gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet (04/21/91)
Does anybody know where the use of the name Sabaoth for Jehovah
came from?
And I also, where can one get a hold of non-Biblical information on the
origins of Christianity and Judaism?
I have heard that the Jews were originally polytheists but that when
Yahwists priests gained political control, they effectively got rid of the
worship of the other gods. I was also curious about the extent to which
similar things happened in Christianity. From what I gather, there were many
"heresies" and variants of Christianity around during the first Century.
People had widely different interpretations concerning who Christ was and what
his mission on Earth consisted of. Were certain heresies eliminated for
political reasons? Is it conceivable that the "true" Christian doctrine
would not be very popular (after all, the Bible calls it the narrow path)
and would be suppressed while "false" doctrines would eventually be adopted
by the mainstream?
I really don't know but it does not seem that going to the Bible would
be the best way to find out. Could anyone point me towards a good history
of the early "heretics" in Christianity or Jewish polytheism? I would really
appreciate it.
thanks,
-Gilberto Simpson
"For the water will engulf us if we do not dare to tread"
-De La Soul
[The Jerusalem Bible footnote for 1 Sam 1:3 explains Yahweh Sabaoth as
follows: "The interpretation 'Yahweh of hosts, armies, the
battle-lines, etc' (be these the armies of Israel, or the armies of
heaven, stars, angels and cosmic forces at large) is not certain. The
title appears here for the first time and is connected with the cult
at Shiloh; the expression 'Yahweh Sabaoth, whose throne is on the
winged creatures' occurs for the first time at 4:4, in connection with
the moving of the ark from Shiloh. The title remained associated with
the ritual of the ark and passed into usage in Jerusalem, once the ark
had been installed there. 2 S 6:2,18, 7:8,27. It occurs in the Ps.
and was adopted by the major prophets (excluding Ezekiel) and by the
post-exilic prophets (particularly Zechariah)."
I don't think there is any non-Biblical information on the origins of
Judaism, except archaelogical results. As far as I know evidence for
the progress of monotheism in Israel is primarily Biblical. Certainly
the Bible is very clear about the struggles involved in getting Israel
to worship only the Lord. Consider all the stories in the historical
books about kings who worshipped other gods, accounts of people like
Elijah who fought with priests of other gods, etc. The polemics of
the prophets also make it clear that plenty of people in Israel
worshipped other gods. I don't know of any accounts from the other
side remaining. Most of our ideas on this subject are conjecture,
based on the Bible, with some archaeological evidence about religion
of the period in general.
As far as I know, it's not until we get to a period near that of the
NT that we start finding documents left by heterodox groups. Of
course by this time the issue was not worship of one God. While there
were plenty of groups in Palestine that worshipped other gods, the
Jews were strongly monotheistic. However there were a number of
different ways of worship, opinions about eschatology, how to deal
with the Romans, etc. With the Dead Sea Scrolls and a few other
findings, scholars know at least something about the range of Judaism
in that period.
We have at least some evidence about heterdox Christian movements.
E.g. the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library gives us a lot of
information about the Gnostics, who appear to have been the major
early heresy. We have histories of the church, letters, and other
documents that provide reasonable evidence about later doctrinal
disputes. The evidence isn't perfect, because often we don't have
works written by the heretics, but simply extracts quoted by their
opponents. But those provide some evidence, and now and then a work
does survive. Most books on church history will give a summary of
those controversies. For details on the Gnostics I recommend looking
at "The Nag Hammadi Library", edited by James Robinson. This contains
the texts of many of the documents, and introductions that give some
context. A common reference is Pagels' book "The Gnostic Gospels",
but I'm less enthusiastic. It's a polemical book. It concentrates
more on condemning the orthodox church for persecuting the Gnostics
than giving any actual information.
I'm not sure what you mean by political. Certainly the Gnostics and
the orthodox had very different ideas of authority in the Church. The
orthodox valued continuity with the original apostles, and chose books
that seemed to embody history passed down that way. The Gnostics
valued creative vision, and did not have quite the drive to build
strong hierarchical organizations. The differences thus involved many
things, from the authority of the hierarchy to the reliability of
historical traditions versus private visions. It's a matter of
opinion which is true or false, though it seems if you want a
historical account of Jesus, the orthodox church is the better place
to look.
Aside from information on the Gnostics, you might find "The NT
Apocrypha", a 2 vol. set by Hennecke, interesting. It gives a
sampling of non-Biblical documents, with scholarly discussions about
them. It is from before the Nag Hammadi documents became available
however. For information on Judaism before monotheism became
standard, you'd want to consult a text on the history of Israel.
Although I've read some I don't have any references handy. Sorry.
--clh]jmgreen@pilot.njin.net (Jim Green) (04/25/91)
I have been thinking about the recent posting of Gilberto Simpson: |From: gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet |Subject: Is Christianity Christian? |Date: 21 Apr 91 05:27:43 GMT |Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA. | |....................I was also curious about the extent to which [heretical] |things happened in Christianity. From what I gather, there were many |"heresies" and variants of Christianity around during the first Century. |People had widely different interpretations concerning who Christ was and what |his mission on Earth consisted of. Were certain heresies eliminated for |political reasons? Is it conceivable that the "true" Christian doctrine |would not be very popular (after all, the Bible calls it the narrow path) |and would be suppressed while "false" doctrines would eventually be adopted |by the mainstream? I guess the answer to your Subject question (Is Christianity Christian?) is that in the main no it is not. But this shouldn't come as the surprise it seems to amoungst most so called christians. It was repeatedly prophesied by Jesus that the Church which he established was to disolve. The apostles all seem to have assumed that this would be the fate of the primitive church. The pre-Nicene Fathers (eg Ignatius, Origen, Clement, and Tertullian) experienced, fretted, fought and finally accepted the inevitable. Yes, heresies, were both eliminated AND promoted for political reasons; it was taught by the apostles that the "true" christian doctrine would not be very popular -- so unpopular that the members of the church would lose their lives; and , yes, false doctrines were adopted by the the mainstream and the truth supressed. Agustine struggled his entire life to piece together and make sense of the shambles that was left after Nicaea, but by then the Lord's Church was pretty much dead. The situation continued variably from bad to worse to total corruption over the next 1000 years, when Thomas Aquinas tried to put things right, sort of. Then, of course, came the reformation -- such as it was. The early period is covered in the History writen by Eusebius of Caesarea. Many modern treatments are around, not the least of which is the eight volume series by Schaff ("History of the Christian Church"...vol 1 covers Apoltolic Christianity 1-100ad...vol 2 covers Ante-Nicene Christianity 100-200ad all at ~$25 a pop) Of course the best sourses are found in the Patrologiae Latinae in 221 vols!, Patrologiae Graecae in 161 vols!, and Patrologia Orientalis, but these won't be found in many community libraries! Jim Green
conan@ragu.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (04/29/91)
In article <Apr.24.23.14.36.1991.10960@athos.rutgers.edu> jmgreen@pilot.njin.net (Jim Green) writes: >I guess the answer to your Subject question (Is Christianity Christian?) >is that in the main no it is not. ... >The pre-Nicene Fathers (eg Ignatius, Origen, Clement, and Tertullian) >experienced, fretted, fought and finally accepted the inevitable. Yes, >heresies, were both eliminated AND promoted for political reasons... >Agustine struggled his entire life to piece together and make sense of the >shambles that was left after Nicaea, but by then the Lord's Church was pretty >much dead. ... Then, of course, came the reformation -- such as it was. Could you clarify and support this line of reasoning? While I do not claim to be an expert in patristics, this does not fit in well with what little I know about the period you are talking about. Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO