in this
even people I respect. I recently received a fund-raising letter from
one organization, in the name of someone I respect, that had all the
gimmicks: words underlined in fake marking pen, a personal note in
fake marking pen saying how urgent it was, and all the rest.
Take by contrast the example of George Mueller, who built several
orphanages in England. He had a guiding principle, scrupulously
adhered to, to NEVER ask for money. In fact, people would ask him
what needs he had, and he would say that the Lord was providing. He
even sent money to Hudson Taylor's work in China. His orphans never
missed a meal, and only once was a meal delayed for 1/2 hour waiting
for money. He said, when trying to decide whether to build another
orphanage, ``If God doesn't need another orphanage, I certainly
don't.''
6) Money is often used as a means of control; people who give money to
an organization expect some voice in how it is run. I think this
occurs even in Christian organizations.
In my mind, the Church ought to be much less institutionalized than it
is now. People should give money to the PEOPLE they are receiving
ministry from and others they wish to support. This giving should be
FREE giving, with no strings attached. Those who are getting money
should never take money with strings attached.
Churches should meet in houses or rented halls. They should not own
property (especially when the property lies unused for most of the
week!). This would eliminate the major need for a regular budget --
the need to pay the bills. Churches that get too big could split if
God doesn't somehow provide a bigger hall. (By the way, God's
providing doesn't rule out people going out and LOOKING for one!)
As far as the individual is concerned, giving should be completely
voluntary. Sure, the need for giving can be mentioned. I should say
it's a lot more convincing if it's not immediately followed by an
offering plate!
The individual should see the money God gives as something God has
given as a means of participating in the kingdom of God. (The bible,
by the way, says we should work so we will have something to share
with those in need!) Each of us should take the initiative in seeing
how we can use that money for God's glory. But it shouldn't be
coerced or brow-beaten out of us. If God is behind something, his
spirit can motivate people to get behind it. If not, I don't want to
be a part of it!
I know this sounds idealistic, but I really think this is one of the
areas where the Church as a whole has really lost sight of its Lord.
-Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com
--
-Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) (04/04/91)
One of my pet peeves related to giving is the criticism often rendered that "You shouldn't give to get" and "You know, God is not some investment program." usually delivered with a self- righteous air. Well, rats!! Especially when you are marginally existing you look to the Lord Jesus as your supply. (Should be all the time !!) When you help others thru the church or directly, you need to expect and believe that your needs will be supplied. Further, if I had $10K to "invest" and I opened an account with our bullish friends the Big Bull Brokers, at some time in the future I could call BBB and say "Sell it all y'all and send me the check." Assuming I had not been a foolish twit at investing, the folks at BBB would send me a check for > or = $10K. Now when I "invest" the $10K in the Lord's work, I can only receive it back again with any increase by Faith. I definitely see NO parallel between the two. I'm certain that the BBB folks would think me addled if I said what I was doing was investing (at least by their definition.) There, I feel a lot better now... Bobby akgua!rjb
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/05/91)
OFM writes (in part): >[...It would be unethical, and I am reasonably >sure illegal, for managers of a company to divert its resources for >religious purposes that they personally consider important. --clh] Didn't Mongomery Ward have a history of giving large portions of the profits to the church? Certainly IBM has been quite active in giving large gifts to education, and other charitable causes. This could be rationalized as public relations I suppose, but why would gifts to a church be any different? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
conan@sizzlean.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (04/06/91)
Our Fearless moderator writes (concerning tithing by a business): > >[There are legal and ethical issues involved with businesses. >But in other cases, I am >reasonably sure that the law (probably in the form of the S.E.C.) >would look very dimly upon the concept of a company tithing. --clh] Actually, my guess is that if a duly elected board of directors of a public corporation voted to donate ten percent (or whatever) of the corporation's profits to a Church or religious charity, the government would probably treat it as any other corporate charitable contribution. (In the eyes of the law, in this case there is should be no difference between public television and organized religion.) Where trouble could arise is if this did not reflect the will of a majority (or even a significant minority) of the stockholders. This could then trigger a civil suit by said stockholders. But this is a little different than what OFM indicated. At least this is how I read the law. Any corporate lawyers out there? Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
kwilson@urbana.mcd.mot.com (Kent Wilson) (04/06/91)
