[soc.religion.christian] MANY will say, Lord, Lord

ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) (04/18/91)

	"Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
	kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father
	Who is in the heavens.
	Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in
	Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do 
	many works of power?
	And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from
	Me, workers of lawlessness."
		-- Matthew 7:21-23


The Bible tell us of a very serious truth. Although someone may have
eternal life, he may still be rejected from the kingdom of the heavens. One
verse that speaks of this is Matthew 7:21. The persons in this verse all
address the Lord as "Lord". The Lord will make a distinction between those
disciples who can enter into the kingdom of the heavens and those who
cannot. The Lord clearly shows us here that the condition for entering the
kingdom of the heavens is doing the will of God. Although some have been
saved and have called Him Lord, and although they have have also done some
works, without doing the will of God they nevertheless cannot enter into
the kingdom of the heavens. The reward of the kingdom of the heavens is
based on the obedience of man. If one is not faithful while living on the
earth, though he will not loose eternal life, he will loose the kingdom of
the heavens. When the time comes for the heavens to rule, that is, when the
Lord Jesus comes the second time, some will not be able to enter the
kingdom, but will lose it instead.

First, the Lord mentioned this matter in verse 21. Following this, in
verses 22 and 23, He explained the matter to us in the way of a prophecy.
There will be many genuinely saved believers, not only one or two, who will
not do the will of God.  "Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was
it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons,
and in Your name did many works of power? And the I will declare to them: I
never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." Here the Lord
Jesus tell us what will happen before the judgment seat. He says, "In that
day." Hence, this does not refer to today, but to the future. There are
many who work hard but do not see the light of God in their lives. When the
time of the judgment seat comes, and when Christ beings to judge from the
house of God, these Christians will have light for the first time. They
will see that they are off in their standing and in their living.

In that day many will say before the Lord, "Was it not in Your name that we
prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many
works of power?" Within one sentence, the phrase "in Your name" is
mentioned three times. This proves that these ones are the Lord's. The fact
that they say, "Lord, Lord," proves that their standing is that of a
Christian. Not only do they say that they prophesy, cast out demons, and do
many works of power; they do these in the Lord's name. The mentioning of
"in Your name" three times tells us of their relationship with the Lord.

Amazingly, the Lord tells them, "And then I will declare to them: I never
knew you." Because many do not understand the meaning of these words, they
think that these surely are not saved ones. But if these are not saved
ones, then the Lord's word here would be meaningless. Matthew 7 is a
conclusion to the sermon on the mount following the Lord's word on the
Beatitudes. These words on the mount were spoken by the Lord Jesus to the
disciples. After the Lord went up to the mountain, His disciples came
before Him, and He opened His mouth and taught them from chapter five to
chapter seven.

The Lord Jesus said that they should not call Him Lord with their mouth
only. If they call Him Lord, they should do the will of the Father. Even if
they have the outward works of prophesying, casting out demons, and doing
works of power, these works must not replace the Father's will. Doing the
Father's will is one thing, whereas prophesying, casting out demons, and
doing works of power are another thing altogether. Sometimes, one can
prophesy, cast out demons, and do works of power without doing the will of
the Father. We must remember that we should not only call Him Lord with our
mouth, but we should do the Father's will in our walk as well. If the Lord
were speaking about unsaved persons, this word would lose its meaning
altogether, for if these are not saved ones, it would not matter much for
the disciples to listen or not to listen to His word. The disciples may say
that His word is for the unsaved ones, but they are the saved ones;
therefore whether or not they do the Father's will, the Lord cannot deny
knowing them. If this were the case, then all the unsaved ones would be
those who do not do the will of God, and all the saved ones would be those
who do the will of God. This would take away the highest meaning of these
words. 

The Lord Jesus must be warning the saved ones here by speaking about the
saved ones. He cannot be warning the saved ones by speaking about the
unsaved ones. Suppose one has a maid and two daughters, and suppose this
one were to say to the younger daughter, "Do you see that maid? She is not
born of me; I am beating her. You have to be obedient today. If you are not
obedient, I will punish you in the same way that I am punishing her." Is
this word logical? A maid is not born of the family. If she becomes
disobedient, she may be beaten. But the daughter of the family is not a
maid. One cannot apply the way to deal with a maid to a daughter. The
mother ought to say, "Last night I punished your sister because she was
disobedient. Now be careful. If you are not obedient, I will punish you as
well." The mother must take the sister as an example. The maid cannot be
used for a comparison. There is no reason for the Lord to use the unsaved
ones as an example to show the disciples that they ought to do God's will.
If He did, the disciples would rise up and say, "They are the unsaved ones,
but we are the saved ones." If they were to say this, no one could say
anything further.

What the Lord Jesus is saying is this: "Many people are God's children.
They call Me 'Lord' and they have done a lot of works. But they are
nevertheless shut outside the kingdom. For this reason you must be careful.
You have to do the will of God." Only in this way will the disciples know
that though they do many works, if they do not do the will of God, they
will receive the same punishment. If He were speaking to the unsaved ones,
there would no longer be the piercing element to His word. The Lord was
warning us that only those who do the will of God can enter the kingdom. If
one were to rely on his own work to come before God, the Lord Jesus would
tell him, "I do not know you."

