cms@gatech.edu (03/19/91)
I have a book called "The Passover Meal: a ritual for Christian homes" by Arleen Hynes. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? For the Seder, at Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four questions, etc. We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated Passover with his disciples. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/20/91)
In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > > I have a book called "The Passover Meal: a ritual for Christian >homes" by Arleen Hynes. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on >Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the >Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? For the Seder, at >Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four >questions, etc. We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated >Passover with his disciples. > >-- > Sincerely, >Cindy Smith Cindy, In our parish we have celebrated what I refer to as a Pseudo-Seder on Maundy Thursday fairly consistantly for the last decade or so. (In this time we have had 4 pastors, the latest has termed our gathering a "New Testament Dinner" she posts a list of appropriate dishes, and members of the congregation sign up to bring various items. Following dinner, we celebrate communion around the tables. This year at my suggestion we will also be viewing a rather good video entitled "In Rememberance" as I recall. I was first introduced to this video on an "Emaus Walk", and reccomend it to anyone out there responsible for setting program in the church. It is appropriate for youth on up through adults, and gives an introduction to the Last Supper, the rituals and the participants. The first time we celebrated a Seder, our pastor at that time got a copy of the ritual as it would be celebrated by a Jewish fellowship. We did not perform the entire ritual, but he read us the part to remind Israel of all the Lord had done for them, then continued with appropriate reminders of the New Testament. I found this to be quite a meaningful ceremony. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) (03/22/91)
In article <Mar.20.02.51.19.1991.8907@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) writes: > In our parish we have celebrated what I refer to as a Pseudo-Seder > on Maundy Thursday fairly consistantly for the last decade or so. (In > this time we have had 4 pastors, the latest has termed our gathering a > "New Testament Dinner" ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ IMHO, it is a wise idea to call your derived-from-the-Jewish-Passover ceremony/gathering something other than a 'Seder' or 'pseudo-Seder' or anything related to the terms 'Passover' or 'Pesach.' There's enough bad feelings on both sides already, and by simply renaming the ceremony, you can bring peace and avoid confusion and ill will. As an example of the risk of re-casting the term 'Passover,' consider the case of the local newspaper editor in a large southern New Jersey suburban township who around 1983 innocently ran a feature on Easter and another on Passover. The (non-Jewish) editor got the Easter column from a local church and her Passover column from a group calling itself "Friends of Israel," which also turned out to be Christian, despite its name. When the column appeared (including phrases on the order of 'the 3 matzos symbolize the Trinity, and the wine, the blood of ...'), the editor had no idea why hundreds of irate Jewish subscribers vociferously expressed their displeasure in no uncertain terms. The editor apologized profusely in the next issue, but it was years before the editor and paper re-earned respect from the Jewish community of the township. Let that be a lesson for those who demand the right to redefine well-defined religious observances and tenets in the context of other religions without selecting new and unique terms to describe these modified practices. If you'll pardon the expression, friendly forces such as the above editor may end up getting caught in the crossfire. Thank you for your consideration, Rob -- Robert A. Levene \ I am the sole legitimate representative "/ // / /" \ and policy maker for my race, culture, Bitnet: RXL1@APLVM.BITNET \ country, religion, political party, Internet: levene@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu \ employer and extended family. So there.
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (03/22/91)
In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu>, emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > I have a book called "The Passover Meal: a ritual for Christian > homes" by Arleen Hynes. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on > Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the > Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? For the Seder, at > Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four > questions, etc. We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated > Passover with his disciples. I participated in a Christian Seder dinner at Pigrim Lutheran Church in Minneapolis, about two years back. For some reason it was not scheduled anytime close to passover or Easter, (an exercise of Christian freedom, I guess). We celebrated the Lord's Supper as part of the meal, reasoning that the first 'last supper' was a passover meal. It was interesting and educational, but there is also room for confusion in this practice. I base this on my experience from this one dinner. A passover dinner, by God's command, was for the whole family. Yet the apostle Paul intructs us that 'A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup', (1 Cor 11:28). This clearly indicates that taking the Lord's supper is a serious matter, which requires maturity and self-examination. Those who take the sacrament should at the very least understand what the sacrament is and what it means -- 1 Cor 11:29. Most churches seek to ensure this by requiring 'confirmation' before admitting someone to the Lord's supper. We don't just casually give it to our children. I would guess that the children at a Jewish passover would be permitted to drink some wine and eat some Matzoh bread -- though I presume the wine would not be given casually. Well, at this passover we had about twelve tables, and I was the head of one table. There was a young man at the table who was to be confirmed somewhat later. I was concerned about how to handle the situation, so I asked the pastor. He advised the young man, 'just drink grape juice instead' or words to that effect. It really didn't seem to address the problem. I think the pastor spoke somewhat hastily, being questioned on the spot. To this day I think that young man had his first communion at that Seder dinner, and not at his confirmation. I would hate for him to be confused about the matter, and I certainly hope he is not. I don't think it should weigh on his conscience, but it does weigh somewhat on mine. This brings to mind an interesting contrast between the Passover and the Lord's Supper. The Passover is a real meal; it started as a 'getting away' meal for the Israelites in Egypt. It was supposed to provide real material nutrition for the participants. The Lord's Supper began as a passover meal, or as the end of one, yet was subsequently celebrated more frequently than Passover (Acts 2:42-47 seems to refer to 'breaking of bread' as communion), and it was subsequently made clear that the sacrament was not to be a source of physical nutrition, but of spiritual. "If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgement." 1 Cor 11:34. A young man at a Seder dinner needs food and drink. True, the Lord's Supper is just part of the dinner, in our case, at the end of the dinner. He can eat and drink whatever everyone else does outside of the sacrament. But it takes a quick mind and a well informed conscience to know that he should stop eating and drinking when we come to the Lord's Supper. In addition, if the bread and wine/grape juice is sitting before him, and he starts taking the sacrament, it would be disruptive for the head of the table to tell him to stop. These are (most of) my thoughts concerning the 'Christian Seder'. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "A Lamb goes uncomplaining forth, The guilt of all men bearing; And laden with the sins of earth, None else the burden sharing! Goes patient on, grows weak and faint, To slaughter led without complaint, That spotless life to offer; Bears shame, and stripes, and wounds and death, Anguish and mockery, and saith, "Willing all this I suffer." --'A Lamb Goes Uncomplaining Forth' v.1 --(Ein Laemlein geht) --Paul Gerhardt, 1648 --from 'The Lutheran Hymnal' #142. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [Yes, I've always wondered about things like seders and agapes which aren't quite communion but look like it. They do present interesting issues. I've seen an "agape" used in ecumenical settings among groups that do not have have intercommunion. I should note that the decision about when to admit people to communion may be somewhat more varied than you imply. I am fairly sure that Catholics and Episcopaleans allow communion before confirmation. PC(USA) has "commissioning" rather than "confirmation", and we also allow communion (at parents' discretion) before that. In all cases responsible people are supposed to make sure that the child does understand something of the significane of the act. I believe some Eastern groups allow communion of infants. --clh]
dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (03/22/91)
In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu>, emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > I have a book called "The Passover Meal: a ritual for Christian > homes" by Arleen Hynes. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on > Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the > Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? For the Seder, at > Saint Bede's, we have lamb, all the traditional foods, the four > questions, etc. We try to celebrate in the same way Jesus celebrated > Passover with his disciples. In our parish (Catholic), there is a Passover Seder Meal which is organized by a parishioner who is a convert from Judaism. I've never attended, but I would guess that it follows the traditions she was raised in. -dh
Jeremy.Gibbons@prg.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Gibbons) (03/22/91)
Cindy Smith writes: > I have a book called "The Passover Meal: a ritual for Christian > homes" by Arleen Hynes. Cindy, could you post a ref for this book (publisher etc), please? > I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the Jewish Passover > according to this Christian method? [...] We try to celebrate in the same > way Jesus celebrated Passover with his disciples. My fellowship group will be having a Passover meal next week (Tuesday 26th). There has been some debate about how `accurate' we should be; the consensus is that we will have the four questions, the readings (in English!) etc, but Christian songs and not-necessarily-kosher food. Jeremy *-----------------------------------------------------------------------* | Jeremy Gibbons (jg@uk.ac.oxford.prg) Funky Monkey Multimedia Corp | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
cms@gatech.edu (03/25/91)
Several people have asked me about the book I mentioned in an earlier posting. Here it is: The Passover Meal: A Ritual for Christian Homes by Arlene Hynes Paulist Press, New York. Copyright 1972 by the Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle in the State of New York. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 76-187207 Published by Paulist Press 997 Macarthur Boulevard Mahwah, N.J. 07430 For what it's worth, I purchased this book at a chain called "Cokesbury." It's a small book, a paperback, and costs $2.95. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (03/27/91)
[Cindy Smith mentioned that she got a book at Cokesbury. --clh] For those of you without a Cokesbury in town, you can order toll free 1-800-672-1789. (I deal with Cokesbury frequently. ;-) ) Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton [Cokesbury is the Methodist Publishing House. I believe they also acquired Westminster Press, the publishing house of the United Presbyterian Church. It's possible that the PC(USA) has its own publishing house again after the merger with the southern church. Fortress (Lutheran) runs a similar set of stores, and I'm sure other publishing houses do as well. There are a number of national Christian bookstores that will be happy to deal with you over the phone. At some point it might be worth making an attempt to collection information about them. --clh]
fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) (04/01/91)
In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > >. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on >Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the >Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA). About 80 people turned out this past Monday (day after Palm Sunday, for the net.time.warp). Each family brought a pot-luck vegetable dish, and the parish staff cooked lamb and prepared the symbolic foods. Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would have enacted with his disciples. -- -- Kathy E.F.Daly -- - -- "A bad .sig file is better than no .sig file at all." Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies (go figure...) Land Line by day: (408)970-4263
tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (04/02/91)
In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes: >In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: >> >>. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on >>Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the >>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? > >Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA). ... > >Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would >have enacted with his disciples. Then why bother? I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would institute this sort of tradition in their churches? It seems to me that both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New Covenant (represented by the Eucharist). The Passover was a type of the ultimate work of God in delivering His people from the bondage of sin. When the antitype appeared, the type was no longer necessary. In fact, the type is, by definition, imperfect. There is beauty in the Eucharist; a beauty not found in the Passover. Jesus purpose in establishing His church was to universalize the truth of God's revelation in a way that was impossible to do under the parochial Jewish system of religion. Judaism was perfect, but only to a point. Following the death and resurrection of Christ something superior was brought into existence. That's where the Church comes in. Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in them? Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the imperfection of the Old Covenant? Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental custom? -- Tom Albrecht
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/04/91)
In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: >In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes: >>In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > >I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would >institute this sort of tradition in their churches? It seems to me that >both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the >Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New >Covenant (represented by the Eucharist). The Passover was a type of the > >Tom Albrecht In the church I attend (Church of the Nazarene), we have had passover Seders, administered by "Messianic Jews" who were members of our congregation. The point is not to celebrate a Seder as a requirement of the Law, but rather: 1) To remember the great work that God did in freeing the children of Israel. The feasts/hoidays of the OT have been/will be fullfilled in Messiah. Why should one not celebrate BOTH the OT and NT "versions"? Do not BOTH show us the glory and power of God, that He alone is true to his Holy Word? That He keeps his promises? 2) To recognize how these events are a "type" of Christ (as the Children of Israel were freed, so shall all men be freed by Messiah). 3) To remmember that God made promises to Israel regarding the fate of the Jewish people. Just because the Jews have rejected Jesus as the Messiah does not mean that God will turn from them. God's promises were unconditional and are still in force. Remmember, Paul said that the gentile believers are as a wild olive branch grafted into a tame olive tree - Israel. Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the promises. The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 years. "To the Jew _first_ and the gentile also." 4) The Matzoh can be seen as a type of Christ. I don't recall all the details (one of our Messianic breatheren enumerated them at one of our "seders" several years ago): a) The Matzoh is singed (burnt) just as Jesus was scourged. b) The Matzoh is pierced with holes just as Jesus was pierced with a spear. c) The Matzoh is broken just as Jesus's body was broken. If I can get the details from Gary I'll post the list (if there is interest). For these very same reasons, my church uses Matzoh at our communion services. After all, the Last Supper was a Passover Seder among 13 Jews, do you really think they used a loaf of white bread??? It was more likely Matzoh than anything else. Shalom Yeshua Bill Gripp
levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) (04/05/91)
In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: >> I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would >> institute this sort of tradition in their churches? It seems to me that >> both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the >> Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New >> Covenant (represented by the Eucharist). The Passover was a type of the In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu> billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) replies: > ... Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the > promises. The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has > caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 > years. I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Bill here. Once Christianity established a distinct identity from Judaism, Jews no longer cared about the Christian theology, and have had very little to say on the subject, let alone "animosity." That's why Tom's attitude is commendable in my view, since I couldn't care less what you think of my Covenant, as long as you don't bother me. The animosity Bill describes stems from 2000 years of (1) blaming Jews for deicide (2) assuming that Jews are somehow devils {see St. John Chrysostom's and Martin Luther's writings; references available on request} and (3) various bizarre blood libels and ritual murder accusations, such as "Hugh of Lincoln" all of which were used to justify large-scale murdering of Jews, i.e. the Crusades. In the past few decades, many positive steps have been taken to eliminate the deicide and blood libels from mainstream belief, and that's a Good Thing, and holds the most promise for improving inter-religious relations to a stage of mutual respect. However, the attitude that attempts to redefine Judaism to include Christianity through "Messianic Jews" produces precisely the opposite effect, and *does* cause animosity, especially among knowledgeable Jews, who view it as an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, as is clear when Bill notes that they hold memberships in a "Church of the Nazarene." Talk about passing the duck test... Pretending or insisting that "Messianic Jews" and "Passover for Christians" will improve relations does not make it so, despite your good intentions. Thank you for your consideration. - Rob -- Robert A. Levene \ I am the sole legitimate representative "/ // / /" \ and policy maker for my race, culture, Bitnet: RXL1@APLVM.BITNET \ country, religion, political party, Internet: levene@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu \ employer and extended family. So there.
fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) (04/06/91)
In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: >In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Daly) writes: >> >>Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would >>have enacted with his disciples. > >Then why bother? > >I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would >institute this sort of tradition in their churches? >. . . >Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in >them? Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the >imperfection of the Old Covenant? Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental >custom? >-- >Tom Albrecht Admittedly, I am new to the Catholic church and may not understand why my parish does what it does. As I recall, there was no explanation of how to approach the meal. I *think* it was done as a reminder of the roots of both our faith (as a delivered people) and our Eucharist (as a holy meal). The parish has been doing this for only ten years, and judging by the small turn-out, it does not hold much meaning for many people. It felt more like a community social event than anything else. I would have *preferred* a re-enactment of The Last Supper, and would have thought of it as theatre. Is a procession at Easter or Stations of the Cross anything more than drama? (I mean that on the surface; an individual can make anything into a religious experience.) I believe Jesus did not pick bread and wine out of thin air, but was building on something that already had meaning, and then *changed* those meanings. He said "Take THIS cup", not "Take a cup of wine..." like a recipe. I would have found it insightful to experience the break with tradition that occured at the "Last Passover/First Eucharist" from the eyes of the participants, and a re-enactment is a good vehicle. Next year, I'll give it a miss. -- Kathy E.F.Daly -- - -- "A bad .sig file is better than no .sig file at all." (technically) Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies . . and neither one is liable nor responsible for anything I say or do. daly%ddtisvr@uunet.uu.net -or- fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp -or- (408)970-4263
cms@dragon.uucp (04/06/91)