In article <Apr.4.00.52.02.1991.14809@athos.rutgers.edu>, psburns@lims04.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) writes: >Funny you should raise this issue. I am currently reading Larry Burkett's >book entitled *Business by the Book* which is an excellent treatment of the >scriptural aspects of running a business. There is an entire chapter >devoted to the subject of whether a Christian business should tithe. Mr. >Burkett brought out some great points that I really never considered: > 1. Tithing, as described in the Old Testament, really was never part >of the Law. There never was any punishment for failure to tithe. Rather, >tithing sprung from the necessity of supporting the Jewish folks who were >the keepers of the Temple and the administrators of the faith. This burden >of support was taken up by the faithful who realized that what they were >blessed with was theirs only through the hand of God. Although there was >no punishment for failure to tithe, God did say there were consequences. Perhaps I missed the point here, and if so apologies in advance, but this seems to fly in the face of scripture. Is this Burkett's view of Old Testament tithing? I would find this almost hard to believe. Book of Malachi --------------- 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. I would call this curse a punishment, not a consequence. > 2. As far as whether the idea changed during the New Testament times, >consider this: In the NT, God was very explicit whenever He referred to >an Old Testament teaching, and if the teaching was changed from the Old >Testament, He was very explicit to explain the change. Such changes >applied to the Sabbath, divorce, sacrifice, for example. Never did Jesus >mention any change to the issue of tithing. Therefore, one can assume that >tithing is just as applicable today as it was in the Old Testament times. Agreed. > 3. God loves a cheerful giver. I don't believe he wants what we give >him grudgingly. If you're hesistant to give, don't give at all. Tithing >isn't something we can use to push a button with God, and have him dump his >blessings on us If we give out of an obligation or with resentment, > I would venture to guess that God, who sees the motives of our >hearts, will not honor that giving as he would if it were given with a pure >motive and a joyful heart. I disagree here. While you are right that God does love a cheerful giver, I do not believe that He would prefer you to stop giving entirely because you are less than thrilled about it. I believe that if you do give cheerfully God will look more favorably upon it than if you give grudginly. The line of reasoning that unless you are thrilled about giving seems to set up a dangerous excuse for people to not give. > 4. As far as 10%, "tithe" translates to "a tenth". Net or gross? >God's word says to tithe from "first fruits" or, as I see it, from that >which comes to you. I don't feel comfortable with my Holy and Mighty God >standing in line behind the government who's collecting taxes, and behind my >creditors who are collecting their interest (due to my poor $ management, I > confess). I make a lot of money, and I truly consider it a priveledge to >honor the Lord from my finances with my tithe. I love seeing where my >money goes in the ministries at my church. I love knowing that in a small >way, I am helping touch lives for Jesus Christ. > Good for you!! God will honor that. Your reasoning here is right on the money (pardon the pun). Thanks, Kent
c9037544@cc.newcastle.edu.au (David Williams) (04/08/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu>, murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: > Here's a topic we haven't discussed in a while: tithing. > > A couple questions: > 1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an > Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? > 2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that > our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. > Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church > and other Christian organizations? > 3) Do you think Christian businesses should tithe as individuals do? > What about churches and charities tithing part of their income? 1 - The word tithe means 'tenth', and all Christians should tithe. By 'Old Testament concept', I assume you mean part of the Law. This is not so - Abraham, for example, tithed some considerable time before the Law. 2 - The tithe belongs to your local church. The tithe in OT times went to the Levites so as to support them. Similarly, the tithe is to support your church and its ministers. Any giving to other ministries should be above and over this. 3 - Who would a church tithe to? As for businesses and charities, well, I suppose it is up to them. Certainly the principal of tithing is a good one, and it is not just a matter of ceremoniously giving away your money because you have been instructed to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | David Williams | University of Newcastle, Australia | | c9037544@cc.newcastle.edu.au | Department of Computer Science | | c9037544@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au | | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | "The decision of Random Numbers is too important to be left to chance !" | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rb@otter.hpl.hp.com (Richard Brown) (04/09/91)
> In Genesis we read that Abraham paid tithes to the priest Melchizedek > of Salem. So tithing predates the Mosaic Law and thus (IMHO) was not > one of the ceremonial laws fulfilled at the Cross. I think this is absolutely right. Jesus didn't mention tithing much because it was a commonly accepted practice. However, he did speak about money more than anything else. It is not that God required a tenth of our income, but he wanted us to worship him with that which means so much to us.We teach tithing in our church not because we want the money, but because we believe we will be depriving people of God's blessing if we don't teach it. (cf Phil 4). Food for thought: I believe we all tithe. Either we tithe to God, or Satan takes it anyway (car repairs, broken washing machines, unexpected bills)!!. Richard.
