stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (04/02/91)
In article <Mar.30.03.03.03.1991.15185@athos.rutgers.edu> alan@syacus.acus.oz.au writes: >True, Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Christians by definition. Hi Alan! By definition? Who's? Ask any of the 4.1 Million JW's throughout the world if they consider themselves to be Christian. Everyone of them will answer with a resounding YES! What does it mean to be a Christian? ------------------------------------ Jesus extended the invitation to be his follower saying: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake [cross] and continually follow me." (Mt. 16:24) Those who are true Christians have full faith that Jesus Christ is God's specially Anointed One and only-begotten Son, the Promised Seed who sacrificed his human life as a ransom, was resurrected and exalted to the right hand of Jehovah, and received authority to subdue his enemies and vindicate Jehovah's name. (Mt. 20:28; Lu 24:46; Joh 3:16; Ga 3:16; Php 2:9-11; Heb 10:12, 13) Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and disciplining mankind (Joh 17:17; 2 Ti 3:16; 2Pe 1:21) True Christians imitate Jesus' example as the Great Teacher and Faithful Witness of Jehovah. (Joh 18:37; Re 1:5; 3:14) "Go... make disciples of people of all the nations" is the Leader's command. (Mt 28:19, 20) In carrying it out Christians 'witness publicly and from house to house,' urging people everywhere to put their hope and confidence in God's Kingdom (Acts 5:42; 20:20, 21; Rev 18:2-4) The main identifying quality by which true Christians are recognized is the outstanding love they have toward one another. "By this," Jesus said, "all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (Joh 13:34, 35; 15:12, 13). >JW's do not >believe that Jesus is the Almighty God. They do not believe in the deity of >Christ (2 John 9). True, we believe that Jesus is the Son of Almighty God(Jehovah). This has been discussed many times in this forum..... >Also, they do not believe that Christ paid their debt in >full at Calvary, thus their belief in a mixture of faith in >"another Jesus" (2 Corr 11:4) and works for salvation. And Charles Taze >Russell certainly came and preached another Jesus back in the late 1800's. What has ever left you with this idea? Did you get this info from Jehovah's Witnesses or someone who writes anti-JW books? Best regards.... Steve Peterson stevep@cadence.com >Alan
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/03/91)
In article <Mar.30.03.03.03.1991.15185@athos.rutgers.edu> alan@syacus.acus.oz.au writes: >True, Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Christians by definition. Mark 9:38-41 38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man who was driving out demons in your name, and we told him to stop, because he doesn't belong to our group." 39 "Do not try to stop him," Jesus told them, "because no one who performs a miracle in my name will be able soon afterward to say evil things about me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 I assure you that anyone who gives you a drink of water because you belong to me will certainly receive his reward. (TEV) Luke 9:49-50 49 John spoke up, "Master, we saw a man driving out demons in your name, and we told him to stop, because he doesn't belong to our group." 50 "Do not try to stop him," Jesus said to him and to the other disciples, "because whoever is not against you is for you." (TEV) How many times on this list have accusations been hurled against other denominations or their beliefs? (They're not *real* Christians.) Now, I don't agree with all the beliefs of a "JW", but I'm not going to say they aren't "Christians." I have a great deal of respect for the JW's. I have spoken a number of times with them at my door and in my home. It's not my style to go door-to-door preaching the good news, and more importantly, I don't have the guts! How many people have been brought to Jesus Christ through the outreach of the JW's? We are called to "make of all disciples". Have we done our part? I don't agree with all the beliefs of the LDS Church, but I'm not going to say they aren't "Christians." How much money have they dedicated to their advertising campaign? They are a witness in the public eye for the values (I believe) we all hold as Christians. Recently, they have begun a commercial advertising the book of Mormon, and I've got to admit it's been a tempting offer. What witness have we been to the world? I don't agree with all the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church, but they are the mother church, and celebrating with Roman Catholics I see things that were missing from my upbringing in the United Methodist Church. (Ex. In the UMC the "passion" of Christ has never been preached to me with the fervor I have heard it preached in an R.C. pulpit.) I don't agree with all the beliefs espoused by my fellow United Methodists, but our church is diverse, and they are my brothers and sisters. It seems that much of our identity as Christians nowadays is based upon those things which we do *not* believe. Isn't it time that we collectively started coming together on what we *do* believe. From the very beginning, the church had fundamental disagreements. (Should Gentiles be welcomed into the fellowship? Must they be required to abide by The Law?) Yet, the apostles worked together to found our great church. Why can't we (with our disagreements) rededicate the church to Christ? An Example: In my denomination, we don't serve communion every Sunday. People are made uneasy if it served "too often". (It's "Too Catholic".) Now, none of the reformers said, "The church should not have Communion every Sunday". In our case, there were far more congregations in the colonies than there were ordained ministers. Although John Wesley would have preferred that communion be served every Sunday, it just wasn't practically possible. Many fellowships served "Agape meals", but Communion was a sacrament, and needed ordained layity. Still, the every Sunday communion is perceived as "Catholic". Once again... Mark 7:6-8 (See also Matthew 15:1-9 and Isaiah 29:13) 6 Jesus answered them, "How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: `These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. 7 It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach man-made rules as though they were my laws!' 8 "You put aside God's command and obey the teachings of men." (TEV) "Love one another, as I have loved you." "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your and all your mind and all your strength". "Love your neighbor as yourself." We stand accused. How do we plead? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (04/03/91)
In article <Apr.2.03.33.27.1991.19736@athos.rutgers.edu>, cadence!stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) writes: ****(alan@syacus wrote the bit below to which Steve replies) |> >Also, they do not believe that Christ paid their debt in |> >full at Calvary, thus their belief in a mixture of faith in |> >"another Jesus" (2 Corr 11:4) and works for salvation. And Charles |> Taze |> >Russell certainly came and preached another Jesus back in the late |> 1800's. |> |> What has ever left you with this idea? Did you get this info from |> Jehovah's |> Witnesses or someone who writes anti-JW books? |> Do you mean "anti-JW PEOPLE" or "anti-JW DOCTRINE" books ??? I personnally have never seen an "anti-JW" book, or an "anti-Mormon", or an "anti-Seventh Day Adventist", or an "anti-Christian Scientist", et hoc genus omne, book. I have only read books that examine the DOCTRINES of the above groups and compare them with the Bible. The conclusion that most authors reach is that the group's doctrines are not based solely on the Bible, but on the teachings of that particular groups prophet. Of these books that condemn doctrines as being not based in scripture, EVERY author has stated clearly that it is the doctrines that are being 'attacked', not those who believe those doctrines. I have noticed (in my interaction with some of the above groups) that SDA's, JW's, etc. Find it hard to distinguish between the doctrines that they believe and their own personal identity. (There have been books written on the psychology of the 'cults' [no disparagement meant in the use of the term 'cult' !] - go look in your local library !!!). That is, any 'attack' on the doctrines of such 'sensitive' people will be interpreted as personal disparagement !!! BTW, (just out of interest) the JW's that I have talked to (here in Wellington) don't like being called 'christian' (they don't follow Christ, they say). Jim. [Actually, it's not that uncommon to see books that attack not only doctrines but the character of leaders of the churches. --clh]
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/04/91)
*Please, don't press 'n' yet!!!* Yesterday, I posted a message crying for Christian Unity. In support I cited Mark 9:38-41 and Luke 9:49-50 (I'll cite them again.) I went home in fear that someone would cite Matthew 12:30 as a counter. It was only this morning that I realized (it was revealed to me? ;-) ) why it is not a contrary verse. First the readings I've already cited... >Mark 9:38-41 > 38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man who was driving out demons >in your name, and we told him to stop, because he doesn't belong to our >group." > 39 "Do not try to stop him," Jesus told them, "because no one who >performs a miracle in my name will be able soon afterward to say evil >things about me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 I >assure you that anyone who gives you a drink of water because you belong >to me will certainly receive his reward. (TEV) > >Luke 9:49-50 > 49 John spoke up, "Master, we saw a man driving out demons in your >name, and we told him to stop, because he doesn't belong to our group." > 50 "Do not try to stop him," Jesus said to him and to the other >disciples, "because whoever is not against you is for you." (TEV) Now, Matthew 12:30-35 30 "Anyone who is not for me is really against me; anyone who does not help me gather is really scattering. 31 For this reason I tell you: people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say; * but whoever says evil things against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven-now or ever. 33 "To have good fruit you must have a healthy tree; if you have a poor tree, you will have bad fruit. A tree is known by the kind of fruit it bears. 