In article <Apr.2.03.36.06.1991.19775@athos.rutgers.edu>, tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: > In article <Apr.1.04.05.52.1991.8144@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes: >>In article <Mar.18.11.56.15.1991.8536@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: >>> >>>. At our parish, we celebrate a Seder Meal on >>>Maundy Thursday. I was wondering if anyone out there celebrates the >>>Jewish Passover according to this Christian method? >> >>Yep, at St. Justin's in Santa Clara (CA). ... >> >>Our haggadah follows the modern seder, not really what Jesus would >>have enacted with his disciples. > > Then why bother? > > I'm curious as to why Christians, especially gentile Christians, would > institute this sort of tradition in their churches? It seems to me that > both the Biblical and historical evidence points to the passing away of the > Old Covenant (as symbolized by the Jewish Passover) in favor of the New > Covenant (represented by the Eucharist). The Passover was a type of the > ultimate work of God in delivering His people from the bondage of sin. > When the antitype appeared, the type was no longer necessary. In fact, the > type is, by definition, imperfect. There is beauty in the Eucharist; a beauty > not found in the Passover. In the Passover meal, each participant is invited to partake of three cups of wine. The first cup is the Cup of Sanctification when the Leader recalls the story of the Exodus. After much of the ceremony, we come to the second cup of wine, the Cup of Redemption in which we recall the promise of liberation. Then the meal is served. For the Liturgy for Maundy Thursday, the priest recalls the institution of the Sacrament of His Body and Blood. Then we read the Gospel and pray the prayers of intercession. Finally comes the third cup of wine, the Cup of Thanksgiving. After the prayers of thanksgiving, the people receive the Eucharist. In other words, the Eucharist _is_ the third Cup of Wine, the Cup of Thanksgiving. This is the purpose of the meal: To remember the events up to and including the Eucharist, incorporating the whole life of Christ, his life and death and resurrection, under the species of bread and wine. Rather than replacing Passover, Christianity fulfills all of its promises. Christianity is not divided into Jewish and Christian, rather Christian _is_ Jewish and Christian. > Jesus purpose in establishing His church was to universalize the truth of > God's revelation in a way that was impossible to do under the parochial > Jewish system of religion. Judaism was perfect, but only to a point. > Following the death and resurrection of Christ something superior was brought > into existence. That's where the Church comes in. > > Do those who favor such practices see religious (worship?) significance in > them? Does their institution unwittingly drive the Church back to the > imperfection of the Old Covenant? Or is it simply a harmless, sentimental > custom? As noted, it is a central custom. Generally, we celebrate the most important aspects of it every day (or every Sunday). Once per year we recall the full story so as not to forget where we came from nor where we are going. > Tom Albrecht -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (04/06/91)
In response to the questions about celebrating the Jewish Passover - Is it just symbolic? Could there be some "religious problems" with it? I'm glad that this issue has been raised. It has been bugging me since Maudy Thursday. This past Maudy Thursday, I went to a bi-weekly regular meeting of a campus Christian group. I was surprised to find a Passover meal set a every place. There were booklets on the table, but I did not pay any attention to them at first. Our speaker got up and discussed the Passover meal, and then told us that our special guest would be leading us in the Passover meal. Then, he made a bid deal out of telling us that the "leader" is Jewish. I was rather upset, and wondered how a Christian group could condone having a Jew lead us in a religious-related event, espcially on Maudy Thursday, when we gather to honor Jesus. After all, Jews don't believe in Jesus, except for Messianic Jews, who are actually Christians (welcome to the family). So, our guest speaker told us to pick up the booklets on the table, and to follow him in recitative readings. The readings were a combination of Old Testament scripture and words addressed to God. Almost everyone around me was participating, but I stopped on the first page because the stuff sounded really weird to me - it did not sound like church literature and was deviod of praising Jesus. I looked through the booklet, and found on the cover that it was written by a local rabbi! I felt nausiated. I was participating in another religion's ceremony. I might as well be yelling "praise Mohammed." I could not stand it. I left the room. The minister, who was sitting on the side followed me out and asked me why I was leaving. I told him as explained above. He told me that I "just didn't understand what they were doing" and that they "were not having a religious cermony." So, I asked "what then do you call it when there are scripture readings and words addressed to God?" He repeated the same, accused me of not believing in the Trinity, and more or less said "It's your problem and not ours." He said that it was a "learning experience" and that he would even be willing to participate in a Moslem ceremony. He told me that this is part of my "spiritual history" because my spiritual ancestors are Jews. I told him that Abraham is my spiritual ancestor and that if Abraham were here today, he would be worshipping Jesus. On the other hand, the speaker and the booklet writer do not worship Jesus, therefore they are not practicing what my spiritual ancestors practiced. I was upset and shocked and have not gone to any meetings since. That afternoon, I went home and baked some unleavened bread and served it with browned fruit and ate it with the "fruit of the vine." We ate in remebrance of the Last Supper, and in remeber- ance of Israel's freedom the Egyptians. My conscious felt fine. In response to the original question - I am certianly no clergy or scholar, but my conscionce tells me that eating a Passover meal is either right or wrong depending on how you do it. For me, the meal at home was sort of Last Supper/Passover meal. It was a meal eaten in rememberance of Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that He made after years of persecution. On the other hand, the meal at school seemed totally deviod of Christ.
