lindborg@mirror.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) (04/21/91)
Hi folks... I'm currently taking a history of early Christian thought in Rome and Greece and I've been plowing through some of the writings of Origen of Alexandria. Although he had some rather strange ideas (ie reincarnation, different domains of the Logos and Holy Spirit etc...) that got him labeled a heretic later, he presented some interesting ideas. In particular, he states that all rational beings (in which he includes demons and even Satan himself) have the ability to acknowledge truth and, hence, can repent and be saved. He argues that any thinking being that starts from God can always be reunited with their creator. Satan is a thinking being and is even described as being very clever and tricky. Additionally, Satan must have come from God for God is (supposedly) the cause of all in the cosmos. So, in effect, he argues that Satan and all his demons can still be saved and return to heaven. He even goes so far as to criticize Candidus for his 'orthodox' belief that Satan cannot be saved because it ran parallel to the idea of predestination. Indeed, if Satan is a necessary element in the end times (he is, I believe, to be subdued and destroyed at some point) then it would stand to reason that he cannot be saved. This would sound like Satan has no choice in the matter and has no hope of being saved. Origen argued that Revelation was mere imagery and that Satan can, indeed, be saved. Extrapolating then, we can expand that argument somewhat. If Satan can be saved, why not the other souls languishing in hell? In this model, then, hell would not be a permanent state, but a place which you could escape from over the course of time (he did stipulate that in some cases the time required for this transition would be quite a long period... but when were talking eternity any finite time constraint would be an improvement). Not that it really matters to me in the big scheme of things, I just thought it was kind of interesting and wanted to know what you all thought. Jeff Lindborg "Right here, right now... there is not other place I want to be.... it feels good just to be alive!" -Faith no More [I'm not sure I understand the question. It's a standard Christian belief that anyone can be saved if they repent. I don't think most people expect Satan to repent, but I don't think it would be regarded as heretical to say that he could be saved if he did. Is there something to this question that I'm not seeing? The only odd issue I see here is the claim that Rev. somehow prevents Satan from repenting. One of the standard questions is whether the fact that God can predict what you will do makes you unfree. It seems to me that the existence of a prophecy such as Rev. doesn't really make things any worse. The issue of freedom already exists in principle if you believe that God can forsee actions perfectly. Different groups deal with this differently, depending upon their views on predestination. --clh]
pbh@jake.tmc.edu (Patrick Haggood) (04/22/91)
I was just about to argue that Satan could be saved. I was going to arge that the only thing keeping Satan from being saved was Satan. He made the mistake, he went to hell. His pride is the only thing keeping him from reconciling himself to God. Writings in revelations do not constrain him; revelation is simply the written record of what is going to happen. God knows everying, and knows that Satan won't reconcile, not that he can't. He simply won't. That's kinda what makes him Satan. Then, on reflection, I realized that we humans can get pretty philosophical about things we know nothing about. The bible doesn't mention *any* iota about angels and their futures, outlooks, whatever. The bible is for us, as was Jesus. For humans. Jesus' mission wasn't to save Satan or his horde. Just us. If there is a salvation plan for Satan, it obviously doesn't concern us otherwise He'd mention it. Personally, I don't think there is one because we are "above angels", not by our own value but in the value that God places in us. The universe was created for our sakes and is waiting on us to "get right" (that's really a paraphrase of scripture, but I can't remember the book). There's been a lot of debate on this issue; I remember one about how angels didn't have free will, only humans, and that's what made us special. Then I wondered how Satan could have messed up if he didn't have free will..... The bible is thick enough just trying to tell humans how to get back to God. Think how big it would be if it tried to explain God's entire creation and Why Things Are, too. Origen argued that Revelation was mere imagery and that Satan >can, indeed, be saved. > > Extrapolating then, we can expand that argument somewhat. If Satan >can be saved, why not the other souls languishing in hell? In this >model, then, hell would not be a permanent state, but a place which >you could escape from over the course of time (he did stipulate that >in some cases the time required for this transition would be quite a >long period... but when were talking eternity any finite time >constraint would be an improvement). > > Not that it really matters to me in the big scheme of things, I >just thought it was kind of interesting and wanted to know what you >all thought. -- Patrick B. Haggood Wayne STate University Detroit, MI Physics - Class of 1991 (-2?)
jloucks@uts.amdahl.com (Jim Loucks) (04/25/91)
From article <Apr.22.04.12.59.1991.13730@athos.rutgers.edu>, by pbh@jake.tmc.edu (Patrick Haggood): > I was just about to argue that Satan could be saved. I was going to > arge that the only thing keeping Satan from being saved was Satan. He > made the mistake, he went to hell. His pride is the only thing keeping > him from reconciling himself to God. ... > Then, on reflection, I realized that we humans can get pretty > philosophical about things we know nothing about. The bible doesn't > mention *any* iota about angels and their futures, outlooks, whatever. I was listening to a tape on spiritual warfare by Dr. Ed Murphy a few weeks ago. One of the tapes told of a time when Dr. Murphy was in the middle of a deliverance, when he decided to question the demon. The conversation went something like this: Murphy: What do you call yourself? Demon : I have taken on the name "Confusion" (or something similar) Murphy: Why are you torturing this woman? Demon : She invited us in. (probably slowly and without realizing it) Murphy: How many of there are you? Demon : There are three of us (I think that's what he said) Murhpy: Why don't you turn from your sins and repent to God? Demon : There has been no provision for us. For mankind there is a provision but not for us. We can't change and we won't change. Murphy: Why did you turn against God? Demon : We were deceived. Murhpy: Who deceived you? Demon : Our master (Satan) deceived us. He said we would have power over you and be able to rule and torture you at will. But you have power over us. We were deceived. Murphy: I command you to go where ever Jesus sends you. Where are you now? Demon : I am at the feet of Jesus. (or something like that) I realize the above isn't Scriptural, but I find it interesting. I don't believe Satan or his followers (demons) can be saved. Dr. Murphy's Spiritual Warfare package is an eye opener and nothing to casually listen to. I am in the process of documenting an evil supernaturalistic attack I experienced while studying this topic. If you must "dabble" in this area, please get a considerable amount of prayer support prior to studying. -- Jim Loucks {sun, pyramid, uunet}!amdahl!jloucks