jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Johann) (04/05/91)
In article <Apr.4.01.19.08.1991.15338@athos.rutgers.edu>, johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: > The lack of envelopes sounds a bit fishy to me. Jesus said let your giving > be in secret (Matt. 6). However, in Jesus's day, they had a public collection > basket, or something, and Jesus actually watched people put money in it. > (Sorry, don't have the reference.) He said that the woman who put her two > pennies in it gave more than the pharisees who gave a lot more (numerically). > I guess it's safe to say that Jesus (i.e., God) has the right to watch. But > members of the congregation? I don't know. I agree with you. What we give should be in secret. The widow who gave her offering at the temple (I think it was Mark 12 v40 something, sorry I don't have my Bible handy) gave what she had. Simply because the Pharisees were tithing did not mean they were giving from their hearts. Notice, there is no mention as to whether or not the widow gave %10. I personally feel that God should hold us accountable for our sins, not other humans. That includes whether or not we are willing to be generous with his gifts. If you agree with this, than there is no need to worry about how much our neighbor is willing to give to the Lord. > <stuff about giving as sacrament deleted> > Does this mean that ministers, who should encourage people to give joyfully, > won't abuse the money you give? No, but the giving action is between you and > God; he knows your attitude. I agree with your main argument that unwillingness to give is a transgression between God and the individual. In this sense, I have no right to interfere. However, don't I have an obligation to be sure that God's money is being used in accordance with his will? If I knew my church was going to rent our basement to a group of Satan worshippers so they could carry on their rituals, I couldn't be silent. It would be unthinkable for me to allow God's house to be used in such a manner. Why should it be different for God's money? If my minister was using the Lord's money at the race track (as a previous poster used the example) I would not try to act like he had sinned against me. I agree, he did not make any bets with my money. HOWEVER, as I saw that he was using the Lord's money in a way inconsistant with God's will, I wouldn't give him anymore. I firmly believe this is what the Lord would want. I extend this theory further. Why is it so necessary for churches to build enormous spires into the sky with multiple stained glass windows and gold crosses adorning everything? Is it really to the glory of God? What would glorify God more, a gold cross, or one of his children who is no longer hungry, sick, in poverty, etc. To this end, when my church decides to spend $5,000 on a new set of chimes to be put in the rear of the sanctuary, it is time for me to start giving to a soup kitchen. I cannot believe that feeding the hungry is contrary to God's purpose. > >[When I was calling on members of our church, one indicated that in a > >former church (not Presbyterian), the amount of money given by each > >member was published. --clh] > This practice is also repulsive, and against what Jesus said in Matthew 6. I agree with what you are saying. However, I think it is more important that we look at the reason we are to give in secret. It is so we do not allow our pride to interfere with our relationship with God. If I know that I gave more than Mr. X last month, I could easily go to Mr. Y and say that I loved the lord more than Mr. X. This is clearly sinning. To avoid the temptation, it is better that we give/pray/fast/etc. in secret. This idea goes along with what I said above. Couldn't one church say that it glorified God more because it had a taller building? Or more stained glass? Why don't we eliminate the temptation altogether? Peace, -Jon Anderson
jjk18642@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (James J Kristofer) (04/06/91)
[This is a continuation of the discussion of giving in secret. --clh] I don't believe that pray/fast/etc. should necessarily be lumped in with the giving issue. Giving, as mentioned above, should be from the heart. A personalthing between you and God. Pray can help many of those around you. Fasting together as a group can also be very encouraging. These are ways of sharing and uplifting God's glory with one another. I don't think I should not pray at a restaurant just because I think it will make someone else feel less right about themselves. Kris
Jeremy.Gibbons@prg.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Gibbons) (04/14/91)
jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Johann) writes: > Why is it so necessary for churches to build enormous spires into the sky > with multiple stained glass windows and gold crosses adorning everything? > Is it really to the glory of God? What would glorify God more, a gold > cross, or one of his children who is no longer hungry, sick, in poverty, > etc. To this end, when my church decides to spend $5,000 on a new set of > chimes to be put in the rear of the sanctuary, it is time for me to start > giving to a soup kitchen. I cannot believe that feeding the hungry is > contrary to God's purpose. While Jesus was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came in with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, `Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor.' And they rebuked her harshly. `Leave her alone', said Jesus. `Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.' (Mark 14:3-9, New International Version) Nobody ever said Christianity was easy. Jeremy *-----------------------------------------------------------------------* | Jeremy Gibbons (jg@uk.ac.oxford.prg) Funky Monkey Multimedia Corp | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (04/17/91)
