[soc.religion.christian] Passover for Christians

cms@gatech.edu (03/19/91)

 I have a book called "The Passover Meal:  a ritual for Christian 
homes" by Arleen Hynes.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  For the Seder, at 
Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four 
questions, etc.  We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated 
Passover with his disciples.

-- 
                                   Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
	        	 _///_ //  SPAWN OF A JEWISH       _///_ //
      _///_ //         <`)=  _<<     CARPENTER   _///_ //<`)=  _<<
    <`)=  _<<	 _///_ // \\\  \\   \\ _\\\_   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
       \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<             >IXOYE=('>   \\\  \\
                  \\\  \\_///_ //   //  ///   _///_ //    _///_ //
emory!dragon!cms       <`)=  _<<   _///_ // <`)=  _<<   <`)=  _<<
                          \\\  \\<`)=  _<<     \\\  \\     \\\  \\
GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia

tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/20/91)

In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>
> I have a book called "The Passover Meal:  a ritual for Christian 
>homes" by Arleen Hynes.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
>Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  For the Seder, at 
>Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four 
>questions, etc.  We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated 
>Passover with his disciples.
>
>-- 
>                                   Sincerely,
>Cindy Smith

Cindy,

    In our parish we have celebrated what I refer to as a Pseudo-Seder
on Maundy Thursday fairly consistantly for the last decade or so.  (In
this time we have had 4 pastors, the latest has termed our gathering a
"New Testament Dinner" she posts a list of appropriate dishes, and
members of the congregation sign up to bring various items.

    Following dinner, we celebrate communion around the tables.  This
year at my suggestion we will also be viewing a rather good video
entitled "In Rememberance" as I recall.  I was first introduced to this
video on an "Emaus Walk", and reccomend it to anyone out there
responsible for setting program in the church.  It is appropriate for
youth on up through adults, and gives an introduction to the Last
Supper, the rituals and the participants.

    The first time we celebrated a Seder, our pastor at that time got a
copy of the ritual as it would be celebrated by a Jewish fellowship.  We
did not perform the entire ritual, but he read us the part to remind
Israel of all the Lord had done for them, then continued with
appropriate reminders of the New Testament.  I found this to be quite a
meaningful ceremony.


						Tom Blake
						SUNY-Binghamton

levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) (03/22/91)

In article <Mar.20.02.51.19.1991.8907@athos.rutgers.edu>
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) writes:

>    In our parish we have celebrated what I refer to as a Pseudo-Seder
> on Maundy Thursday fairly consistantly for the last decade or so.  (In
> this time we have had 4 pastors, the latest has termed our gathering a
> "New Testament Dinner" ...
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  IMHO, it is a wise idea to call your derived-from-the-Jewish-Passover
ceremony/gathering something other than a 'Seder' or 'pseudo-Seder' or
anything related to the terms 'Passover' or 'Pesach.'  There's enough
bad feelings on both sides already, and by simply renaming the
ceremony, you can bring peace and avoid confusion and ill will.

  As an example of the risk of re-casting the term 'Passover,'
consider the case of the local newspaper editor in a large southern
New Jersey suburban township who around 1983 innocently ran a feature
on Easter and another on Passover.  The (non-Jewish) editor got the Easter
column from a local church and her Passover column from a group
calling itself "Friends of Israel," which also turned out to be
Christian, despite its name.  When the column appeared (including
phrases on the order of 'the 3 matzos symbolize the Trinity, and the
wine, the blood of ...'), the editor had no idea why hundreds of
irate Jewish subscribers vociferously expressed their displeasure in
no uncertain terms.  The editor apologized profusely in the next
issue, but it was years before the editor and paper re-earned respect
from the Jewish community of the township.

  Let that be a lesson for those who demand the right to redefine
well-defined religious observances and tenets in the context of other
religions without selecting new and unique terms to describe these
modified practices.  If you'll pardon the expression, friendly forces
such as the above editor may end up getting caught in the crossfire.

  Thank you for your consideration,
 
  Rob

-- 
     Robert A. Levene             \ I am the sole legitimate representative
       "/  //  / /"                \ and policy maker for my race, culture,
 Bitnet:     RXL1@APLVM.BITNET      \ country, religion, political party, 
 Internet: levene@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu \ employer and extended family. So there.

math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (03/22/91)

In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu>, emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>  I have a book called "The Passover Meal:  a ritual for Christian 
> homes" by Arleen Hynes.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
> Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
> Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  For the Seder, at 
> Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four 
> questions, etc.  We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated 
> Passover with his disciples.

I participated in a Christian Seder dinner at Pigrim Lutheran Church in 
Minneapolis, about two years back.  For some reason it was not scheduled
anytime close to passover or Easter, (an exercise of Christian freedom,
I guess).  We celebrated the Lord's Supper as part of the meal, reasoning
that the first 'last supper' was a passover meal.  It was interesting and
educational, but there is also room for confusion in this practice.  I base
this on my experience from this one dinner.  A passover dinner, by God's
command, was for the whole family.  Yet the apostle Paul intructs us that
'A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the
cup', (1 Cor 11:28). This clearly indicates that taking the Lord's supper is
a serious matter, which requires maturity and self-examination.  Those who
take the sacrament should at the very least understand what the sacrament is
and what it means -- 1 Cor 11:29.  Most churches seek to ensure this by
requiring 'confirmation' before admitting someone to the Lord's supper.
We don't just casually give it to our children.  I would guess that the 
children at a Jewish passover would be permitted to drink some wine and
eat some Matzoh bread -- though I presume the wine would not be given
casually.

Well, at this passover we had about twelve tables, and I was the head of one
table.  There was a young man at the table who was to be confirmed somewhat
later.  I was concerned about how to handle the situation, so I asked the
pastor.  He advised the young man, 'just drink grape juice instead' or words
to that effect.  It really didn't seem to address the problem.  I think
the pastor spoke somewhat hastily, being questioned on the spot.  To this 
day I think that young man had his first communion at that Seder dinner,
and not at his confirmation.  I would hate for him to be confused about
the matter, and I certainly hope he is not.  I don't think it should weigh
on his conscience, but it does weigh somewhat on mine.

This brings to mind an interesting contrast between the Passover and the Lord's
Supper.  The Passover is a real meal; it started as a 'getting away' meal for
the Israelites in Egypt.  It was supposed to provide real material nutrition
for the participants.   The Lord's Supper began as a passover meal, or as 
the end of one, yet was subsequently celebrated more frequently than Passover
(Acts 2:42-47 seems to refer to 'breaking of bread' as communion), and it
was subsequently made clear that the sacrament was not to be a source of
physical nutrition, but of spiritual.  "If anyone is hungry, he should eat
at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgement."
1 Cor 11:34.

A young man at a Seder dinner needs food and drink.  True, the Lord's Supper
is just part of the dinner, in our case, at the end of the dinner.  He can
eat and drink whatever everyone else does outside of the sacrament.  But it
takes a quick mind and a well informed conscience to know that he should stop
eating and drinking when we come to the Lord's Supper.  In addition, if the
bread and wine/grape juice  is sitting before him, and he starts taking the
sacrament, it would be disruptive for the head of the table to tell him to
stop.

These are (most of) my thoughts concerning the 'Christian Seder'.

David H. Wagner
a confessional Lutheran
		"A Lamb goes uncomplaining forth,
		The guilt of all men bearing;
		And laden with the sins of earth,
		None else the burden sharing!
		Goes patient on, grows weak and faint,
		To slaughter led without complaint,
		That spotless life to offer;
		Bears shame, and stripes, and wounds and death,
		Anguish and mockery, and saith,
		"Willing all this I suffer."
		--'A Lamb Goes Uncomplaining Forth' v.1
		--(Ein Laemlein geht)
		--Paul Gerhardt, 1648
		--from 'The Lutheran Hymnal' #142.

My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by
The University of Houston.

[Yes, I've always wondered about things like seders and agapes which
aren't quite communion but look like it.  They do present interesting
issues.  I've seen an "agape" used in ecumenical settings among groups
that do not have have intercommunion.  I should note that the decision
about when to admit people to communion may be somewhat more varied
than you imply.  I am fairly sure that Catholics and Episcopaleans
allow communion before confirmation.  PC(USA) has "commissioning"
rather than "confirmation", and we also allow communion (at parents'
discretion) before that.  In all cases responsible people are supposed
to make sure that the child does understand something of the
significane of the act.  I believe some Eastern groups allow communion
of infants.  --clh]

dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (03/22/91)

In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu>, emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
 
>  I have a book called "The Passover Meal:  a ritual for Christian 
> homes" by Arleen Hynes.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
> Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
> Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  For the Seder, at 
> Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four 
> questions, etc.  We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated 
> Passover with his disciples.

In our parish (Catholic), there is a Passover Seder Meal which is
organized by a parishioner who is a convert from Judaism. I've
never attended, but I would guess that it follows the traditions
she was raised in.

-dh

Jeremy.Gibbons@prg.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Gibbons) (03/22/91)

Cindy Smith writes:

> I have a book called "The Passover Meal:  a ritual for Christian 
> homes" by Arleen Hynes.  

Cindy, could you post a ref for this book (publisher etc), please?

> I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the Jewish Passover
> according to this Christian method?  [...] We try to celebrate in the same
> way Jesus celebrated Passover with his disciples.

My fellowship group will be having a Passover meal next week (Tuesday
26th). There has been some debate about how `accurate' we should be; the
consensus is that we will have the four questions, the readings (in
English!) etc, but Christian songs and not-necessarily-kosher food.

Jeremy

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
|  Jeremy Gibbons (jg@uk.ac.oxford.prg)   Funky Monkey Multimedia Corp  |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

cms@gatech.edu (03/25/91)

 Several people have asked me about the book I mentioned in an earlier 
posting.  Here it is:

The Passover Meal:  A Ritual for Christian Homes by Arlene Hynes

Paulist Press, New York.  Copyright 1972 by the Missionary Society of 
St. Paul the Apostle in the State of New York.