34 You snakes-how can you say good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good person brings good things out of his treasure of good things; a bad person brings bad things out of his treasure of bad things. * evil thing they say; or evil thing they say against God. (TEV) At first glance, Jesus seems to contradict himself. "Whoever is not against us is for us." "Whoever is not against you is for you." As opposed to "Anyone who is not for me is really against me." First let me point out that in Matthew he is referring to himself, in Mark and Luke he is referring to (respectively) he and the disciples or just the disciples. (Matthew, the Spirit. Mark and Luke the Church.) In Matthew, Jesus has cast out a demon, and the Pharisees say that he has power to do this because he is in league with Beelzebul. Jesus counters that Beelzebul would not give him such powers, since a country divided against itself will fall apart. (I suspect he'd say the same thing about the church). In any case, he turns against the Pharisees because they are saying things against the workings of the spirit. In Mark and Luke, Jesus tells his disciples not to turn against a non-disciple casting out demons in the name of Jesus. If the man is casting out demons in the name of Jesus, must he not be doing the work of the spirit? (It appears the verses are all talking about not interfering with the work of the spirit.) Recently people have been discussing the unforgivable sin. Jesus says that you can say anything evil about God, or the Son of Man and that can be forgiven, but to say anything against the Spirit cannot be forgiven. When we criticize our brothers and sisters, and claim that they are not "Christians" (even though they are doing the work of the spirit in the name of Jesus) don't we commit that one unforgivable sin!? How are we to know whether a tree is good or bad? By the fruit it bears. If a tree bears good fruit, how can we call it bad? And if a church does good works in the name of Jesus, how can we say that they are not Christian? We should heed John's words of advice: Luke 3:9 The ax is ready to cut down the trees at the roots; every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire." (TEV) It's about time we started looking at our branches brothers and sisters. It's time we started pruning ourselves. What fruit do we bear? What words do we speak? What sort of witness do we bear to the world with all of this infighting and rivalry in the church? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/05/91)
Brothers and Sisters,
Last night, as I lay in bed I reached for my Bible, and opened it.
It opened to Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians. The bible I read
(Good News Bible - Today's English Version) has subject headings, and
the one that fairly lept off the page was "Divisions in the Church".
I Corinthians 1:10-17
10 By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ I appeal to all of you,
my brothers, to agree in what you say, so that there will be no
divisions among you. Be completely united, with only one thought and
one purpose. 11 For some people from Chloe's family have told me quite
plainly, my brothers, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Let me put
it this way: each one of you says something different. One says "I
follow Paul": another, "I follow Apollos": another, "I follow Peter":
and another, "I follow Christ." 13 Christ has been divided* into
groups! Was it Paul who died on the cross for you? Were you baptized
as Paul's disciples?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and
Gaius. 15 No one can say, then that you were baptized as my disciples.
(16 Oh yes, I also baptized Stephanas and his family; but I can't
remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 Christ did not send me to
baptize. He sent me to tell the Good News, and to tell it without using
the language of human wisdom, in order to make sure that Christ's death
on the cross is not robbed of its power.
* Christ has been divided; some manuscripts have Christ cannot be
divided. (TEV)
How would Paul put it today? "One says `I follow Paul': another, `I
follow Luther': another, `I follow Wesley': another, `I follow Calvin':
another, `I follow Peter (the pope)': another, `I follow Christ.'"
We round up into little camps following the teachings of different wise
men! Which ones of us follow Christ!? If you follow the teachings of
Christ, and do good works in his name I will call you "My Brother" or
"My Sister".
On this list, we very wise debate facets of our faith. We produce proof
texts to prove our point, we prove and disprove what can never be proved
or disproved. (When I was a child I learned the phrase, "The Devil can
quote scripture to serve his purposes." It's more than just a pithy
little saying, look at the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness.)
We bicker and bicker, occasionally a non-believer decides to have some
fun. Like a child stirring up an ants nest with a stick, they hurl a
few insults and watch the fun. They call us fools, and we in our wisdom
rush to prove that we are not.
I Corinthians 1:18-25
18 For the message about Christ's death on the cross is nonsense to
those who are being lost; but for us who are being saved it is God's
power. 19 The scripture says,
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and set aside the understanding of the scholars."
20 so then, where does that leave the wise? or the scholars? or the
skillful debaters of this world? God has shown that this world's wisdom
is foolishness!
21 For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by
means of thier own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called "foolish"
message we preach, God decided to save those who believe. 22 Jews want
miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. 23 As for us, we
proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews
and nonsense to the Gentiles; 24 but for those whom God has called,
both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God
and the wisdom of God. 25 For what seems to be God's foolishness is
wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God's weakness is stronger
than human strength. (TEV)
There's Isaiah again! Doesn't he get around!?
Isaiah 29:13-14
13 The Lord said, "These people claim to worship me, but their words
are meaningless, and their hearts are somewhere else. Their religion is
nothing but human rules and traditions, which they have simply
memorized. 14 So I will startle them with one unexpected blow after
another. Those who are wise will turn out to be fools, and all their
cleverness will be useless." (TEV)
A song I learned as a child:
"We are one in The Spirit,
We are one in the Lord.
We are one in The Spirit,
We are one in the Lord.
And we pray that all unity
Will one day be restored.
And they'll know we are Christians
by our love, by our love.
Yes they'll know we are Christians
by our love."
My question: *Will* they know we are Christians? (If you were
arrested, and charged with being a Christian, would there be enough
evidence to convict you?)
Tom Blake
SUNY-Binghamtonbenning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (04/05/91)
In article <Mar.30.03.03.03.1991.15185@athos.rutgers.edu> alan@syacus.acus.oz.au writes: >>True, Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Christians by definition. >> Also, they do not believe that Christ paid their debt in >> full at Calvary, thus their belief is a mixture of faith in >> "another Jesus" (2 Corr 11:4) and works for salvation. >What has ever left you with this idea? Did you get this info from Jehovah's >Witnesses or someone who writes anti-JW books? >Steve Peterson ------------- Steve, I work with three JW who DON'T Believe that there sins have been fully paid for by the death of Jesus. They DO believe that only 144,000 will be fully saved (Rev 14) and the rest of us must win salvation through "good deeds" as defined by their leadership. I have had a few (2 or 3) come to my home and I ask them if I can be fully saved through Messiahs atoning blood? They have told me that HIS atonement is a partial form of redemption, and after believing, we must do "good deeds" to win the rest of the salvation G-d is willing to provide us. I have also found the "anti-JW books to be consistent with the beliefs of my co-workers. I use "The Handbook of todays religions" by Josh McDowell. He is very consistent to describing the beliefs of those in JW. I have just recently received a tape made by some former JW leaders. It is put out by JEREMIAH FILMS, and is called WITNESSES OF JEHOVAH. They put it out to reveal the inner core of the organization. Some very interesting points are made by those who spent time in the "Governing Body." It shows how first, it was predicted that in 1874, Jesus would return to Earth and in 1914, THE WORLD WOULD END. This was published in Zions Watchtower. Then when 1914 passed, the date was changed to 1915, then 1918. Again in 1925 the same prediction was forcast, and again in 1941. The last due date as predicted by the Watchtower Society was 1975. After all these false predictions, the unknowing sheep still follow the false shepard. One of the leaders is Raymond Frans. They also expose the "New World Translation" by talking to those who the Watch Tower publishers quote out of context to validate their bible. These men speak out about the bad renderings in translating hebrew and greek the New World bible has. The tape is just filled with great information. I'm not sure if it is available on the market ( a friend at work make it for me ). B. Benning -----------
crf@tomato.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) (04/05/91)
Continuing the discussion on whether JW's are Christians, I'd like to toss in a quick question to any of the JW's on the net: Do JW's think that the rest of us who call ourselves Christians really are Christians? Why or why not? Grace and peace, Charles Ferenbaugh
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (04/05/91)
[There was a exchange between James Quilty and Steve Peterson about anti-JW books. James says all the anti-JW books he's seen attack doctrine but not JW's themselves. I commented that I have seen the sorts of books Steve was talking about. --clh] Hi James! When considering to become one of JW's in my early 20's, I thought it to be prudent to review every book that I could find that examined the supposed fallacy of JW's doctrine. In reviewing these several dozen books, I found *much* misrepresentation about the doctrine that JW's teach, as well as, personal attacks about certain individuals within the early days of our organization. My comment above was in response to someone stating a very odd idea about JW doctrine. When I visit the local Christian Book store to pick up reference books, I notice the promenant section entitled "Cults". There always seems to be quite a supply of the books that "examine the doctrine of the JW's". I usually refer to these as the "anti-JW" books. I believe that our Moderator has summed it up quite nice(as usual). > BTW, (just out of interest) the JW's that I have talked to (here in >Wellington) don't like being called 'christian' (they don't follow >Christ, they say). > >Jim. Many persons say that we aren't Christians, or say we don't believe in Jesus because we realize that Jesus isn't the #1 Almighty personage in the Universe. Ask any JW if he is a Christian, s/he will answer Yes! Steve Peterson stevep@cadence
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/06/91)
Brothers and Sisters,
Well, now I'm getting E-mail from people trying to explain to me why
JW's are not Christians. (Surprisingly I haven't received any anti-LDS
E-mail yet. I wonder if I'll receive any anti-RC E-mail?)
In essense, this mail boils down to: "their beleifs are not like ours
(mine)" so they are not Christians! What makes a Christian a Christian
bothers and sisters?
To my mind, a Christian is a follower of Christ. They study, and
presumably try to follow the teachings of Christ. They are a disciple.
But the man casting out demons in Mark 9:38 Luke 9:49 wasn't a disciple
was he? He wasn't one of Jesus' followers. But he was casting out
demons in Jesus name!? And Jesus wasn't upset by this!? He told his
disciples not to stop him! That he was on their side since he wasn't
on the other side! (So it appears, that even *my* definition may be
wrong.)
We have a number of fascinating disputes, but what difference do they
make?
1. Saved-Once/Being Saved
Some of us believe that we are saved once, and that is sufficient.
Some of us believe that we are always in the process of being saved.
We both believe that our sins can be forgiven.
None of us believe that a Christian should sin.
All of us believe that all Christians are sinners.
All of us have come to our respective believs through careful study of
the scriptures.
2. Jesus is God/Jesus is a God (Trinity/Nontrinity)
Some of us believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.
(Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer)
Some of us believe that they are separate entities.
All of us believe that all three are holy.
None of us believe that one of these three is the devil.
All of us have come to our respective beliefs through careful study of
the scriptures.
3. Immediate Afterlife/Eventual Afterlife
Some of us believe that we will immediately go to Heaven or Hell.
Some of us believe we will sleep first, the proceed to Heaven or Hell.
Most of us believe that there is a Heaven and a Hell, and that based
upon our lives on Earth we will go to one or the other.
All of us have come to our respective beliefs through careful study of
the scripture.
I can go on, fill in your own favorites...
What positive difference do any of these make?
When we focus on these issues, don't we rob the cross of it's power?
Doesn't our insistance on the teachings of our denomination become
idolatry?
If we call ourselves Christians, we are all brothers and sisters. Why
then do we pick fights? Is this our ministry? To criticize each other
because of our beliefs? Are we so proud of ourselves and our wisdom
that we know the mind of God? Which one of us advised God at the
creation? Which one of us suggested to Jesus the pre-requisites of
salvation?
Does anyone in this group *agree* with me? Or am I just typing to see
characters appear on my screen?
Hear John's cry:
Matthew 3:7-12
7 When John saw many Pharisees and Sadducess coming to him to be
baptized, he said to them, "You snakes-who told you that you could
escape from the punishment God is about to send? 8 Do those things that
will show that you have turned from your sins. 9 And don't think you
can escape punishment by saying that Abraham is your ancestor. I tell
you that God can take these rocks and make descendants for Abraham! 10
The ax is ready to cut down the trees at the roots; every tree that does
not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. 11 I
baptize you with water to show that you have repented, but the one who
comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. He is
much greater than I am; and I am not good enough even to carry his
sandals. 12 He has his winnowing shovel with him to thresh out all the
grain. He will gather his wheat into his barn, but he will burn the
chaff in a fire that never goes out." (TEV)
I don't believe that calling ourselves Christians is any better than
claiming that we are children of Abraham. What sort of fruit grows on
our branches?
Hear Jesus' Warning:
Matthew 12:33-37
33 "To have good fruit you must have a healthy tree; if you have a
poor tree, you will have bad fruit. A tree is known by the kind of
fruit it bears. 34 You snakes-how can you say good things when you are
evil? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good person
brings good things out of his treasure of good things; a bad person
brings bad things out of his treasure of bad things.
36 "You can be sure that on the Judgement Day everyone will have to
give account of every useless word he has ever spoken. 37 Your words
will be used to judge you-to declare you either innocent or guilty."
(TEV)
Are we ready to give account of our words? What will the verdict be?