In article <Apr.5.03.48.15.1991.9831@athos.rutgers.edu> jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Johann) writes: > In article #something-or-other, johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu writes: >> Does this mean that ministers, who should encourage people to give joyfully, >> won't abuse the money you give? No, but the giving action is between you and >> God; he knows your attitude. > >I agree with your main argument that unwillingness to give is a transgression >between God and the individual. In this sense, I have no right to interfere. >However, don't I have an obligation to be sure that God's money is being >used in accordance with his will? If I knew my church was going to rent >our basement to a group of Satan worshippers so they could carry on their >rituals, I couldn't be silent. It would be unthinkable for me to allow >God's house to be used in such a manner. Why should it be different for >God's money? > Be careful here. God never made provision in the Old Testament to which Levites the Israelites were to give their money, the good ones or the evil ones. I believe it's the same way in the Catholic Church. Galatians 6:6 says that we should fellowship (i.e., koinonia, or joint participation in material things, at least) with the one who taught us. Another passage (in Corintians) says that the preacher of the Gospel is the NT equivalent of the Priests and Levites in the OT. We give to the one who taught us, no matter his moral state. Again, that's between him and God. Even if he is secretly a satan-worshiper. (Might I add that a satan-worshiper would probably not make a good teacher/preacher?) If you are taught, then you owe, just as if you eat at a restaurant, you pay where you ate; don't pay the local McDonald's instead. If you want to eat at the local McDonald's, go ahead, next time. If God, by his grace, shows you that the one who taught you God's word doesn't live up to it himself (But who among us does? I would say that it would be good to be slow in making this judgment.), then go ahead and find a new storehouse (i.e., teacher of God's word; see Mal. 3:10), **after** you give the tithes you owe to the one you found out to be immoral. Hopefully you will be able to find a better teacher/preacher/storehouse. > >If my minister was using the Lord's money at the race track (as a previous >poster used the example) I would not try to act like he had sinned against >me. I agree, he did not make any bets with my money. HOWEVER, as I saw >that he was using the Lord's money in a way inconsistant with God's will, >I wouldn't give him anymore. I firmly believe this is what the Lord would >want. > I want to reiterate: don't be too hasty in your judgment. The so-called 'immoral' teacher of the Word may be the best teacher you'll be able to find. Preachers are human, and contrary to popular Christian opinion, they are to be held to the same moral standard as we who listen to and learn from them. > >. . ., when my church decides to spend >$5,000 on a new set of chimes to be put in the rear of the sanctuary, it is >time for me to start giving to a soup kitchen. I cannot believe that feeding >the hungry is contrary to God's purpose. > It's not, but feeding the hungry with the money that God claims as his own (i.e., the tithes and firstfruits) is. > Peace, > -Jon Anderson John Warren "Let that tape keep rolling, Let your faith keep growing, Let your light keep shining, Be careful what you sign." -Larry Norman
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (04/17/91)
In article <Apr.6.01.22.05.1991.3294@athos.rutgers.edu> jjk18642@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (James J Kristofer) writes: >I don't think I should not pray at a restaurant just because I think it >will make someone else feel less right about themselves. What better 'streetcorner' is there than a restaurant? I suppose the answer is TV. I admire your attitude of not worrying what other people think (I'm not being flip), but Jesus didn't say: "Don't pray on the streetcorner, unless you feel that you're not doing it with the motive of showing people how spiritual you are." He said: "Don't pray on the streetcorner." I don't mean to sound fundamentalist about this issue, but I think Jesus knew human nature pretty well and knew how our motives could get corrupted, our attention diverted, etc. So he said to do it in a closet. (My apparent 'fundamentalism' ends here: I don't actually pray in a closet.) John Warren "He'll come down make you feel alright, Like a thief in the middle of the night... In the middle of the ... night!" -- Larry Norman
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/18/91)
In article <Apr.13.22.46.08.1991.11758@athos.rutgers.edu> Jeremy.Gibbons@prg.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Gibbons) writes: >... >Nobody ever said Christianity was easy. Well, except maybe Jesus... Matthew 11:28-30 28 "Come to me, all of you who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit; and you will find rest. 30 For the yoke I will give you is easy, and the load I will put on you is light. (TEV) A few years ago I sat discussing church business with my pastor and my District Superintendant (Like a mini-bishop in the UMC). In my frustration I joked "Do you ever wonder if we picked up the wrong yoke?" The more time goes by, the more seriously I take that joke. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
chappell@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Glenn Chappell) (04/18/91)
In article <Apr.17.02.47.50.1991.8595@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >I admire your attitude of not worrying what other people think (I'm not >being flip), but Jesus didn't say: "Don't pray on the streetcorner, >unless you feel that you're not doing it with the motive of showing people >how spiritual you are." He said: "Don't pray on the streetcorner." Certainly. I agree that we should look at the specific things Jesus said, and not just the general ideas behind them. However, when doing so, we shouldn't ignore those "general ideas". The verse about "praying on the streetcorner" (Matt. 6:5) is in a section about doing things only to be seen (6:1 - 6:18). In His introduction, He says, "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them...." (Matt 6:1 - NIV). Yet, earlier in the same talk, He says, "...let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matt 5:16 - NIV). Now, isn't this just a wonderful contrast? Chap. 6 says not to do good things just because people are watching, and Chap. 5 says not to do them only when people aren't watching. We are to do what is right, regardless of whether people are watching or not. And *that* is an awfully good principle to apply when praying in a restaurant (tempered with a few thoughts from Romans 14 & 1 Corinthians 10....) Finally, I might add that Jesus did not say, "Don't pray on the street corner." He said "...do not be like the hypocrites, [who] love to pray ... on the street corners to be seen by men." "How are we not to be like them?" is a good question to think about. GGC <><
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (04/21/91)
In article <Apr.17.02.47.06.1991.8580@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >>. . ., when my church decides to spend >>$5,000 on a new set of chimes to be put in the rear of the sanctuary, it is >>time for me to start giving to a soup kitchen. I cannot believe that feeding >>the hungry is contrary to God's purpose. > >It's not, but feeding the hungry with the money that God claims as his own >(i.e., the tithes and firstfruits) is. I have some difficulty with this argument. God does not benefit from those chimes -- God does not benefit from *anything* we do with (or without) money. If the chimes inspire us and others to worship, then they are probably a good investment of God's money. But if I recall correctly, there are very few passages in which God tells us to raise splendid buildings and promote the arts. There are many passages in which God tells us to feed the hungry and comfort the afflicted. I conclude that the proper chief use of God's money is in doing the latter. Of course the support of the local church is important, but as a means to one of two ends: feeding the hungry and bringing our souls closer to God. As gifts to God -- well, the very idea of a gift to God is absurd. There is nothing that God needs from us. CAR
3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Raphael Martelles) (04/21/91)
In article <Apr.17.02.47.50.1991.8595@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >I admire your attitude of not worrying what other people think (I'm not >being flip), but Jesus didn't say: "Don't pray on the streetcorner, >unless you feel that you're not doing it with the motive of showing people >how spiritual you are." He said: "Don't pray on the streetcorner." "Don't pray on the streetcorner as the hypocrites do." Matthew 6:5a. They did it with the intention of showing off... We don't. Besides, I like to pray, and thanking the Lord for my food is pretty much a reflexive act by now. So, if I pray, but not as a hypocrite does, isn't that correct? One more question for everyone.... What do you think about defending yourself if someone tries to attack you? Is that wrong if you do it with minimal force? Or should you just let yourself be hurt, and maybe killed? Isn't that like committing suicide? What do you all think? I'm confused, or at least hunting for an answer. My Martial Art future depends on this.... :-) Raph -- Raphael Dominic Martelles <>< 3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu IX0YE "Christianity isn't a crutch, it's a stretcher. You can't even hobble into heaven!" [The meaning of things can change as the culture changes. In a culture where everyone is religious, praying in public can be showing off. In a culture where the majority are not religious, praying in public can be a way of witnessing. My guess is that Christ was concerned about discouraging the first, but not the second. --clh]
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/23/91)
In article <Apr.21.01.28.24.1991.19147@athos.rutgers.edu> credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) writes: >I conclude that the proper chief use of God's money is in doing the latter. >Of course the support of the local church is important, but as a means to >one of two ends: feeding the hungry and bringing our souls closer to God. >As gifts to God -- well, the very idea of a gift to God is absurd. >There is nothing that God needs from us. Indeed... Mark 7:6-13 (See also Matthew 15:3-9) 6 Jesus answered them, "How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: `These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. 7 It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach man-made rules as though they were my laws. 8 "You put aside God's command and obey the teachings of men." 9 And Jesus continued, "You have a clever way of rejecting God's law in order to uphold your own teaching. 10 For Moses commanded, `Respect your father and your mother,' and, `Whoever curses his father or his mother is to be put to death.' 11 But you teach that if a person has something he could use to help his father or mother, but says, `This is Corban' (which means, it belongs to God), 12 he is excused from helping his father or mother. 13 In this way the teaching you pass on to others cancels out the word of God. And there are many other things like this that you do. (TEV) I would say that if God leads you to give your money to a soup kitchen rather than to the instalation of chimes, give your money to the soup kitchen. Or better yet, since the church wants to install chimes to the glory of God, suggest that the church *start* a soup kitchen. (In the church building!) How much more glory will be given to God through the good works of that congregation then by the melodious sound of bells? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton