[soc.religion.christian] Can the Righteous be Saved?

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/18/91)

A new Christian, reading from the Gospels, commented  that  he  was  finding
that  Jesus  did  not  come  to  save  everyone.   Is it possible that Jesus
salvation is selective and not for everyone?

     "I have not come to call the righteous, but  sinners,  to  repentance."
     Mat 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32

Paul writes a similar message about Christians who seem to think their  sal-
vation has been secured:

     "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness,  forbearance,  and  long
     suffering,  not  knowing  that  the goodness of God leads you to repen-
     tance? But in accordance with your hardness and your  impenitent  heart
     you  are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and reve-
     lation of the righteous judgment of God, "--  Rom 2:4,5  (NKJ)

     "For even if I made you sorry with my  letter,  I  do  not  regret  it;
     though  I  did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you
     sorry, though only for a while.  Now I rejoice, not that you were  made
     sorry,  but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry
     in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.   For
     godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, not to be regretted; but
     the sorrow of the world produces death. "  --  2 Cor 7:8-10  (NKJ)

Let us return to what Jesus had to say:

     ""I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over  one
     sinner  who  repents  than  over  ninety-nine  just persons who need no
     repentance."  --  Luke 15:7  (NKJ)

     ""As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.  Therefore  be  zealous  and
     repent."  --  Rev 3:19  (NKJ)

It is human nature to want to feel secured for eternity.  We want to be able
to relax and coast into heaven.  But does this bring us to a condition simi-
lar to those who rejected Jesus, those conceited in  their  legalism  and/or
their high credentials from the lineage of Abraham and seats of power in the
Sanhedrin?  Jesus can save the sinner who comes to Him in  repentance.   But
how  can He save the self-righteous?  Does it matter if our self- righteous-
ness comes from an attitude of law keeping or from an attitude that the  law
no  longer  applies?   Either way we can convince ourselves that we are ade-
quately righteous, no longer repentant sinners and no longer in need of sal-
vation.   The  text says that Jesus is our Savior from sin.  He did not come
to save us in our sins.  So let us be repentant always.  And  remember  that
repentance includes a turning away from our sin, nor mere apology.

Paul sites himself as an example of the thinking of his day.  He  felt  that
he  was  a  perfect  example of law keeping, keeping the law blameless (Phil
3:6). But then he met Jesus and discovered his need of repentance, discover-
ing  that  he fell far short of the perfection of God's law.  And Paul said,
"I die daily", which is another way of saying that he came to the  cross  in
an  attitude of repentance every single day.  Is not the cross the symbol of
Justification?  Regardless of the Biblical assurance of salvation for  those
who  follow  Jesus, we are admonished to plead our need to be Justified each
day.  Repentance is not something to exercise once for salvations  sake  and
then to rest assured that such a one time repentance has eternally saved us.
Jesus clearly stated - I came to save sinners and not the righteous  -  that
is  He  came to save those who recognize that they are sinners and not those
who proclaim that they are now secured.

It is not the law that saves us.  Law keeping can  doom  people  to  feeling
smugly  self  righteous.    But  rather the law is intended to bring us to a
knowledge of our sin and so to repentance.  After what Jesus said about  the
law  it  should  be  clear  that  nobody should feel smug about law keeping.
Without the law there is no knowledge of sin and so no need  of  repentance.
And  law  keeping,  the old way, can make us just as smug as Paul was before
Jesus.  So, the law of God, especially illuminated by Jesus, serves  a  very
clear purpose, to point out our need of repentance.  If we become smug about
law keeping, or we proclaim the law done away with, is not  the  result  the
same -- self righteousness?  The same result being that we conclude there is
nothing for which to repent.  The law cannot save us because its purpose  is
to  point out our sin, it is a mirror before us.  But the law can indirectly
save us in the sense that when we discover our sin,  we  turn  to  Jesus  in
repentance.   So,  the law saved no one, except that they turn in repentance
to Jesus.  So, the law does play a vital role in salvation, even  though  it
has no saving power of its own.