Tom Blake
SUNY-Binghamton
From John Michael Talbot's albulm _The Regathering_:
There is one faith, one hope and one baptism
One God and Father of all
There is one church, one body, one life in the Spirit
Now given so freely to allJames.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (04/08/91)
In article <Apr.5.03.58.27.1991.9972@athos.rutgers.edu>, cadence!stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) writes: > Many persons say that we aren't Christians, or say we don't believe > in Jesus because we realize that Jesus isn't the #1 Almighty personage > in the Universe. Ask any JW if he is a Christian, s/he will answer Yes! "The answers are never important, it's the questions that are !!!!" - John Mortimer in "Rumpole of the Bailey" Jim.
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.5.03.51.21.1991.9875@athos.rutgers.edu> benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: >In article <Mar.30.03.03.03.1991.15185@athos.rutgers.edu> alan@syacus.acus.oz.au writes: > >>>............Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Christians by definition. > >>> Also, they do not believe that Christ paid their debt in >>> full at Calvary, thus their belief is a mixture of faith in >>> "another Jesus" (2 Corr 11:4) and works for salvation. > >>What has ever left you with this idea? Did you get this info from Jehovah's >>Witnesses or someone who writes anti-JW books? >------------- >Steve, > >I work with three JW who DON'T Believe that there sins have been fully paid >for by the death of Jesus. They DO believe that only 144,000 will be fully >saved (Rev 14) and the rest of us must win salvation through "good deeds" >as defined by their leadership. I have had a few (2 or 3) come to my home >and I ask them if I can be fully saved through Messiahs atoning blood? They >have told me that HIS atonement is a partial form of redemption, and after >believing, we must do "good deeds" to win the rest of the salvation G-d is >willing to provide us. So this turns out to be a discussion of faith vs. works? OK, I am glad that I asked for clarification. What does the Bible say? "Faith w/o works is dead" I, as one of JWs, simply believe the above scripture. Does this mean that Salvation is due to works? No. What does the Bible say? "Salvation is through Faith, not works". I have concluded that Salvation is a free gift. What is Jehovah looking for out of us? Faith in the value of the ransom of his Son Jesus Christ. If I have true faith that will reflect itself in how I live my life. This will most likely improve my "works". If my behaviour in life doesn't improve, what does this show about my faith? It may show that my faith is weak or non-existant. Will any amount of good works gain my salvation? No. >I have just recently received a tape made by some former JW leaders. Similar to listening to disgruntled employees? Or how about listening to Judas Iscariot? He would no doubt give an objective and truthful anaylysis of Jesus Christ. >I'm not sure if it is available on the market ( a friend at work make it >for me ). You might want to consider watching the other side of the story. JW's have just produced a new video entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses - The Organization behind the Name". This is a 55 minute video that shows the inside story of the tremendous Organization behind the worlds widest preaching effort. Contact your local Kingdom Hall and they will arrange to show it to you at no cost.... With love, Steve stevep@cadence.com
jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (04/10/91)
In article <Apr.4.00.53.06.1991.14833@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >In Mark and Luke, Jesus tells his disciples not to turn against a >non-disciple casting out demons in the name of Jesus. If the man is >casting out demons in the name of Jesus, must he not be doing the work >of the spirit? (It appears the verses are all talking about not >interfering with the work of the spirit.) My family watched a video tape of a lady in Korea "laying on hands" and healing the sick ( and apparantly making a ton of money and fame in the process ). My parents are physicians and several small details in the tape kept setting off warning bells in their heads that this lady may not be the miracle healer that she claims to be. There is the possibility that she is using rather sophisticated parlor tricks and psychological manipulation to woo the patient and the crowd into frenzied hallelujia's. But my mom said that at least she is giving temporary relief in the form of hope to the patients and look at all those people in the audience who are amazed into belief and conversion. I countered that maybe for the moment it is nice, but when the adrenaline is used up, the pain and illness will return. And if this lady is a fraud, and if she is discovered, all the people she convinced to become Christians may give up in disillusionment. ^>*<^ jmoon [If you're interested in this sort of thing, I suggest Nolan's book "Healing". Nolan is an M.D. who investigated various kinds of claimed faith healing. It's clear that the people he looked at were frauds, except for one who was probably self-deluded. That's not to say that there are no real faith healings. But a study of this sort is helpful in pointing out how easy it is to be misled (either intentionally or through ignorance), and may help people trying to evaluate claims of this kind. When you look at the long-term results, I'm not inclined to think "temporary relief" is a justification. --clh]