Library of Congress Catalog Card Number:  76-187207

Published by Paulist Press
997 Macarthur Boulevard
Mahwah, N.J.   07430

 For what it's worth, I purchased this book at a chain called 
"Cokesbury."  It's a small book, a paperback, and costs $2.95.

-- 
                                   Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
	        	 _///_ //  SPAWN OF A JEWISH       _///_ //
      _///_ //         <`)=  _<<     CARPENTER   _///_ //<`)=  _<<
    <`)=  _<<	 _///_ // \\\  \\   \\ _\\\_   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
       \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<             >IXOYE=('>   \\\  \\
                  \\\  \\_///_ //   //  ///   _///_ //    _///_ //
emory!dragon!cms       <`)=  _<<   _///_ // <`)=  _<<   <`)=  _<<
                          \\\  \\<`)=  _<<     \\\  \\     \\\  \\
GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia

tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/27/91)

[Cindy Smith mentioned that she got a book at Cokesbury.  --clh]

For those of you without a Cokesbury in town, you can order toll free
1-800-672-1789.  (I deal with Cokesbury frequently.   ;-)   )

						Tom Blake
						SUNY-Binghamton

[Cokesbury is the Methodist Publishing House.  I believe they also
acquired Westminster Press, the publishing house of the United
Presbyterian Church.  It's possible that the PC(USA) has its own
publishing house again after the merger with the southern church.
Fortress (Lutheran) runs a similar set of stores, and I'm sure 
other publishing houses do as well.

There are a number of national Christian bookstores that will be happy
to deal with you over the phone.  At some point it might be worth
making an attempt to collection information about them.

--clh]

fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) (04/01/91)

In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>
>.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
>Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  

Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA).  About 80 people turned
out this past Monday (day after Palm Sunday, for the net.time.warp).
Each family brought a pot-luck vegetable dish, and the parish staff
cooked lamb and prepared the symbolic foods.

Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would
have enacted with his disciples.

-- 
-- 
Kathy E.F.Daly -- - -- "A bad .sig file is better than no .sig file at all."
Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies (go figure...)
Land Line by day:  (408)970-4263 

tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (04/02/91)

In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes:
>In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>>
>>.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
>>Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
>>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  
>
>Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA).  ...
>
>Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would
>have enacted with his disciples.

Then why bother?

I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would 
institute this sort of tradition in their churches?  It seems to me that
both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the
Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New
Covenant (represented by the Eucharist).  The Passover was a type of the 
ultimate work of God in delivering His people from the bondage of sin. 
When the antitype appeared, the type was no longer necessary.  In fact, the
type is, by definition, imperfect.  There is beauty in the Eucharist; a beauty
not found in the Passover.

Jesus purpose in establishing His church was to universalize the truth of
God's revelation in a way that was impossible to do under the parochial
Jewish system of religion.  Judaism was perfect, but only to a point. 
Following the death and resurrection of Christ something superior was brought
into existence.  That's where the Church comes in.

Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in
them?  Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the
imperfection of the Old Covenant?  Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental
custom?


-- 
Tom Albrecht

billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/04/91)

In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes:
>>In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>
>I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would 
>institute this sort of tradition in their churches?  It seems to me that
>both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the
>Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New
>Covenant (represented by the Eucharist).  The Passover was a type of the 
>
>Tom Albrecht

In the church I attend (Church of the  Nazarene), we have had passover
Seders, administered by "Messianic Jews" who were members of our
congregation.  The point is not to celebrate a Seder as a requirement of
the Law, but rather:

1) To remember the great work that God did in freeing the children of
Israel.  The feasts/hoidays of the OT have been/will be fullfilled in
Messiah.  Why should one not celebrate BOTH the OT and NT "versions"?
Do not BOTH show us the glory and power of God, that He alone is true
to his Holy Word?  That He keeps his promises?

2) To recognize how these events are a "type" of Christ (as the Children
of Israel were freed, so shall all men be freed by Messiah).

3) To remmember that God made promises to Israel regarding the fate of
the Jewish people.  Just because the Jews have rejected Jesus as the
Messiah does not mean that God will turn from them.  God's promises were
unconditional and are still in force.  Remmember, Paul said that the
gentile believers are as a wild olive branch grafted into a tame olive
tree - Israel.  Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the
promises.  The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has
caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000
years.  "To the Jew _first_ and the gentile also."

4) The Matzoh can be seen as a type of Christ.  I don't recall all the
details (one of our Messianic breatheren enumerated them at one of our
"seders" several years ago):
 
a) The Matzoh is singed (burnt) just as Jesus was scourged.
b) The Matzoh is pierced with holes just as Jesus was pierced with a
spear.
c) The Matzoh is broken just as Jesus's body was broken.