A science museum offered a beautiful example:  A large white easel  with  an
unraveled  hemp  rope  down  the middle.  A small note said to lift the rope
aside.  It was instantly obvious that one side was grey and the other white.
With  the  rope between us, the grey and even the black of sin looks just as
white as the other side.  Self righteousness is thinking that we  are  white
enough  and  in no need of repentance.  But if we ask Him to, the scales are
lifted from our eyes and we see ourselves as grey and black with sin.   That
is  the  Christian paradox.  Without Him we feel self righteous.  As we draw
closer to Him, our sins become increasingly repulsive and so much  the  less
attractive and tarnished tinsel.  With His purity illuminating our sin, that
sin becomes something we are all the more eager to  purge  from  our  lives.
Then  victory,  in  Christ, becomes achievable.  But then do these victories
finally lead us to the day when we  can  feel  smugly  self-righteous?   No!
Besides,  without Him there would have been no victory, so why feel securely
smug.

Let me site one of many Bible examples of Bible heros:

     "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job;  and  that  man
     was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. "--
     Job 1:1  (NKJ)

     "Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust  and  ashes.""   --   Job
     42:6 (NKJ)

While the Bible finds Job to be a righteous man,  Job  says  no  such  thing
about  himself.    And  many other examples can readily be sited from the OT
and NT. The Bible does not offer affirmative examples  of  proclaiming  "I'm
saved".  Rather  quite  the  opposite.   It  is  repentance  that  the Bible
examples.  Yes, there is security in Christ, in a knowledge that He  is  our
Shepherd  and near at hand to save us and with us always.  But that does not
prompt us to attitudes of self-righteousness.  Rather, the closeness reveals
our  lack of self-righteousness and our even greater need of Him.  When peo-
ple came to Jesus asking about salvation, did Jesus ever turn to of them and
say -- rest assured, you are one of the saved?  He pointed out to each their
different need and offered them the living water that they could drink every
day.

Now consider what  Jesus  said  about  the  self  righteous  Pharisee  (Luke
18:11,12)  and  the repentant Publican (Luke 18:13,14).  Would it be fair to
rewrite that story into the following parable?

     And the Christian went about proclaiming at every opportunity,  with  a
     loud  voice  -  "I'm  saved,  I'm  saved,  Praise the Lord" - while the
     Jehovah's Witness knelt before Jehovah God, hardly daring to  look  up,
     saying "God be merciful to me a sinner".

Is what I just illustrated a heresy?  Is it heresy to say that a  JW  repen-
tant before God is more savable than a Christian smug in self-righteousness?
No, this is not heresey.  Read Romans chapter 2.

The evangelists of today have devised all sorts of ways by  which  to  sooth
their  followers into believing that all is secured eternally for salvation.
Full churches are seen as more important than repentance.  The need to  come
to  the  cross in humble repentance is seen as resting in the past.  A sense
of secured righteousness is their proclamation.  Have we become  modern  day
Pharisees  -  having invented new ways by which to feel smug and secure?  In
those days it was the publican, or tax collector,  who  was  seen  as  being
hopelessly  misfit for salvation.  Does the Jehovah's Witness of today serve
as a modern parallel?  Would Jesus today turn to those who hand  out  salva-
tion  right  and  left and say what He said about the Pharisee?  Would Jesus
today turn to a repentant JW and say what He  said  about  the  Publican?  I
think that the parallels are too close to be cast quickly aside.

Remember that Nineveh was a city famous for its idolatry:

     ""The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this  generation
     and  condemn  it,  for  they   repented  at the preaching of Jonah; and
     indeed a greater than Jonah is here."  --  Luke 11:32  (NKJ)

If anyone was ignorant of the proper formalities of salvation it  was  those
Ninevites.   But  they became repentant.  Do we acknowledge each day that we
are sinners and turn to Christ and the cross?  Jesus came to save  repentant
sinners.   He  cannot  save  the self righteous until they realize that what
they thought was white, is a horrifying grey painted over the deepest black.
We discover the blackness of sin when we set aside our smug self- righteous-
ness and place our lives in stark comparison beside His perfection.

Let us turn to the cross in repentance every day and acknowledge our need as
sinners.  We need our Savior today.

Dave (David E. Buxton)

emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) (04/25/91)

In article <Apr.18.03.27.02.1991.7359@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes:

>     ""I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over  one
>     sinner  who  repents  than  over  ninety-nine  just persons who need no
>     repentance."  --  Luke 15:7  (NKJ)
>
>     ""As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.  Therefore  be  zealous  and
>     repent."  --  Rev 3:19  (NKJ)
>
>It is human nature to want to feel secured for eternity.  We want to be able
>to relax and coast into heaven.  But does this bring us to a condition simi-
>lar to those who rejected Jesus, those conceited in  their  legalism  and/or
>their high credentials from the lineage of Abraham and seats of power in the
>Sanhedrin?  Jesus can save the sinner who comes to Him in  repentance.   But
>how  can He save the self-righteous?

It seems to me the point that David is making is that a saved person should
also be a repentant person.  I really agree with this and the Bible is clear
on it as David has shown.

One thing that I would like to share is that having eternal security does
not mean that one is conceited and self-righteous.  I guess the question
is: Is it God's will for us to have eternal security?  I would dare to say
yes:

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so
 that you may know that you have eternal life."		(1 John 5:13)

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
 Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name."
							(John 20:31)

And what peace His Word brings.  Many a believer struggle with the 
insecurity of their salvation.  Yet God has called us to peace.

>to save us in our sins.  So let us be repentant always.  And  remember  that
>repentance includes a turning away from our sin, nor mere apology.

Amen.  And let us not repent out of fear, but out of love for God.  Our
eternal security through faith in Jesus allows us that priveledge.

>Jesus clearly stated - I came to save sinners and not the righteous  -  that
>is  He  came to save those who recognize that they are sinners and not those
>who proclaim that they are now secured.

The good news is that He came to make the sinners righteous.  Having eternal
security yet recognizing and being thankful for the undeserved gift of life 
is good!  How pleasant it is to recognize that one does not measure up to
God's requirement yet rejoice in praise to Him because:

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are justified
 freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
						(Romans 3:23-24)
Jesus Himself said,

"However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that
 your names are written in heaven."		(Luke 10:20)

When a believer and follower of Jesus is unsure of his/her eternal destiny,
it only creates anxiety and fear rendering the believer useless and bound
to continually try to earn God's acceptance.  Yet the glorious truth of our
salvation in Jesus says:

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all
 men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that
 brings life for all men."		(Romans 5:18)

>It is not the law that saves us.  Law keeping can  doom  people  to  feeling
>smugly  self  righteous.    But  rather the law is intended to bring us to a
>knowledge of our sin and so to repentance.  

Yes, it is a continual reminder of our fallen state and compels us to Jesus
where there is free grace through faith in Him.

>Now consider what  Jesus  said  about  the  self  righteous  Pharisee  (Luke
>18:11,12)  and  the repentant Publican (Luke 18:13,14).  Would it be fair to
>rewrite that story into the following parable?
>
>     And the Christian went about proclaiming at every opportunity,  with  a
>     loud  voice  -  "I'm  saved,  I'm  saved,  Praise the Lord" - while the
>     Jehovah's Witness knelt before Jehovah God, hardly daring to  look  up,
>     saying "God be merciful to me a sinner".

I think you have to look at the motive.  If you read this parable, the
Pharisee was proclaiming that he was better than the publican because
of his works.  A Christian who proclaims "I'm saved, I'm saved", may be
doing so out of joy testifying of the miracle that God has done.  It may
be an expression of gratitude, rejoicing that his name is written in heaven.
And in your rewrite, this Christian is not judging anyone.  I would say
that both are justified in God's eyes!

>The evangelists of today have devised all sorts of ways by  which  to  sooth
>their  followers into believing that all is secured eternally for salvation.
>Full churches are seen as more important than repentance.  The need to  come
>to  the  cross in humble repentance is seen as resting in the past.  A sense
>of secured righteousness is their proclamation.

I would dare say that eternal security and repentance are not mutually 
exclusive.  If repentance was based soley on insecurity, people would
be repenting out of fear.  Yet the Bible says that:

"God's kindness leads you towards repentance" (Romans 2:4).

A son does not repent for his wronging because his parents threaten to
disown him.  Our God is a nuturing Father who disciplines His children,
yet loves them and shows them kindness.  In view of God's mercy, let us
repent of our wrongdoing in respect of His awesome holiness.

>Let us turn to the cross in repentance every day and acknowledge our need as
>sinners.  We need our Savior today.
>
>Dave (David E. Buxton)

Oh how we need Jesus!  A hearty amen to the above statement.  And let us also
know that He accepts our repentance and clothes us in the robe of His
righteousness.  And let the Spirit compel us onto obedience and good works
of love and mercy toward others!

Glory to God in the highest,

John Emery
emery@tc.fluke.COM