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.6.01.28.13.1991.3367@athos.rutgers.edu> !fetherbay@ddtisvr.uucp (Kathy Fetherbay) writes: >I believe Jesus did not pick bread and wine out of thin air, but was >building on something that already had meaning, and then *changed* those >meanings. He said "Take THIS cup", not "Take a cup of wine..." like a recipe. >I would have found it insightful to experience the break with tradition >that occured at the "Last Passover/First Eucharist" from the eyes of >the participants, and a re-enactment is a good vehicle. Kathy, Check out the movie "In Rememberance". It's about 45 minutes long, and does a good job (IMHO) of describing/portraying the rituals, Jesus' alterations of them, and what might have been the Apostles' reactions to these changes, and the Jesus they knew. I don't know what facilities you have available to you. In my case I was able to borrow the video from a library maintained by our conference (roughly analagous to your Diocese). Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.5.03.23.15.1991.9667@athos.rutgers.edu> levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes: > >In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu> >billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) replies: > >> ... Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the >> promises. The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has >> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 >> years. > > I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Bill here. Once >Christianity established a distinct identity from Judaism, Jews no >longer cared about the Christian theology, and have had very little >to say on the subject, let alone "animosity." That's why Tom's >attitude is commendable in my view, since I couldn't care less what >you think of my Covenant, as long as you don't bother me. Perhaps you need to read "between the lines" to understand how I meant this. I did not mean that Jews were sitting there watching Christian doctrine saying "Hey, these goyem (gentiles) are trying to steal our promises from God." Rather, Christians have gotten too egotistical saying "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN". >> The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has >> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 >> years. It has led to the crusades, pogroms, etc. Perhaps this version would have been more understandable. There are Christians (those I consider true Christians) and "Christians" (those who you would probably consider Christain, a much looser and broader definition). Most of what has been done to the Jews in the name of Christ has been done by "Christians". The attitude of "who is interested in that Jew stuff" as espoused by many is again an attitude of some "Christians". Many(most?) Christians (lack of "") have an interest in Judaism because we recognize it as an integral part of our faith. Jesus quoted/refered to many parts of the Torah and Tenach (sp?). The Christian Testament says it is for the Jew FIRST and the Gentile also. Christian doctrine is that Christ fullfilled Jewish Testament Prophesies, Covenants, Festivals, etc. I do not expect you to necessarily accept these interpretations, nor do I expect you to have them forced down your throat, but in this light I do expect you to understand my interest (even if you do see it as misguided, incorrect, etc.). > The animosity Bill describes stems from 2000 years of (1) blaming >Jews for deicide (2) assuming that Jews are somehow devils {see St. >John Chrysostom's and Martin Luther's writings; references available >on request} and (3) various bizarre blood libels and ritual murder >accusations, such as "Hugh of Lincoln" all of which were used to >justify large-scale murdering of Jews, i.e. the Crusades. Exactly, based upon the attitute that "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN". Perhaps if I had chosen my words more carefully you would have understood that I was making exactly the same point. > In the past few decades, many positive steps have been taken to >eliminate the deicide and blood libels from mainstream belief, and >that's a Good Thing, and holds the most promise for improving >inter-religious relations to a stage of mutual respect. > > However, the attitude that attempts to redefine Judaism to include >Christianity through "Messianic Jews" produces precisely the opposite ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is what they call themselves. If you have an issue with that label that is best taken up with them. BTW, they have since left our church and have started their own "Messianic" Congregation, Beth Israel with their own "Messianic Rabbi/Pastor". No flames on this please, this is how they refer to these things themselves. >effect, and *does* cause animosity, especially among knowledgeable >Jews, who view it as an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, as >is clear when Bill notes that they hold memberships in a "Church >of the Nazarene." Talk about passing the duck test... > > Pretending or insisting that "Messianic Jews" and "Passover for >Christians" will improve relations does not make it so, despite >your good intentions. > Robert A. Levene Bill Gripp
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (04/09/91)
In article <Apr.6.01.34.20.1991.3470@athos.rutgers.edu> ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >This past Maudy Thursday, I went to a bi-weekly regular meeting of a campus >Christian group. I was surprised to find a Passover meal set a every place. >I was rather upset, and wondered how a Christian group could condone having >a Jew lead us in a religious-related event, espcially on Maudy Thursday, >when we gather to honor Jesus. After all, Jews don't believe in Jesus, >except for Messianic Jews, who are actually Christians (welcome to the family). >Almost everyone >around me was participating, but I stopped on the first page because the >stuff sounded really weird to me - it did not sound like church literature >and was deviod of praising Jesus. >I felt nausiated. I was participating in another religion's ceremony. I might >as well be yelling "praise Mohammed." I could not stand it. I left the >room. In my view you are quite right to leave a religious ceremony if it upsets your conscience -- or, within reasonable limits, your taste. (There is something to be said for forcing yourself to sit through an event that makes you uncomfortable, for the sake of learning something. On the other hand, there is something to be said for leaving if they're playing Bach and you prefer guitars, or vice versa.) However, again in my view, you are wrong in thinking that a seder is contrary to Christianity, and especially wrong in equating it with praise of Muhammad. Muhammad was a human being -- to Muslims he rates as a prophet, to Christians he rates as a fraud, but to neither group does he equate to God. Jewish prayer, on the other hand, including the prayers at the seder, is addressed exclusively to Almighty God. Unless you can find a prayer you disagree with (they're praying for rain and you want sunshine, or something), I do not see why you should object, or indeed why you should wish not to participate. Now it is true that the Jewish concept of God corresponds more closely to what a Christian would call "God the Father" than to all three persons of the Trinity. Fine. Do you have any objection to praying, for an hour or to, exclusively to God the Father? There are plenty of Christians -- not me, by the way -- who see nothing wrong with addressing virtually all their prayers to God the Son! You may think that over an extended period of your spiritual life, you would want to devote a balance of attention to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Fair enough, but I do not think that's an argument against using Jewish-written prayers for one evening to address God the Father. And I think you ought to think carefully about whether you have insulted both Jews and some other Christians (I won't say, also insulted God!) by suggesting that the God who is addressed by Jews is not the true God in whom we live and move and have our being. CAR credmond@watmath
tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (04/10/91)
In article <Apr.9.03.58.19.1991.5737@athos.rutgers.edu> credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) writes: > >And I think you ought to think carefully about whether you have >insulted both Jews and some other Christians (I won't say, also >insulted God!) by suggesting that the God who is addressed by Jews >is not the true God in whom we live and move and have our being. I don't mean to insult Jews or any Christians, but let's be honest: the God who is addressed by Jews is not the true God in whom we Christians live and move and have our being. This is the very message of Christianity. The best we can say is that Jews worship an incomplete God, because they fail to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the final, complete revelation of God's Being. (Hebrews 1:2,3) "They have a zeal for God, but they lack knowledge." (Romans 10:2) And I would argue that zeal in worshiping an incomplete God, when the truth in manifest, is the same as worshiping an idol. I realize this is uncomfortable for some; it's an uncomfortable subject. And I realize also that some of my remarks are not "socially correct." It's not polite to tell folks they need to believe such and such a thing for their eternal welfare. Jesus and His apostles made it quite clear to their fellow Jews that those who did not follow after the Christ were following after the Father of lies. "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceed from the God." (John 8:42; cf. John 8:19,44) It is sad, but true: those who do not love Christ do not worship the Father. This is precisely the point which gave impetus to the missionary activity of the early Church, especially among the natural children of Abraham. The disciples KNEW that without Christ their fellow Jews were facing an eternity of condemnation. And it's no doubt a contributing factor in understanding why Jewish Christian were excommunicated from the Jewish synagogues very early in the life of the Church. They refused to stop reminding their fellow Jews that without Messiah they were in trouble. Unfortunately, many denominations today lack that early zeal for Jewish evangelism. I am reminded that Scottish Presbyterians used to have specific prayers for conversion of the Jews in their Directory of Worship. They looked forward to a day of glory when a great number of Jews would be converted to Christ and spread the blessing of God to the world, in keeping with the promise of Romans 11:26. But today the oldline denominations, some of which are descended from the Church of Scotland, are more prone to call a conference to discuss "Christian/Jewish dialog," (and I don't mean Justin Martyr's version) than call for renewed evangelism among the Jewish people. We just don't want to offend. We want to live and let live. Meanwhile, Jews are following the broad path that leads to destruction. Are we content with knowing that "Jews worship the Father?" Is that an eternally useful concept? And on the matter of the Passover lead by a Jew, the fact is all these modern day Passover celebration have been developed SINCE the coming of Messiah. The Jew who wrote the service that Elizabeth attended consciously understood the difference between Jew and Christian. This is therefore not simply a collection of innocent prayers. It is a calculated method for highlighting the distinction between Jew and Christian, and probably aimed at reminding the original Jewish audience why they are not Christians. "We have Abraham as our father." (John 8:39). Christians should be uncomfortable in this environment, especially if the atmosphere stiffles the opportunity for telling the rabbi of his need for Messiah Jesus. -- Tom Albrecht
cms@dragon.uucp (04/10/91)
In article <Apr.4.01.00.43.1991.14958@athos.rutgers.edu>, billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes: > 4) The Matzoh can be seen as a type of Christ. I don't recall all the > details (one of our Messianic breatheren enumerated them at one of our > "seders" several years ago): > > a) The Matzoh is singed (burnt) just as Jesus was scourged. > b) The Matzoh is pierced with holes just as Jesus was pierced with a > spear. > c) The Matzoh is broken just as Jesus's body was broken. Jesus's body was not broken. He did, however, break the bread. For some reason, I've often heard Jewish Christian groups (I might include Nazarene under this category, though not strongly) refer to the broken body of Christ. Perhaps they mean "broken" by the heavy flogging? In other words, a figurative not a literal brokenness. At any rate, Old Testament Scripture indicates that the Messiah's body was not to be broken. > Shalom Yeshua > > Bill Gripp -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
conan@rosarita.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (04/14/91)
In article <Apr.10.04.11.59.1991.10981@athos.rutgers.edu> dvnspc1!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: > [ A discussion on Passover for Christians, leading into a discussion on the "need" to convert Jews; see below ] >And on the matter of the Passover lead by a Jew, the fact is all these >modern day Passover celebration have been developed SINCE the coming of >Messiah. The Jew who wrote the service that Elizabeth attended consciously >understood the difference between Jew and Christian. This is therefore not >simply a collection of innocent prayers. It is a calculated method for >highlighting the distinction between Jew and Christian, and probably aimed >at reminding the original Jewish audience why they are not Christians. "We >have Abraham as our father." (John 8:39). Christians should be uncomfortable >in this environment, especially if the atmosphere stiffles the opportunity >for telling the rabbi of his need for Messiah Jesus. With no offense to the author, this passage sounds both slightly paranoid and slightly anti-semitic. Every passover service (hagaddah sp?) I have ever read or heard contained _nothing_ to indicate that the author was purposefully trying to distinguish between Jews and Christians. I fail to see what is gained by imputing otherwise. On the more general subject of the salvation of Jews, I would like to quote from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, a key document of Vatican II: (2.16) ...we must recall the people to whom the [old] testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the call He issues. (cf Rom. 11,28-29) Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/14/91)
In article <Apr.10.04.11.59.1991.10981@athos.rutgers.edu> dvnspc1!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: >I don't mean to insult Jews or any Christians, but let's be honest: the God >who is addressed by Jews is not the true God in whom we Christians live and >move and have our being. This is the very message of Christianity. The >best we can say is that Jews worship an incomplete God, because they fail >to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the final, complete revelation of God's >Being. (Hebrews 1:2,3) "They have a zeal for God, but they lack >knowledge." (Romans 10:2) And I would argue that zeal in worshiping an >incomplete God, when the truth in manifest, is the same as worshiping an >idol. >... God made a covenant with his people. Is he a man? that he would break a covenant? Romans 3:1-4 Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised? 2 Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, God trusted his message to the Jews. 3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? 4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though every man is a liar. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried." If you believe your faith may be threatened by participating in a Seder, then by all means do not go. Many Christians believe that this helps to better put in perspective "The Last Supper". It connects them more closely with Jesus and his original Disciples. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/14/91)
In article <Apr.10.05.04.56.1991.11468@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes: >some reason, I've often heard Jewish Christian groups (I might include ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Nazarene under this category, though not strongly) refer to the broken ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why? From what I've been told, The Church of the Nazarene is an off shoot from the Assemblies of God. After all, since the Catholic Church claims that the Pope is directly "descended" (authority wise, not genetically) from Peter, I might include the Catholic Church (and any direct offshoots like the Anglicans) as Jewish Christians too =8^). >body of Christ. Perhaps they mean "broken" by the heavy flogging? In >other words, a figurative not a literal brokenness. At any rate, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly >Old Testament Scripture indicates that the Messiah's body was not to >be broken. Remember English is full of colloquialisms (sp). When you hear that someone's "spirit is broken" you don't take that literally do you? Peace in Christ Bill Gripp