Here is another example. Suppose a judge's son drives carelessly and hits
another car. He is taken by the police to the court for a hearing. The
judge would ask, "Young man, what is your name? How old are you? Where do
you live?" The son down at the stand may think, "You should know all these
things better than I do." He may answer the first few questions. But after
a while, he may shout to the father, "Father, don't you know me?" What
should the judge do then? He may bang his gavel and say, "I do not know you.
In my home, I know you. But in the court, I never knew you." If one sees
the mater of the kingdom, he will realize that in the kingdom, it is not a
matter of whether or not a person is saved and whether or not he is the
child of God; what really matters is his work after becoming a believer.
Suppose after you are saved, you are very zealous. Although you have not
carried out God's will, you nevertheless prophesy, cast out demons, and do
works of power in the Lord's name. If you come before the Lord asking to be
admitted into the kingdom because of these unprincipled works, the Lord
will say that He never knew you.

Why did the Lord say, "I never knew you?" The next sentence explains:
"Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." Please remember that the Lord
did not tell them to depart from eternal life. In the original Greek, the
meaning of workers of lawlessness is people who do not follow the rules,
keep the law, or abide by the regulations. In the eyes of God, to do evil
does not mean only to do bad things. It does not matter how much one has
done; as long as he has not hearkened to God's demand, His judgment, and
His sovereign arrangements, it is evil in God's eyes. If this word
"lawlessness" were translated as "evil", as some versions have done, many
would have the ground to argue. The problem here is not a matter of doing
evil, but a matter of being unprincipled. What are the principles? The
principles are God's word. But what is God's word? God's word is God's
will. If you are not doing the will of God, no matter what you do, the Lord
Jesus would say that you are lawless. Those who do things according to
their own self will have no part in the kingdom of the heavens.

My purpose in writing these things is to show the importance of a
Christian's works. The Bible shows us clearly that after a person believes
in the Lord, though he will never lose eternal life, he may lose his place
and glory in the kingdom. If we do not do the will of God, but work
according to the our own will instead, we will be shut out of the kingdom.
We may think that prophesying, casting out demons, and doing works of power
are most important because if we think that if we can do these things, we
will be a marvelous person. But these things can never replace the will of
God. All those who have never learned not to work for God are not worthy to
work for God. Those who do not know how to stop their own work surely know
nothing about God's will. Only those who know the will of God can stop
working. God wants us first to obey his will and then to work.  The more
one knows about the will of the Lord, the more he will learn not to work
carelessly. Thus, there is a big difference between working and doing the
will of God. Today, we may appreciate the works and may be interested in
prophesying, casting out demons, and doing works of power. But one day,
many will be awakened.

I apologize for the length of this, but I could not logically break it into
two parts.

-----
Robert W. Johnson
Computer center, The University of Turku, Turku Finland
robert@kontu.utu.fi 	(InterNet)
robert@firien.bitnet    (BITNET)

The preceeding is my opinion and may not express the opinion of my employer
and furthermore has nothing to do with my employment. 

news@newcastle.ac.uk (04/21/91)

   I agree with a great deal that you are saying here, but I think an
emphasis needs placing on the fact that "you are saved by God's Grace",
and not by works of your own (as you say, Eph 2v8)
When you decide to follow God's will you must first ask and accept His
forgiveness, this decision must be accompanied by action. This is not to
say that you will go away and do everything according to God's will from
that moment on, neither does God expect us to. I constantly fail Him
from day to day but I am most certainly assured of my place in His
kingdom, I can say that I know my Lord - not half as well as I'd like
but I am slow to learn. 
   I have just studied Colossians and in chapter 1v8 Paul explains our
reconciliation to God, he says that the condition this are "if you
continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope
held out in the gospel." It is our direction, not how much progress we make.
 
>The fact
>that they say, "Lord, Lord," proves that their standing is that of a
>Christian.

I'm not entirely sure that it does, many people call to God in times of
trouble, indeed God may heed their call...

>Although you have not
>carried out God's will, you nevertheless prophesy, cast out demons, and >do
>works of power in the Lord's name. If you come before the Lord asking >to be
>admitted into the kingdom because of these unprincipled works, the Lord
>will say that He never knew you.

I believe that everyone has aspects of God, as we were all made in his
image. I can see God in my non-christian friends, they may already have
some of the 'Fruits of the Spirit'. A christian however may attain these
extra gifts from God for the gain of His kingdom, but I do not believe
that someone who does not know God could have these gifts and be using
them. There are saddly christians that are not assured of their
salvation and they need to be assured - "not moved from the hope held
out in the gospel."

I apologise if I seem to know everything, this is only my interpretation
of the Word, I hope that I have agreed with what you have already written.
--

Nick

parsons@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Scott Parish) (04/21/91)

I have deleted some portions of Mr. Johnson's original posting you may
wish to reread his original posting to this group.

ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes:

>	"Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
>	kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father
>	Who is in the heavens.
>	Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in
>	Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do 
>	many works of power?
>	And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from
>	Me, workers of lawlessness."
>		-- Matthew 7:21-23


>Although someone may have eternal life, he may still be rejected from the 
>kingdom of the heavens. 

I must beg to differ on this point, are you saying that eternal life and
entering heaven are not synonomous?  If they are not in fact the same,
then you have just divided the afterlife into 3 divisions--heaven, hell,
and somewhere where eternal life exsists, but is not heaven.  I do not
understand how I can have eternal life, and yet not live with Christ
in heaven. 

>The persons in this verse all address the Lord as "Lord". The Lord will 
>make a distinction between those disciples who can enter into the kingdom 
>of the heavens and those who cannot.
>The Lord clearly shows us here that the condition for entering the
>kingdom of the heavens is doing the will of God. Although some have been
>saved and have called Him Lord, and although they have have also done some
>works, without doing the will of God they nevertheless cannot enter into
>the kingdom of the heavens. The reward of the kingdom of the heavens is
>based on the obedience of man. If one is not faithful while living on the
>earth, though he will not loose eternal life, he will loose the kingdom of
>the heavens. When the time comes for the heavens to rule, that is, when the
>Lord Jesus comes the second time, some will not be able to enter the
>kingdom, but will lose it instead.

This is second point I must comment on.  I really think you should look
back to Matthew 7:15-20, which gives some context as to what Christ
was talking about.  In verse 15 Christ says, 'Beware of false prophets,
which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening
wolves.'  Could Christ be including these and all other self-righteous
persons in verse 21?  Re-read verse 21, it says 'Not everyone' not
'Not every SAVED person'  If you read this verse in the context in which
I speak you would see that Christ is speaking of people who profess to
know him.  These are the kind of people who say 'Jesus, oh yeah, I believe.'
But they never 'walk the walk' or 'talk the talk'.  He speaks of the
self righteous, those who say 'I am good, therefore God will be good to
me.'

>Amazingly, the Lord tells them, "And then I will declare to them: I never
>knew you." Because many do not understand the meaning of these words, they
>think that these surely are not saved ones. But if these are not saved
>ones, then the Lord's word here would be meaningless.

There are 4 places (there may be others, I just glanced around) where this 
phrase of denial is uttered by Christ: Matt 7:23, Matt 25:12, Luke 13:25
and again in verse 26.  In Matt 25:1-13, Christ tells the Parable of the
Ten Virgins.  In Luke 13:23-30, a disciple asks the Lord, 'Are there
few that be saved?'  And the Christ gives a little speach about the
master of the house shutting the door of the house and having people
beat on it to get in, but are refused entrance.  

Anyway, my point being, that Christ is saying that these people THINK they 
are saved.  These people THINK they have a right to enter into the wedding 
supper, because the PROFESSED to be part of the wedding company.  But in 
fact they did not practice what they professed.  In the case of the foolish 
virgins, they were not prepared with oil in their lamps when the bridegroom 
came.  In Luke the people knocking at the door were depending on the 
Master of the house's good memory of them.  Either case illustrates
why people think should be granted entrance to the Kingdom, but fall short.
These are the same people who say 'I lived a good life.  I'll go to 
heaven, because God likes people who lived good lives.'

>"Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." Please remember that the Lord
>did not tell them to depart from eternal life. 

No, He did not explicitly say depart from eternal life, but through the
othere parables where this same phrase is uttered, you can pretty much
figure out there is no part of heaven open to these people.  And as
far as I can tell the possiblilty of eternal life with Christ.

>The Bible shows us clearly that after a person believes in the Lord, 
>though he will never lose eternal life, he may lose his place
>and glory in the kingdom. 

Again, show me how eternal life and the Kingdom of God are not in someway
synonymous.

>-----
>Robert W. Johnson

--Scott Parish            parsons@matt.ksu.ksu.edu

billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (04/25/91)

	I do not see how, after the Lord has allowed the Holy Spirit into
your heart after you repent and believe, the Lord would say 'I never
knew you'. One of the promises that Jesus gives you when you become a
christian is this :-

	'Who shall confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of
	our Lord Jesus Christ.' 1 Corinthias 1:8 NASB

	Likewise:

	'Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good 
	work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.'
	Philippians 1:6 KJV

	And also:

	'The righteous is an everlasting foundation' Proverbs 10:25

	If you truly believe AND repent and become a christian, acknowledging
that Jesus is your saviour, then these promises are yours. I am sure the 
'I don't know you' response.' refers to people that try to deceive the Lord,
by saying they are Christians. They may well be able to do miraculous
things, such as casting out demons and the like, but I warn you! Don't
use this as a judge of a christian person, the devil is in the healing
business too! Those people may do these miraculous things in 'the Lords
name', but at the end of all things, the truth will be revealed.

	As for everlasting life not being the same as heaven. I am sure
Jesus is saddened that you think his ONE GREAT SACRIFICE was insufficient
to get you to heaven. Oh well.

	'He is always watching, never sleeping. Jehovah himself is caring
for you!' Psalm 34:7


	See you, Drew.