davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/21/91)
I just received some email from a Jewish friend. He offered several paragraphs that I thought were quite stunning. We were talking about the Covenants and Priesthoods. He was explaining about Hebrew names, telling me what happens when a Gentile converts to Judaism. He says it is quite popular to say that a convert to Judaism is being born again. This being born again into Judaism means that from then on they are considered to be of the lineage of Abraham, that Abraham is now their father, Abraham being considered the first Jew. So, if this was a popular semantic among Jews when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, then what did Jesus mean when He used the semantic? To become a Jew you were seen as being born again, born into the lineage of Abraham. To be born again, as Jesus put it, meant to be "born from above", which is a legitimate translation of the Greek. To non Jews, Jesus spoke of becoming of the lineage of Abraham. Paul speaks of becoming joint heirs of the promises. To Jews Jesus spoke of another re-birth, a re-birth into Christianity. So in Christianity, as spiritual Jews we are born into Abraham and also born into Christ. In a sense we have two fathers, the father of Old Covenant promises and the father of New Covenant promises. Dave (David E. Buxton)
why@kpc.com (Will Hyde) (04/22/91)
In article <Apr.21.00.34.08.1991.18838@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: > > This being born again into Judaism means that from >then on they are considered to be of the lineage of Abraham, that >Abraham is now their father, Abraham being considered the first Jew. > -- Quoting (with permission) from COMING IN SECOND (Justin Case): "...In Iraq, who once was Assyria, Mesopotamia, Babylonia and Sumer ... where it all began. They say life began there, and civilization began there. The Bible scholars say the Garden of Eden was there, in the swampy plain between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates, where now stands an enormous oil refinery; and the scholars of Science say the birth of civilization took place there. "It's the heart of creation; to Jew, to Muslim, to Christian. "Abraham, the common patriarch of all three religions, came from there. To the Jew and the Christian, Abraham's first-born son was Isaac; to the Muslim, his first-born was Ishmael. They part with his first offspring, but Abraham, the first Jew, was common seed of both Jesus and Mohammed..." -- If that is accurate, then Abraham is the great grand-daddy of them all, and no 'conversion' is necessary. Islam recognizes Jesus as a 'prophet of God' equal to Mohammed, does it not...? -- _________________________________________________________________________ ... why@kpc.com ...LADY LUCK IS A FICKLE BITCH, AND HER NAME IS KARMA ... ... -** --- * *** -* *----* - *** *- -*-- -* --- - **** ** -* --* ...
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (04/23/91)
In article <Apr.22.04.04.56.1991.13653@athos.rutgers.edu>, why@kpc.com (Will Hyde) writes: > > "Abraham, the common patriarch of all three religions, came from > there. To the Jew and the Christian, Abraham's first-born son > was Isaac; Christians and Jews acknowledge that Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn son, but that Isaac was the child from whom Jesus was to be descended. > > Islam recognizes Jesus as a 'prophet of God' equal to Mohammed, does > it not...? Moslems believe that Mohammed surpasses all other prophets, including their "prophetic" version of Jesus. Note that Moslems do not have the same stories/beliefs regarding Jesus that Christians have.
davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/23/91)
> . . . . > "Abraham, the common patriarch of all three religions, came from > there. To the Jew and the Christian, Abraham's first-born son > was Isaac; to the Muslim, his first-born was Ishmael. They part > with his first offspring, but Abraham, the first Jew, was common > seed of both Jesus and Mohammed..." > > -- > > If that is accurate, then Abraham is the great grand-daddy of them > all, and no 'conversion' is necessary. > > Islam recognizes Jesus as a 'prophet of God' equal to Mohammed, does > it not...? Jesus talking to Nicodemus: Nicodemus, reflecting the theology of his day, is convinced that being born of Abraham, and especially being of the Sanhedrin, that his salvation is assured. But Jesus says that such a birth of Abraham is not enough. Jesus said to Nicodemus that he needs to be born "from above", that Nicodemus needed to be born into Christianity, which is the birth of a new heart, a change of heart, a heart of true repentance and a turning to Jesus Christ. Jesus statement was that being born of Abraham was not enough. But what if we are not born of Abraham, what of the Old Covenant promises? Elsewhere it is said that being born of Christianity means we become joint heirs of the new promises as well as of the old promises. When we are "born again", we are born of Abraham and Jesus. If we are already born of Abraham, then we still need to be born of Jesus. Dave (David E. Buxton)
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (04/25/91)
In article <Apr.22.04.04.56.1991.13653@athos.rutgers.edu> why@kpc.com (Will Hyde) writes: >In article <Apr.21.00.34.08.1991.18838@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: >> >> This being born again into Judaism means that from >>then on they are considered to be of the lineage of Abraham, that >>Abraham is now their father, Abraham being considered the first Jew. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I would leave it up to the Jews to decide who the first Jew was, but this implies that that ALL the Arabs (who are also decended from Avram) are also Jews. Some sources claim that Jacob (after he was "renamed" Israel) was the first Jew. Abraham is the "father of many nations" but I would not necessarily call him the first Jew.
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (04/29/91)
In article <Apr.24.23.45.44.1991.11224@athos.rutgers.edu> billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes: >Some sources claim that Jacob (after he was "renamed" >Israel) was the first Jew. Abraham is the "father of many nations" >but I would not necessarily call him the first Jew. The word 'Jew' is a shortening of Judah. It was first used in the Bible in Kings (or was that Chronicles?) to refer to the people of the southern kingdom of Judah (who included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and some of Levi), distinguishing them from the people of the northern kingdom of Israel (who included probably others of Levi and the other 10 tribes; remember that Joseph counts as two tribes); it was first used after the kingdom of Israel split into Judah and Israel in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam. A couple hundred years later the northern kingdom of Israel was taken into bondage by Assyria and have never been heard from again (or have they?), and the southern kingdom were the ancestors of the people we call Jews. Abraham was not a Jew, Jacob was not a Jew, Joseph was not a Jew, David was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew, Zerubbabel was a Jew, etc. John Warren