ls2d+@andrew.cmu.edu (Laura Spencer) (09/01/89)
I'd like to ask two questions to any interested people here: In my non-Christian marriage, we consult each other about major decisions, as I see many of you do also. We are a "team". What makes our marriage different from a Christian one, in this regard? The consensus here is that a Christian marriage is not to be a man's tyranny over a woman. But there are some (women as well as men) who will defend a tyrannical marriage as being "God's will" or the like. If this tyranny is *not* Christian, then what do you think about these people who live by the equation "Christian marriage = wife as slave to husband" ? Are they stumbling in some way? From your (Christian) point of view, what do you see here? Regards to all. Laura [To your first question, I think the answer is going to depend upon one's concept of Christian marriage. Actually, I think even those who think of the husband as leader would say that they consult each other about major decisions, and that they are a team. However teams may have leaders, and some Christians conceive of the husband as the leader. Others do not. Probably your marriage is rather similar in this regard to those who do not believe that the husband is automatically the leader. Of course there will be other differences. A Christian marriage includes a commitment to Christian fellowship between the partners, i.e. to a specifically religious dimension to the marriage. To the second question, it seems to me that you have supplied your own answer. You are right that no one here believes Christian marriage is supposed to be a tyranny. Of course some Christians do not accept the idea that the husband is automatically the leader. But whether you accept it or not, any leadership that goes on is supposed to put the other partner's interests above your own. The model is the relationship between Christ and mankind, in which Christ was the servant of all, and died for us. Anyone who uses Christian authority to push his own interests above those of the person he is responsible for is acting contrary to the express provisions of Scripture. I'm not sure whether this is an answer to your question or not. --clh]
kriz@spica.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) (09/04/89)
[Laura Spencer, ls2d+@andrew.cmu.edu, described her (non-Christian) marriage, in which husband and wife are a team, adn asked whether it is different from a Christian one. She also asked what we think of a husband who, despite the concensus of this group that he should not be, is tyannical. --clh] The difference between your marriage and a Christian one is that ... well, you are not Christian. The question then is, why would it be better for you to be Christian rather than not. I somehow sense you don't believe there is any particular need for you to be a Christian, because if you did ... you'd be one. For me, I guess I got tired of hearing how "black really is white," that drugs are ok (they don't hurt anybody), that promiscuity is ok (so long as you don't get caught creating a child), that punting the created child is ok (because it's "your choice"), that greed is ok (how else can one get the beemer), and so on. Everyone of those "hey this is the 'real world' value statements" made me ill. I don't believe them. I then look at the cross, Christ nailed to the Cross, and I remember the Catholic liturgy heard everyday at mass ... that this is the "perfect sacrifice that reconciled God and the world." And I say "thank you." And it makes sense. Christ on the Cross is the most unambiguous sign of what it is to serve and to sacrifice that I can imagine. The good shephard lays down his life for the flock. And here he actually did so. And this then can explain to you why in a Christian marriage, a leader need not be (and isn't supposed to be) a tyrant. A leader in the Christian sense leads by being a servant. He who wishes to be first must be willing to be last That's basic Christian morality. In a phrase the question "What about MY needs?" doesn't come up in a Christian marriage, (or for that matter EVER in any context). Instead both people ask about the other's needs. And that again is Biblical, coming from Paul. To the extent that this is respected, and you are a Christian, you have a Christian marriage. If that isn't the case, there's no reason why you can not change it ... and that is between you and God. dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu
gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) (04/10/91)
I'm looking for anyone who'd have a good list of OT/NT references regarding
love (as in two members of the opposite sex) and marriage, i.e. sanctity,
faithfulness, sex, etc. It's for a Sundaay School discussion.
Thanks.
--
Robert John Butera Jr., aka "Knome" | "Indeed, one can reasonably argue
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 | that total objectivity can only
uucp: ...!{...}!gatech!prism!gt5614b | be the product of total indifference
ARPA: gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu | or total ignorance" -- Jody Powell
[I'll try to give a starting point, though I suspect others will want
to contribute more. This is certainly not intended as a complete
list. Eph 5:21-33 is the most extended treatment I can think of about
marriage in the NT. You might want to point them to Song of Solomon.
