kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) (03/30/91)
On the way to becoming official New Jerseyites, Nancy and I have been visiting the churches in our area. One of them has a practice that we found somewhat uncomfortable. At the front of the sanctuary, there are two tables on either side of the pulpit; when it is time to collect the offering, they set up a big (at least 10 gallons) basket on each table. Two people stand behind the baskets. Everybody walks to the outside aisle by their pew, goes to the front, walks by this basket, tosses in their money (with the person behind the basket, and the entire congregation, watching closely), and returns to their seat down the center aisle. There are no envelopes on the pew racks, which means that there is no discreet way to put something in the basket: not only does your left hand know what your right hand is doing, _everybody's_ left hand knows what your right hand is doing. (At least, the Official Money Watcher does.) We're curious to know if anybody else has ever encountered this practice, or if it is a local innovation. Our guess is that the donations started dropping, and the "front basket" system was instituted to get more cash; if true, we think those priorities are misplaced -- are we overlooking something? We thought it was a bad idea; especially since some people tend to be suspicious every time money is brought up at all. At least, it will make some visitors uncomfortable, and they might not come back (we have not gone back to the church in question, and have no plans to -- and the place is only 200 feet from our house). kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy "New car, caviar Four-star daydream, Think I'll buy me a football team." -- Pink Floyd, "Money" [When I was calling on members of our church, one indicated that in a former church (not Presbyterian), the amount of money given by each member was published. --clh]
mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.30.02.40.11.1991.14634@athos.rutgers.edu> OFM writes:
[When I was calling on members of our church, one indicated that in a
former church (not Presbyterian), the amount of money given by each
member was published. --clh]
Really scary. Every church I've ever been a member has regarded it as
absolutely essential for the amount given by an individual to be kept
as secret as possible. Usually only one person would know. This is
for the good of those who give fairly little as well as those who give
quite a lot. I'm not sure if I would even feel comfortable in a
church where that kind of thing was publicly known.
-mibtblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/02/91)
In article <Mar.30.02.40.11.1991.14634@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: >We're curious to know if anybody else has ever encountered this practice, >or if it is a local innovation. Our guess is that the donations started >dropping, and the "front basket" system was instituted to get more cash; >if true, we think those priorities are misplaced -- are we overlooking >something? A friend recently took a confirmation class to Boston. While there they went to a few different churches. At one of them htye had a practice she found interesting. They had 3 collections: each went to a different cause. As I recall, one went to local operating expenses, one to local missions and one to global missions. (I may be wrong). Two of the collections were made in "the usual way" I.E. the ushers passed through the congregation. The third was made in an "unorthodox" method. The people took their collection *to* the ushers. (I believe this was the local expenses collection.) My friend thought this a good idea, since it made the act of giving more intentional, and active rather than a passive thing. Many United Methodist congregations each year collect pledges from the entire congregation for what they intend to give that year. Even though our congregation doesn't do this, envelope collections are tallied for income tax purposes, (we receive a statement at the end of the year). Every time a collection is taken, the ushers see what is given, (unless it's in an envelope without the quantity on it.) Since I am tremendously absent minded, I tend to forget my envelope. I find that I can fold paper money quite small, hiding all conventional denominational markings. If the usher were looking closely, he may recognize a portion of the architecture on the back, but I'm not too concerned. I suspect that this ploy would also work quite nicely in your situation. (Similarly, if you don't suffer from absent-mindedness, you could bring a standard envelope from home.) My question, how was the rest of the service? Did the congregation welcome you? Did they strike you as sincere? Loving? Christian? It would seem to me a shame to stay away from a "neighborhood church" for a matter that you could address. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (04/04/91)
In article <Mar.30.02.40.11.1991.14634@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: >At the front of the sanctuary, there are two tables on either side of the >pulpit; when it is time to collect the offering, they set up a big (at >least 10 gallons) basket on each table. Two people stand behind the >baskets. Everybody walks to the outside aisle by their pew, goes to the >front, walks by this basket, tosses in their money (with the person behind >the basket, and the entire congregation, watching closely), and returns to >their seat down the center aisle. > >There are no envelopes on the pew racks, which means that there is no >discreet way to put something in the basket: not only does your left hand >know what your right hand is doing, _everybody's_ left hand knows what your >right hand is doing. (At least, the Official Money Watcher does.) > The lack of envelopes sounds a bit fishy to me. Jesus said let your giving be in secret (Matt. 6). However, in Jesus's day, they had a public collection basket, or something, and Jesus actually watched people put money in it. (Sorry, don't have the reference.) He said that the woman who put her two pennies in it gave more than the pharisees who gave a lot more (numerically). I guess it's safe to say that Jesus (i.e., God) has the right to watch. But members of the congregation? I don't know. But I do know this: giving is not just a necessary evil. It is a sacrament, as powerful as the Eucharist. Indeed, in I Cor. 8 or 9, Paul calls it a eucharist (or was that II Cor?). It is not only our responsibility to give; it is our privilege. Why not make it more central to the worship service than it is? (I'm not a minister, so I have nothing to profit, in the earthly sense, by advocating this.) Does this mean that ministers, who should encourage people to give joyfully, won't abuse the money you give? No, but the giving action is between you and God; he knows your attitude. >kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy > >[When I was calling on members of our church, one indicated that in a >former church (not Presbyterian), the amount of money given by each >member was published. --clh] This practice is also repulsive, and against what Jesus said in Matthew 6. John Warren "... Into the narrow lanes I can't stumble or stay put." -- Robert Zimmerman
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (04/08/91)
In article <Mar.30.02.40.11.1991.14634@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: [explains setting in a church where donating is less than secret...] >There are no envelopes on the pew racks, which means that there is no >discreet way to put something in the basket: not only does your left hand >know what your right hand is doing, _everybody's_ left hand knows what your >right hand is doing. (At least, the Official Money Watcher does.) > > >We're curious to know if anybody else has ever encountered this practice, >or if it is a local innovation. Our guess is that the donations started >dropping, and the "front basket" system was instituted to get more cash; >if true, we think those priorities are misplaced -- are we overlooking >something? > >We thought it was a bad idea...... In my early 20s when I was investigating religions and churches, I visited many different churches and saw a variety of collection methods. In the local Catholic Church, they passed the plate and then posted little plaques on the back wall with people's names on them telling just how much they contributed. In one "non-denominal" congregation, they passed a fishnet style bag, which didn't lend itself for putting in change. Within the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, no plate is ever passed. No Tithing, no asking for money. If any member wants to contribute money, they simply slip it into a small box in the back of the Kingdom Hall labeled "Donations". Extremely discreet...... Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep
fasano@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Cathy Fasano) (04/10/91)
In article <Mar.30.02.40.11.1991.14634@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
[definitive proof that Christians are second-to-none in sheer tackiness
when it comes to pleading for money... ]
Which brings up an interesting question: Does anybody know of any studies
(as opposed to anecdotal evidence) which compare various religious
fund-raising styles and plans in various contexts? (I know about the
study that showed that Catholics contribute half as much (as a percentage
of income) than Protestants, but I've never seen any evidence that
Catholic fundraising is really systematically different from Protestant).
Now, my husband and I would react the same way as kilroy and Nancy did
to this church -- be utterly appalled and never come back. But how
common is the reaction? After all, there were lots of people at
that service, and I doubt they were all newcomers. And I've certainly
heard enough appalling stories (admittedly some of these were a bit
embellished, but not all, and not all embellishment) from across
all variety of religious undertakings to suggest that a large number
of people stay with congregations which practice these things -- perhaps
it's just that very few people besides us care that much?
On the other hand, here's an idea: we've got lots of s.r.c. readers
who have the requisite knowledge and experience to collect some
data and "cook the numbers" so that we can "prove" a correlation
between obnoxious fundraising and lower contributions. Ya' know --
How to Lie With Statistics 101. :-) Hey -- here's our chance to
*really* effect a positive change in the Church, folks! :-)
Just a thought... :-)
cathy :-)
--
Cathy Fasano fasano@unix.cis.pitt.edu cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu
"The Church and the World are jammed to the rafters these days with people
willing to get involved, get their hands dirty, take risks, make sacrifices,
hurl themselves at spears, lead the advance, inspire, illuminate, encourage,
organize and manage great affairs. I find most such folks insufferable,
even if they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Where are the people
willing to sit on the sidelines and find fault?" -- Michael O. Garvey
--
Cathy Fasano, aka: Cathy Johnston, cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu,
fasano@unix.cis.pitt.edu
"If yer gonna skate on thin ice, ya' might as well dance."
[I can suggest a couple of places to start: In "The Catholic Myth"
(the title is rather misleading) Andrew Greeley quotes some data on
giving patterns for Catholics, and some of his data compares it with
Protestants. You could start with his book and trace the references.
He is part of a project involved in collecting statistical data about
religion. Also, the Lily Endowment has been sponsoring empirical
studies about congregational life, and almost certainly some of them
have data of this kind. I can't put my hands on any of their material
at the moment. --clh]divine@uunet.uu.net (Kevin Divine) (04/14/91)
Personnally, I think that the idea of "shaming" people into giving more is rude, crude, and socially unrefined. What I give to my church is between me and God, and i do not think that God is going to tell. Back at my home church, my father is the financial secretary-- meaning that he counts all money coming into the church, from whom (for tax purposes only), and to what special project the money may be designated for (building fund, certain missionaries, memorials etc.) meaning that he also has access to people's giving records, but ONLY him. The pastor doesn't even get to see these. Dad keeps these files on two Lotus spreadsheets that he keeps under lock and barrel-- my sisters and I are not evenallowed in the room when he is working on them. Really, I think that advertis- ing to the entire world the giving records of each congregation member is not a situation that i would want to be in. Subject line tells all...... kevin robert divine divine@plains.NoDak.edu [Our pastor has also requested not to be told. He doesn't want knowledge of who the big givers are to unconsciously bias the way he deals with people. --clh]