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.27.1991.8133@athos.rutgers.edu> murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: >1) Do you think all Christians should tithe 10%, or is that an >Old Testament concept now superceded by Christ? Well, just as faith came before the Law, so did tithing. Both Abram (Gen. 14, to Melchizedek) and Jacob (Gen. something) tithed. Jesus rebuked the pharisees because their legalistic tithing practices (which even dealt with specific spices) got in the way of their charity; however, in the same sentence, he affirmed their tithing practice. There is hardly any mention of tithing in the New Testament, not because it was superseded, but because mention of it was unnecessary. The Christians were giving **all** they had. No I don't think Christians should tithe 10%. Should actually be 19%, if you want to follow the prescription in Leviticus. "But we're not under law." Right. Malachi 3:10 puts it in the realm of the Promises of God. This promise ("deliver all the tithes into the storehouse, so that there may be meat in my house, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven, so that you won't have room to contain it.") was uttered to people who knew that there were actually three tithes that God talked about. The first tithe is: 1/10th of all your property (i.e., sheep, cattle, companies, anything that can make you money) is actually God's property. In other words, he gets all the earnings from that 1/10th. The second and third tithes aren't actually complete tithes: they add up to 1/10th of what's left after God takes the original 1/10th. So here's the math: God gets (0.10 x 1.00) + (0.10 x 0.90) = 0.19 or 19% of what you earn. >2) Some Christians use the Malachi 3:10 verse to say that >our full tithe should go to our "storehouse", the local church. >Do you think it is okay to split a tithe between your church >and other Christian organizations? What do you mean, "use the Mal. 3:10 verse. . ."? I don't like the rhetoric here. The verse says that the full tithe goes to the storehouse, and it means what it says. The storehouse is the place, organization, person, where you get your spiritual food. If you want to give to other Christian organizations, go ahead, but don't rob God by taking it out of the tithes. Do it with what you have left over. >3) Do you think Christian businesses should tithe as individuals do? >What about churches and charities tithing part of their income? Yes on all counts, but now we're getting into stickier territory. The singing group I'm in is currently dealing with the issue of tithing and things aren't so cut-and-dried, because other people want to do other things with the (very small amount of) money we make than tithing, and I can't force anything. I don't want to. But I do think the promise of malachi 3:10 applies to collective groups of people. The whole issue of tithing is: do you trust God where it counts, your wallet? If you can consistently give the 19% (not to mention other offerings like the firstfruits, etc.) even while you are asking yourself, "How am I going to make ends meet?" that is a big demonstration of your trust in the Lord. And he is only pleased by trust/faith. John Warren ". . .they'll stone you when you're riding in your car." Dylan
fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) (04/09/91)
conan@sizzlean.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) writes: >Actually, my guess is that if a duly elected board of directors of a >public corporation voted to donate ten percent (or whatever) of the >corporation's profits to a Church or religious charity, the government >would probably treat it as any other corporate charitable contribution. >At least this is how I read the law. Any corporate lawyers out there? I think there is a general misconception here about charitable donations by a corporation. Since I do quite a bit of business with churches (multi-user church systems), we are often asked to simply donate our goods and write off the cost as a donation. It simply doesn't work that way. Certainly a business may give donations after taxes but they simply come out of the shareholders pockets. Where is the write-off? It's a reduction of profits - nothing else. Donations before taxes need to be legitimate business expenses which the IRS would not look kindly upon. It's not like individual donations that can subsequently be used to reduce the payer's tax liability. I think that's where the confusion comes in. Fred -- W. Fred Rump office: fred.COMPU.COM 26 Warren St. home: fred@icdi10.COMPU.COM Beverly, NJ. 08010 bang: ...{dsinc uunet}!cdin-1!icdi10!fred 609-386-6846 "Freude... Alle Menschen werden Brueder..." - The Ode