Many kids are shocked to find such a thing in the Bible. (It's
helpful in countering the common impression that sex is dirty to know
that there is erotic poetry in the Bible.) Proverbs has various
passages about not philandering, and the prophets are full of passages
comparing prostitution and idolatry. (The same images are used in
Rev.) --clh]conan@rosarita.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (04/14/91)
In article <Apr.10.05.04.31.1991.11457@athos.rutgers.edu> gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) writes: >I'm looking for anyone who'd have a good list of OT/NT references regarding >love (as in two members of the opposite sex) and marriage, i.e. sanctity, >faithfulness, sex, etc. It's for a Sundaay School discussion. Let me recommend the 1st letter of John. This treats love in great detail. My wife and I used a passage from it at our wedding. Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
news@newcastle.ac.uk (04/14/91)
These sections of the NT might be of some help :-
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 God's Love
1 John 4:7-21 & our Love of God
Mark 10:1-12 Marriage
Ephesians 5:21-33
Romans 1:18-32 Permissiveness
1 Corinthians 6:12-20
Some pieces may not be relivant, sorry no OT as I only have my NT with me
Nick
q1rwe@uk.ac.newcastle
God Bless
tja@mullauna.cs.mu.oz.au (Tim ARNOLD) (04/17/91)
In article <Apr.10.05.04.31.1991.11457@athos.rutgers.edu> gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) writes: >I'm looking for anyone who'd have a good list of OT/NT references regarding >love (as in two members of the opposite sex) and marriage, i.e. sanctity, >faithfulness, sex, etc. It's for a Sundaay School discussion. Try 1 Corinthians 7. This is a very clear expression of what Paul assumes is taking place in marriage. Tim. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Arnold | Law/Science (Computer Science) | simil iustus tja@cs.mu.oz.AU | The University of Melbourne | et peccator =============================================================================
benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (04/17/91)
In article <Apr.10.05.04.31.1991.11457@athos.rutgers.edu>, gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) writes: > I'm looking for anyone who'd have a good list of OT/NT references regarding > love (as in two members of the opposite sex) and marriage, i.e. sanctity, > faithfulness, sex, etc. It's for a Sundaay School discussion. > > Thanks. > > -- One of the best investments of $5.00 I ever made was in a book by Charles Swindoll called "Strike the original match." Chuck builds a Biblical base for sound marriage in this book for both wife and husband. My marriage has been greatly enhanced through putting what is discused TO WORK in my marriage. And I'm married to an unbeliever. Think what could happen if both husband and wife were believers. It is easy reading and I believe one of the best books on the subject. I'm giving it out as a wedding gift to everyone I know. Bruce
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (04/21/91)
In article <Apr.10.05.04.31.1991.11457@athos.rutgers.edu> gt5614b@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) writes:
+
+[I'll try to give a starting point, though I suspect others will want
+to contribute more. This is certainly not intended as a complete
+list. Eph 5:21-33 is the most extended treatment I can think of about
+marriage in the NT. You might want to point them to Song of Solomon.
+Many kids are shocked to find such a thing in the Bible. (It's
+helpful in countering the common impression that sex is dirty to know
+that there is erotic poetry in the Bible.) Proverbs has various
Depending on the age of the 'students' some of the inconsistencies
such as Abramham's child by Haggar(sp), or the several handmaidens of
both Leah and Rachel, wives of Jacob. For even more 'moral'
discussion the story of Judah, Tamar, and the source of the family
linage of the 'lion of Judah' and eventually Jesus himself.
Whereas modern Christians seem to have the various pillars of
moralisms which the Roman's held, the Bible has some rather
startling morals. I.e. polygamy was not condemned until the time of
the apostles, probably do to integration with the Roman Empire at
large.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu