[soc.religion.christian] Faith in secret

dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (04/21/91)

In article <Apr.17.02.47.50.1991.8595@athos.rutgers.edu>, johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes:
> In article <Apr.6.01.22.05.1991.3294@athos.rutgers.edu> jjk18642@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (James J Kristofer) writes:
>>I don't think I should not pray at a restaurant just because I think it
>>will make someone else feel less right about themselves.
 
> What better 'streetcorner' is there than a restaurant?  I suppose the
> answer is TV.
 
> I admire your attitude of not worrying what other people think (I'm not
> being flip), but Jesus didn't say:  "Don't pray on the streetcorner,
> unless you feel that you're not doing it with the motive of showing people
> how spiritual you are."  He said:  "Don't pray on the streetcorner."
 
> I don't mean to sound fundamentalist about this issue, but I think Jesus knew 
> human nature pretty well and knew how our motives could get corrupted, our
> attention diverted, etc.  So he said to do it in a closet.  (My apparent
> 'fundamentalism' ends here:  I don't actually pray in a closet.)

It's interesting to contrast Matthew Chapter 6 (prayer,
almsgiving, and fasting should be secret) to Matthew Chapter 5
("You are the light of the world... your light must shine before
others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your
heavenly father.")

Back the Monday before Ash Wednesday, it fell to my lot to do the
opening prayer for the parish's young adult community and since
Mt 6 is the reading for Ash Wednesday, I read that and the Simile
of light from 5 closing with the question, "And you--how do *you*
live both teachings?" Christianity is a wonderful religion
(wonderful in both the common sense of "rather nice" and also in
the sense of "full of wonder"). There are so many apparent
contradictions in teachings etcetera. We are called to walk a
rather narrow line. For example, anyone who tells you that
salvation is solely through works is missing the point just as
much as someone who tells you it's solely through faith. The two
are too interdependent to be separated like that. We're called in
the case of the sermon on the mount to a very difficult position:
we must glorify God the Father, but we must be careful not to do
things in a manner that causes the glory to go to ourselves
instead. And it's very difficult, but Jesus never said following
Him would be easy. 

I don't have a fish on the back of my car for two reasons. One is
that I personally tend to get a very negative impression of those
people who do have their aluminum fish on the hood partly because
of reasons related to the second reason: what does advertising
that one is a Christian on the back of one's car do for God? Am I
to imagine that someone noting that I let them ahead of me in
L.A. traffic will also notice the fish and decide that they
should look into all this Jesus stuff? It seems to me more likely
that someone seeing that will get the impression that the driver
of the car is some self-righteous pompous ___ regardless of what
I do. It seems to me that this sort of advertising of one's faith
is more a self-promotion than a God promotion. Sadly, getting
back the first reason, my experience tends to bear this out. 

-dh

Don Hosek                  
dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu  
Quixote Digital Typography 
714-625-0147               

3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Raphael Martelles) (04/22/91)

In article <Apr.21.01.47.12.1991.19369@athos.rutgers.edu> dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) writes:
>I don't have a fish on the back of my car for two reasons. One is
>that I personally tend to get a very negative impression of those
>people who do have their aluminum fish on the hood partly because
>of reasons related to the second reason: what does advertising
>that one is a Christian on the back of one's car do for God? Am I
>to imagine that someone noting that I let them ahead of me in
>L.A. traffic will also notice the fish and decide that they
>should look into all this Jesus stuff? It seems to me more likely
>that someone seeing that will get the impression that the driver
>of the car is some self-righteous pompous ___ regardless of what
>I do. It seems to me that this sort of advertising of one's faith
>is more a self-promotion than a God promotion. Sadly, getting
>back the first reason, my experience tends to bear this out. 

As a Christian, I've been helped many times by seeing fishes on the back's
of people's cars!  There have been times, driving home from school or
something, that my mind is burdened by finals, tests, etc., and seeing that
aluminum fish all of the sudden breaks the hold that I allowed the world to 
get.  I start praying, etc., and remember the history of the church that
Christ established.  Somehow, those fishes always appear at just the right
moment to help me remember who's in control.  The Lord has funny ways of 
reminding me to turn to Him, and those fishes are one of them.

I understand what you're saying, and it has held true in a few situations.
I'm certainly not asking you to put a fish on your car :-)  I've had people
ask me what the fish means, though, and it's a great opportunity to witness!
(I put them up everywhere--college blackboards, y'know.)  But the reason I 
put up fishes (draw them, actually) is not for me, or to advertise my faith,
since many people, Christians included, have no idea what the fish means!
I put them up so that Christians who do know what it means might bring their
thoughts back to our Lord in the midst of so much worldy influence.  Kind of
a reminder.  A cross gets erased by teachers, especially since many of them
seem to think that the absolute values that Christians acknowledge aren't in
effect anymore.  They don't like my "opinion" that everyone is accountable, and
that the ONLY way to be saved is not by "doing whatever each person thinks is
right," but by accepting Jesus.  So, they erase my crosses.  *snif*  But,
They don't know what the fish is!  So, they don't mess with it.  And maybe,
some Christian student somewhere might make a stand for Jesus because they
saw the fish.  Or they might take the chance to witness that they would've let
slip by.  Remember--in the early church, the fish was used to identify with
other followers of The Way, not to advertise faith.  We proclaim the cross,
not the fish.  The fish is for Christians, to remind them that each one of
them sitting through that psychology class isn't alone, to remind them that
in spite of all the "scientific" findings that show that Christianity produces
a guilt complex, that there are no absolute values, that God is dead, that
morals are just a product of society and "need to change as society changes," 
in spite of all that, the fish reminds them that God is very much alive, 
that there *are* absolute values and that we *are* accountable to God, not our-
selves, that Jesus rose from the dead and destroyed sin, even the sin 
that society preaches as "fun."  The fish reminds them of forgiveness and of
strength in the face of persecution and ridicule, especially the ridicule of
your basic psychology professor when you are brass enough to suggest that God
is the solution to self-esteem problems, not a "hobby you are good at."  :-)

That's the reason I put up fishes.  

In Christ,
Raph

-- 
Raphael Dominic Martelles                           <>< 
3at@sage.cc.purdue.edu                             IX0YE 
"Christianity isn't a crutch, it's a stretcher.
                  You can't even hobble into heaven!"  

jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Johann) (04/25/91)

In article <Apr.21.01.47.12.1991.19369@athos.rutgers.edu>, dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) writes:
> It's interesting to contrast Matthew Chapter 6 (prayer,
> almsgiving, and fasting should be secret) to Matthew Chapter 5
> ("You are the light of the world... your light must shine before
> others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your
> heavenly father.")   ...  We're called in
> the case of the sermon on the mount to a very difficult position:
> we must glorify God the Father, but we must be careful not to do
> things in a manner that causes the glory to go to ourselves
> instead. And it's very difficult, but Jesus never said following
> Him would be easy. 

I have a tendency to agree with you on this point.  It seems that Christ
feels that curbing our sinful actions is important, but curbing our sinful
intentions is even more important. (see Matt 5:21-22,27-28)

Personally, I think it is best if we look at the passage on showing 
your religion before men closely.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand
and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by
men.  Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.  But when you pray,
go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret;
and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."  (Matt 6:5-6 RSV)

In this passage, I do not believe that Christ is condemning the hypocrites for
their actions. Instead, he calls them hypocrites because their true intention
is not to communicate with God, but to be "seen by men".  It would be hard to
justify calling someone a hypocrite simply because they pray in a 
synagogue.

As far as praying in a restaurant goes, if the intention of our prayers is to
be seen by men in order to show off our righteousness, then we have sinned.
However, if we seek no "reward" for our prayers, only the glorification of 
God, then how have we sinned?  Jesus did not say do not pray, he only said
don't pray so that your prayers with earn you glory on Earth.

> I don't have a fish on the back of my car for two reasons. One is
> that I personally tend to get a very negative impression of those
> people who do have their aluminum fish on the hood partly because
> of reasons related to the second reason: what does advertising
> that one is a Christian on the back of one's car do for God? Am I
> to imagine that someone noting that I let them ahead of me in
> L.A. traffic will also notice the fish and decide that they
> should look into all this Jesus stuff? It seems to me more likely
> that someone seeing that will get the impression that the driver
> of the car is some self-righteous pompous ___ regardless of what
> I do. It seems to me that this sort of advertising of one's faith
> is more a self-promotion than a God promotion. Sadly, getting
> back the first reason, my experience tends to bear this out. 

Well, that could be.  It is hard for me to say with certainty whether a person
puts an aluminum fish on their car to be "seen by men" or to glorify God.  
I cannot make a judgement on them.  If they have received their reward than
so be it.  If God will someday reward them for their aluminum fish than so
much the better.  This is for the Lord to decide.  

I have, however, found one passage which has somewhat guided me through
this issue.  Paul writes this concerning others preaching the gospel 
during his imprisonment:

"Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will.
The latter do it our of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the
gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but
thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment.  What then?  Only that in every way,
whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice."
(Philippians 1:15-18 RSV)

-Jon Anderson