If I can get the details from Gary I'll post the list (if there is
interest).  For these very same reasons, my church uses Matzoh at our
communion services.  After all, the Last Supper was a Passover Seder
among 13 Jews, do you really think they used a loaf of white bread???
It was more likely Matzoh than anything else.


Shalom Yeshua 

Bill Gripp 

levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) (04/05/91)

In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu>
tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

>> I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would 
>> institute this sort of tradition in their churches?  It seems to me that
>> both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the
>> Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New
>> Covenant (represented by the Eucharist).  The Passover was a type of the 


In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu>
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) replies:

>  ...  Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the
> promises.  The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has
> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000
> years.

  I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Bill here.  Once
Christianity established a distinct identity from Judaism, Jews no
longer cared about the Christian theology, and have had very little
to say on the subject, let alone "animosity."  That's why Tom's
attitude is commendable in my view, since I couldn't care less what
you think of my Covenant, as long as you don't bother me.

  The animosity Bill describes stems from 2000 years of (1) blaming
Jews for deicide (2) assuming that Jews are somehow devils {see St.
John Chrysostom's and Martin Luther's writings; references available
on request} and (3) various bizarre blood libels and ritual murder
accusations, such as "Hugh of Lincoln" all of which were used to
justify large-scale murdering of Jews, i.e. the Crusades.

  In the past few decades, many positive steps have been taken to
eliminate the deicide and blood libels from mainstream belief, and
that's a Good Thing, and holds the most promise for improving
inter-religious relations to a stage of mutual respect.

  However, the attitude that attempts to redefine Judaism to include
Christianity through "Messianic Jews" produces precisely the opposite
effect, and *does* cause animosity, especially among knowledgeable
Jews, who view it as an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, as
is clear when Bill notes that they hold memberships in a "Church
of the Nazarene."  Talk about passing the duck test...

  Pretending or insisting that "Messianic Jews" and "Passover for
Christians" will improve relations does not make it so, despite
your good intentions.

  Thank you for your consideration.

- Rob

-- 
     Robert A. Levene             \ I am the sole legitimate representative
       "/  //  / /"                \ and policy maker for my race, culture,
 Bitnet:     RXL1@APLVM.BITNET      \ country, religion, political party, 
 Internet: levene@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu \ employer and extended family. So there.

fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) (04/06/91)

In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Daly) writes:
>>
>>Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would
>>have enacted with his disciples.
>
>Then why bother?
>
>I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would 
>institute this sort of tradition in their churches? 
>. . .
>Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in
>them?  Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the
>imperfection of the Old Covenant?  Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental
>custom?
>-- 
>Tom Albrecht

Admittedly, I am new to the Catholic church and may not understand why
my parish does what it does.  As I recall, there was no explanation of
how to approach the meal.  I *think* it was done as a reminder of the
roots of both our faith (as a delivered people) and our Eucharist (as a
holy meal).  The parish has been doing this for only ten years, and
judging by the small turn-out, it does not hold much meaning for many
people.  It felt more like a community social event than anything else.

I would have *preferred* a re-enactment of The Last Supper, and would
have thought of it as theatre.  Is a procession at Easter or Stations
of the Cross anything more than drama? (I mean that on the surface; an
individual can make anything into a religious experience.)

I believe Jesus did not pick bread and wine out of thin air, but was
building on something that already had meaning, and then *changed* those
meanings.  He said "Take THIS cup", not "Take a cup of wine..." like a recipe.
I would have found it insightful to experience the break with tradition
that occured at the "Last Passover/First Eucharist" from the eyes of
the participants, and a re-enactment is a good vehicle.

Next year, I'll give it a miss.

-- 
Kathy E.F.Daly -- - -- "A bad .sig file is better than no .sig file at all."
(technically) Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies
 . . and neither one is liable nor responsible for anything I say or do.
daly%ddtisvr@uunet.uu.net -or- fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp -or- (408)970-4263

cms@dragon.uucp (04/06/91)

In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu>, tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
> In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes:
>>In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
>>>
>>>.  At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on 
>>>Maundy Thursday.  I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the 
>>>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method?  
>>
>>Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA).  ...
>>
>>Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would
>>have enacted with his disciples.
> 
> Then why bother?
> 
> I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would 
> institute this sort of tradition in their churches?  It seems to me that
> both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the
> Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New
> Covenant (represented by the Eucharist).  The Passover was a type of the 
> ultimate work of God in delivering His people from the bondage of sin. 
> When the antitype appeared, the type was no longer necessary.  In fact, the
> type is, by definition, imperfect.  There is beauty in the Eucharist; a beauty
> not found in the Passover.

 In the Passover meal, each participant is invited to partake of three 
cups of wine.  The first cup is the Cup of Sanctification when the 
Leader recalls the story of the Exodus.  After much of the ceremony, 
we come to the second cup of wine, the Cup of Redemption in which we 
recall the promise of liberation.  Then the meal is served.  For the 
Liturgy for Maundy Thursday, the priest recalls the institution of the 
Sacrament of His Body and Blood.  Then we read the Gospel and pray the 
prayers of intercession.  Finally comes the third cup of wine, the Cup 
of Thanksgiving.  After the prayers of thanksgiving, the people 
receive the Eucharist.  In other words, the Eucharist _is_ the third 
Cup of Wine, the Cup of Thanksgiving.  This is the purpose of the 
meal:  To remember the events up to and including the Eucharist, 
incorporating the whole life of Christ, his life and death and 
resurrection, under the species of bread and wine.  Rather than 
replacing Passover, Christianity fulfills all of its promises.  
Christianity is not divided into Jewish and Christian, rather 
Christian _is_ Jewish and Christian.

> Jesus purpose in establishing His church was to universalize the truth of
> God's revelation in a way that was impossible to do under the parochial
> Jewish system of religion.  Judaism was perfect, but only to a point. 
> Following the death and resurrection of Christ something superior was brought
> into existence.  That's where the Church comes in.
> 
> Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in
> them?  Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the
> imperfection of the Old Covenant?  Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental
> custom?

 As noted, it is a central custom.  Generally, we celebrate the most 
important aspects of it every day (or every Sunday).  Once per year we 
recall the full story so as not to forget where we came from nor where 
we are going.

> Tom Albrecht

-- 
                                   Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
	        	 _///_ //  SPAWN OF A JEWISH       _///_ //
      _///_ //         <`)=  _<<     CARPENTER   _///_ //<`)=  _<<
    <`)=  _<<	 _///_ // \\\  \\   \\ _\\\_   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
       \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<             >IXOYE=('>   \\\  \\
                  \\\  \\_///_ //   //  ///   _///_ //    _///_ //
emory!dragon!cms       <`)=  _<<   _///_ // <`)=  _<<   <`)=  _<<
                          \\\  \\<`)=  _<<     \\\  \\     \\\  \\
GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia

ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (04/06/91)

In response to the questions about celebrating the Jewish Passover - Is it
just symbolic?  Could there be some "religious problems" with it?

I'm glad that this issue has been raised.  It has been bugging me since
Maudy Thursday.

This past Maudy Thursday, I went to a bi-weekly regular meeting of a campus
Christian group.  I was surprised to find a Passover meal set a every place.
There were booklets on the table, but I did not pay any attention to them
at first.  Our speaker got up and discussed the Passover meal, and then told
us that our special guest would be leading us in the Passover meal.  Then, he
made a bid deal out of telling us that the "leader" is Jewish.  

I was rather upset, and wondered how a Christian group could condone having
a Jew lead us in a religious-related event, espcially on Maudy Thursday,
when we gather to honor Jesus.  After all, Jews don't believe in Jesus, 
except for Messianic Jews, who are actually Christians (welcome to the family).

So, our guest speaker told us to pick up the booklets on the table, and to
follow him in recitative readings.  The readings were a combination of
Old Testament scripture and words addressed to God.  Almost everyone 
around me was participating, but I stopped on the first page because the
stuff sounded really weird to me - it did not sound like church literature
and was deviod of praising Jesus.  I looked through the booklet, and found
on the cover that it was written by a local rabbi!

I felt nausiated.  I was participating in another religion's ceremony.  I might
as well be yelling "praise Mohammed."  I could not stand it.  I left the
room.  The minister, who was sitting on the side followed me out and asked
me why I was leaving.  I told him as explained above.  He told me that I
"just didn't understand what they were doing" and that they "were not 
having a religious cermony."  

So, I asked "what  then do you call it when there are scripture readings
and words addressed to God?"  He repeated the same, accused me of not believing
in the Trinity, and more or less said "It's your problem and not ours."
He said that it was a "learning experience" and that he would even be 
willing to participate in a Moslem ceremony.

He told me that this is part of my "spiritual history" because my spiritual
ancestors are Jews.  I told him that Abraham is my spiritual ancestor and
that if Abraham were here today, he would be worshipping Jesus.  On the
other hand, the speaker and the booklet writer do not worship Jesus, therefore
they are not practicing what my spiritual ancestors practiced.

I was upset and shocked and have not gone to any meetings since.  

That afternoon, I went home and baked some unleavened bread and served it
with browned fruit and ate it with the "fruit of the vine."
  We ate in remebrance of the Last Supper, and in remeber-
ance of Israel's freedom the Egyptians.  My conscious felt fine.  

In response to the original question -  I am certianly no clergy or scholar,
but my conscionce tells me that eating a Passover meal is either right or
wrong depending on how you do it.  For me, the meal at home was sort of
Last Supper/Passover meal.  It was a meal eaten in rememberance of Jesus
Christ and the sacrifice that He made after years of persecution.  On the
other hand, the meal at school seemed totally deviod of Christ.

tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/09/91)

In article <Apr.6.01.28.13.1991.3367@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes:
>I believe Jesus did not pick bread and wine out of thin air, but was
>building on something that already had meaning, and then *changed* those
>meanings.  He said "Take THIS cup", not "Take a cup of wine..." like a recipe.
>I would have found it insightful to experience the break with tradition
>that occured at the "Last Passover/First Eucharist" from the eyes of
>the participants, and a re-enactment is a good vehicle.

Kathy,

    Check out the movie "In Rememberance".  It's about 45 minutes long,
and does a good job (IMHO) of describing/portraying the rituals, Jesus'
alterations of them, and what might have been the Apostles' reactions to
these changes, and the Jesus they knew.

    I don't know what facilities you have available to you.  In my case
I was able to borrow the video from a library maintained by our
conference (roughly analagous to your Diocese).


					Tom Blake
					SUNY-Binghamton

billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/09/91)

In article <Apr.5.03.23.15.1991.9667@athos.rutgers.edu> levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>
>In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu>
>billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) replies:
>
>>  ...  Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the
>> promises.  The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has
>> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000
>> years.
>
>  I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Bill here.  Once
>Christianity established a distinct identity from Judaism, Jews no
>longer cared about the Christian theology, and have had very little
>to say on the subject, let alone "animosity."  That's why Tom's
>attitude is commendable in my view, since I couldn't care less what
>you think of my Covenant, as long as you don't bother me.

Perhaps you need to read "between the lines" to understand how I meant
this.  I did not mean that Jews were sitting there watching Christian
doctrine saying "Hey, these goyem (gentiles) are trying to steal our
promises from God."  Rather, Christians have gotten too egotistical
saying "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN".

>>   The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has
>> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000
>> years.  It has led to the crusades, pogroms, etc.

Perhaps this version would have been more understandable.

There are Christians (those I consider true Christians) and "Christians"
(those who you would probably consider Christain, a much looser and
broader definition).  Most of what has been done to the Jews in the name
of Christ has been done by "Christians".  The attitude of "who is
interested in that Jew stuff" as espoused by many is again an attitude
of some "Christians".  Many(most?) Christians (lack of "") have an
interest in Judaism because we recognize it as an integral part of our
faith.  Jesus quoted/refered to many parts of the Torah and Tenach (sp?).
The Christian Testament says it is for the Jew FIRST and the Gentile also.
Christian doctrine is that Christ fullfilled Jewish Testament Prophesies,
Covenants, Festivals, etc.  I do not expect you to necessarily accept
these interpretations, nor do I expect you to have them forced down your
throat, but in this light I do expect you to understand my interest 
(even if you do see it as misguided, incorrect, etc.).


>  The animosity Bill describes stems from 2000 years of (1) blaming
>Jews for deicide (2) assuming that Jews are somehow devils {see St.
>John Chrysostom's and Martin Luther's writings; references available
>on request} and (3) various bizarre blood libels and ritual murder
>accusations, such as "Hugh of Lincoln" all of which were used to
>justify large-scale murdering of Jews, i.e. the Crusades.

Exactly, based upon the attitute that "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN".
Perhaps if I had chosen my words more carefully you would have
understood that I was making exactly the same point.


>  In the past few decades, many positive steps have been taken to
>eliminate the deicide and blood libels from mainstream belief, and
>that's a Good Thing, and holds the most promise for improving
>inter-religious relations to a stage of mutual respect.
>
>  However, the attitude that attempts to redefine Judaism to include
>Christianity through "Messianic Jews" produces precisely the opposite
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is what they call themselves.  If you have an issue with that
label that is best taken up with them.  BTW, they have since left our
church and have started their own "Messianic" Congregation, Beth Israel
with their own "Messianic Rabbi/Pastor".  No flames on this please, this
is how they refer to these things themselves.


>effect, and *does* cause animosity, especially among knowledgeable
>Jews, who view it as an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, as
>is clear when Bill notes that they hold memberships in a "Church
>of the Nazarene."  Talk about passing the duck test...
>
>  Pretending or insisting that "Messianic Jews" and "Passover for
>Christians" will improve relations does not make it so, despite
>your good intentions.


>     Robert A. Levene          

Bill Gripp 

credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (04/09/91)

In article <Apr.6.01.34.20.1991.3470@athos.rutgers.edu> ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes:

>This past Maudy Thursday, I went to a bi-weekly regular meeting of a campus
>Christian group.  I was surprised to find a Passover meal set a every place.
>I was rather upset, and wondered how a Christian group could condone having
>a Jew lead us in a religious-related event, espcially on Maudy Thursday,
>when we gather to honor Jesus.  After all, Jews don't believe in Jesus, 
>except for Messianic Jews, who are actually Christians (welcome to the family).
>Almost everyone 
>around me was participating, but I stopped on the first page because the
>stuff sounded really weird to me - it did not sound like church literature
>and was deviod of praising Jesus.  
>I felt nausiated.  I was participating in another religion's ceremony.  I might
>as well be yelling "praise Mohammed."  I could not stand it.  I left the
>room.

In my view you are quite right to leave a religious ceremony if
it upsets your conscience -- or, within reasonable limits, your
taste.  (There is something to be said for forcing yourself to
sit through an event that makes you uncomfortable, for the sake of
learning something.  On the other hand, there is something to be
said for leaving if they're playing Bach and you prefer guitars,
or vice versa.)

However, again in my view, you are wrong in thinking that a seder
is contrary to Christianity, and especially wrong in equating it
with praise of Muhammad.  Muhammad was a human being -- to Muslims
he rates as a prophet, to Christians he rates as a fraud, but to
neither group does he equate to God.

Jewish prayer, on the other hand, including the prayers at the
seder, is addressed exclusively to Almighty God.  Unless you can
find a prayer you disagree with (they're praying for rain and you
want sunshine, or something), I do not see why you should object,
or indeed why you should wish not to participate.

Now it is true that the Jewish concept of God corresponds more
closely to what a Christian would call "God the Father" than to
all three persons of the Trinity.  Fine.  Do you have any objection
to praying, for an hour or to, exclusively to God the Father?
There are plenty of Christians -- not me, by the way -- who see
nothing wrong with addressing virtually all their prayers to
God the Son!  

You may think that over an extended period of your spiritual life,
you would want to devote a balance of attention to the Father, the
Son and the Holy Spirit.  Fair enough, but I do not think that's
an argument against using Jewish-written prayers for one evening
to address God the Father.

And I think you ought to think carefully about whether you have
insulted both Jews and some other Christians (I won't say, also
insulted God!) by suggesting that the God who is addressed by Jews
is not the true God in whom we live and move and have our being.

CAR
credmond@watmath

tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (04/10/91)

In article <Apr.9.03.58.19.1991.5737@athos.rutgers.edu> credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) writes:
>
>And I think you ought to think carefully about whether you have
>insulted both Jews and some other Christians (I won't say, also
>insulted God!) by suggesting that the God who is addressed by Jews
>is not the true God in whom we live and move and have our being.

I don't mean to insult Jews or any Christians, but let's be honest: the God
who is addressed by Jews is not the true God in whom we Christians live and
move and have our being.  This is the very message of Christianity.  The
best we can say is that Jews worship an incomplete God, because they fail
to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the final, complete revelation of God's
Being. (Hebrews 1:2,3)  "They have a zeal for God, but they lack
knowledge." (Romans 10:2)  And I would argue that zeal in worshiping an
incomplete God, when the truth in manifest, is the same as worshiping an
idol.

I realize this is uncomfortable for some; it's an uncomfortable subject. 
And I realize also that some of my remarks are not "socially correct." It's
not polite to tell folks they need to believe such and such a thing for
their eternal welfare.

Jesus and His apostles made it quite clear to their fellow Jews that those
who did not follow after the Christ were following after the Father of
lies.  "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceed from the
God." (John 8:42; cf. John 8:19,44)  It is sad, but true: those who do not
love Christ do not worship the Father.  This is precisely the point which
gave impetus to the missionary activity of the early Church, especially
among the natural children of Abraham.  The disciples KNEW that without
Christ their fellow Jews were facing an eternity of condemnation.  And it's
no doubt a contributing factor in understanding why  Jewish Christian were
excommunicated from the Jewish synagogues very early in the life of the
Church.  They refused to stop reminding their fellow Jews that without
Messiah they were in trouble.

Unfortunately, many denominations today lack that early zeal for Jewish
evangelism.  I am reminded that Scottish Presbyterians used to have
specific prayers for conversion of the Jews in their Directory of Worship. 
They looked forward to a day of glory when a great number of Jews would be
converted to Christ and spread the blessing of God to the world, in keeping
with the promise of Romans 11:26.  But today the oldline denominations,
some of which are descended from the Church of Scotland, are more prone to
call a conference to discuss "Christian/Jewish dialog," (and I don't mean
Justin Martyr's version) than call for renewed evangelism among the Jewish
people.  We just don't want to offend.  We want to live and let live. 
Meanwhile, Jews are following the broad path that leads to destruction. 
Are we content with knowing that "Jews worship the Father?"  Is that an
eternally useful concept?

And on the matter of the Passover lead by a Jew, the fact is all these
modern day Passover celebration have been developed SINCE the coming of
Messiah.  The Jew who wrote the service that Elizabeth attended consciously
understood the difference between Jew and Christian.  This is therefore not
simply a collection of innocent prayers.  It is a calculated method for
highlighting the distinction between Jew and Christian, and probably aimed
at reminding the original Jewish audience why they are not Christians.  "We
have Abraham as our father."  (John 8:39).  Christians should be uncomfortable
in this environment, especially if the atmosphere stiffles the opportunity
for telling the rabbi of his need for Messiah Jesus.


-- 
Tom Albrecht

cms@dragon.uucp (04/10/91)

In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu>, billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes:

> 4) The Matzoh can be seen as a type of Christ.  I don't recall all the
> details (one of our Messianic breatheren enumerated them at one of our
> "seders" several years ago):
>  
> a) The Matzoh is singed (burnt) just as Jesus was scourged.
> b) The Matzoh is pierced with holes just as Jesus was pierced with a
> spear.
> c) The Matzoh is broken just as Jesus's body was broken.

 Jesus's body was not broken.  He did, however, break the bread.  For 
some reason, I've often heard Jewish Christian groups (I might include 
Nazarene under this category, though not strongly) refer to the broken 
body of Christ.  Perhaps they mean "broken" by the heavy flogging?  In 
other words, a figurative not a literal brokenness.  At any rate, 
Old Testament Scripture indicates that the Messiah's body was not to 
be broken.

> Shalom Yeshua 
> 
> Bill Gripp 

-- 
                                   Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
	        	 _///_ //  SPAWN OF A JEWISH       _///_ //
      _///_ //         <`)=  _<<     CARPENTER   _///_ //<`)=  _<<
    <`)=  _<<	 _///_ // \\\  \\   \\ _\\\_   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
       \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<             >IXOYE=('>   \\\  \\
                  \\\  \\_///_ //   //  ///   _///_ //    _///_ //
emory!dragon!cms       <`)=  _<<   _///_ // <`)=  _<<   <`)=  _<<
                          \\\  \\<`)=  _<<     \\\  \\     \\\  \\
GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia

conan@rosarita.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (04/14/91)

In article <Apr.10.04.11.59.1991.10981@athos.rutgers.edu> dvnspc1!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>

[ A discussion on Passover for Christians, leading into a discussion on
  the "need" to convert Jews; see below ]

>And on the matter of the Passover lead by a Jew, the fact is all these
>modern day Passover celebration have been developed SINCE the coming of
>Messiah.  The Jew who wrote the service that Elizabeth attended consciously
>understood the difference between Jew and Christian.  This is therefore not
>simply a collection of innocent prayers.  It is a calculated method for
>highlighting the distinction between Jew and Christian, and probably aimed
>at reminding the original Jewish audience why they are not Christians.  "We
>have Abraham as our father."  (John 8:39).  Christians should be uncomfortable
>in this environment, especially if the atmosphere stiffles the opportunity
>for telling the rabbi of his need for Messiah Jesus.

With no offense to the author, this passage sounds both slightly paranoid
and slightly anti-semitic.  Every passover service (hagaddah sp?) I have 
ever read or heard contained _nothing_ to indicate that the author was
purposefully trying to distinguish between Jews and Christians.  I fail
to see what is gained by imputing otherwise.

On the more general subject of the salvation of Jews, I would like to
quote from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, a key document of
Vatican II:

	(2.16)  ...we must recall the people to whom the [old] testament
	and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born 
	according to the flesh.  On account of their fathers this
	people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of
	the gifts He makes nor of the call He issues. (cf Rom. 11,28-29)

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO

tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/14/91)

In article <Apr.10.04.11.59.1991.10981@athos.rutgers.edu> dvnspc1!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>I don't mean to insult Jews or any Christians, but let's be honest: the God
>who is addressed by Jews is not the true God in whom we Christians live and
>move and have our being.  This is the very message of Christianity.  The
>best we can say is that Jews worship an incomplete God, because they fail
>to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the final, complete revelation of God's
>Being. (Hebrews 1:2,3)  "They have a zeal for God, but they lack
>knowledge." (Romans 10:2)  And I would argue that zeal in worshiping an
>incomplete God, when the truth in manifest, is the same as worshiping an
>idol.
>...

God made a covenant with his people.  Is he a man? that he would break a
covenant?

Romans 3:1-4
   Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles?  Or is there
any value in being circumcised?  2 Much, indeed, in every way!  In the
first place, God trusted his message to the Jews.  3 But what if some of
them were not faithful?  Does this mean that God will not be faithful?
4 Certainly not!  God must be true, even though every man is a liar.  As
the scripture says,
	"You must be shown to be right when you speak;
	 you must win your case when you are being tried."

If you believe your faith may be threatened by participating in a Seder,
then by all means do not go.  Many Christians believe that this helps to
better put in perspective "The Last Supper".  It connects them more
closely with Jesus and his original Disciples.


					Tom Blake
					SUNY-Binghamton

billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/14/91)

In article <Apr.10.05.04.56.1991.11468@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes:

>some reason, I've often heard Jewish Christian groups (I might include 
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Nazarene under this category, though not strongly) refer to the broken 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why?  From what I've been told, The Church of the Nazarene is an off shoot
from the Assemblies of God.  After all, since the Catholic Church claims
that the Pope is directly "descended" (authority wise, not genetically)
from Peter, I might include the Catholic Church (and any direct
offshoots like the Anglicans) as Jewish Christians too =8^).


>body of Christ.  Perhaps they mean "broken" by the heavy flogging?  In 
>other words, a figurative not a literal brokenness.  At any rate, 
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
               Exactly 

>Old Testament Scripture indicates that the Messiah's body was not to 
>be broken.

Remember English is full of colloquialisms (sp).  When you hear that
someone's "spirit is broken" you don't take that literally do you?


Peace in Christ

Bill Gripp