kroth@uunet.uu.net (Ken Roth) (04/25/91)
>irani@brahms.udel.edu (Jennifer Irani) writes: >>could someone please answer a question that I hear quite frequently. In >>the Gospels we are told that Jesus' body was missing from the tomb. He had >>risen. However, many poeple seem to ask, how can Christians assume that >>......And yes, Jesus appeared to people after His death, but then, so is >>Elvis. Could anyone please give some logical answers. It does matter, this >>is what the Christian faith is founded on--that Christ didn't just die, but >>rose! > >The work "In the Light of Truth", the Grail Message, by Abd-ru-shin does in >fact give logical answers about this critical point. Just as a point of starting (also known as a starting point8-) I would admit that I have never read, nor even heard of, this text. And from what I read following, I can say it seems to be a rationalization of something we cannot know, just what we can try to reason. But continue... >It explains that the Laws of Creation, which also manifest as the physical >laws, or laws of nature, are necessarily perfect, having issued forth from >the Perfect GOD. OK, here is that first problem I have. But actually, I will agree with one thing (that you mention three paragraphs down). God CANNOT change the laws that govern the universe, at least not while working in this universe. That is why Christ had to die, for sin MUST be atoned for. Even GOD cannot get around this, because he created the rule. BUT, how does the paragraph above even romotely rule out what you say it does below? >Think about it now: that which is perfect cannot be subject to change, or >else it could not have been *perfect* from the beginning! Well, in a manner of speaking, but technically this is mere conjecture. >Therefore, we are compelled to accept the conclusion that it was, is, and >always shall be IMPOSSIBLE for a PHYSICAL body to ascend into the SPIRITUAL >kingdom or realm. Simply impossible, otherwise there is no perfection in the >simple clear natural laws of Creation. This, though, makes absolutely NO sense, at least not following the previous two paragraphs. Where, in all of our sacred scriptures, does it say that a physical body is banned from heaven? There is no law that says the physical cannot transcend into the spiritual. How can it go the other way, with angels, who we think of as spirits, taking on physical bodies? >Yes, Jesus WAS seen by many following His death on the cross, but it was >NOT the physical body of Jesus which was seen. It was His spiritual body, >or better said, His soul, which naturally at that time still manifested >the wounds that He had so recently been forced to suffer. It was given >to those close to Jesus to be able to see and hear that which normally they >would not see and hear for the sake of strengthening their faith in Jesus >and the truth of His Message. Woah, sometimes I want to scream 'HERESY', but that sort of thing is not too popular today. This is an ancient heresy that was beat upon and crushed centuries ago. To be honest, I cannot remember its name right now but if anyone could help... Anyway, this CANNOT be backed by scriptue. The only evidence you have given is based upon laws of nature that do not exist. Here are a few quotes that speak of Christ's BODY: (yes, if you wish I can supply the greek. Some people try to say 'But what does the GREEK say?' As something of a side point, most of the time when someone says 'But if you look into the greek' they are lying through their teeth, or at least are making ill use of something they know little of) Luke 24:39 'Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! TOUCH ME AND SEE; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE I HAVE' (emphasis mine) Luke 24:41b 'Do you have anything here to eat?' (His flesh hungered) And the clincher... John 20:27 'Then he said to Thomas "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.' HOW would it have helped Thomas to believe if he felt nothing there, just a spirit? Not at all, for they believed in the spirits of the dead roaming around. (At least among the commoners). >Mark Sandrock >-- >BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services >Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801 Ken Roth :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: kroth@wheaton.uucp | uunet!tellab5!wheaton!kroth || They call me Gryfalia "We believe, we believe, 'cause we felt it burning in our hearts"--77's "He is no fool who loses what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose." [It is certainly a heresy to say that Jesus did not actually die, that he didn't have a real body, or whatever. However what you quote from Mark was talking of Jesus' resurrected form. Note that Paul himself uses the term "spiritual body" to refer to Jesus' glorified body. I Cor 15:44 ff. Note specifically "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." I would be reluctant to identify the resurrection body with the soul, as Mark seems to, but this depends upon exactly what he means by soul. There is certainly a reaction among 20th Cent. theologians against identifying the Greek concept of immortality of the soul with the Christian resurrection of the body, but I'm not sure doing so has yet been formally pronounced a heresy. --clh]
sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) (04/29/91)
wheaton!kroth@uunet.uu.net (Ken Roth) writes: > .... But actually, I will agree with one >thing (that you mention three paragraphs down). God CANNOT change the laws >that govern the universe, at least not while working in this universe. That >is why Christ had to die, for sin MUST be atoned for. Even GOD cannot get >around this, because he created the rule. The law goes even further than what you have said, namely, that sin MUST be atoned for by the originator of the sin, and no one else can do this for us. (And please don't inform me that this is not supported by scripture, since I'll only have to cite Paul's statement concerning sowing and reaping.) >>Therefore, we are compelled to accept the conclusion that it was, is, and >>always shall be IMPOSSIBLE for a PHYSICAL body to ascend into the SPIRITUAL >>kingdom or realm. Simply impossible, otherwise there is no perfection in the >>simple clear natural laws of Creation. >This, though, makes absolutely NO sense, at least not following the previous >two paragraphs. Where, in all of our sacred scriptures, does it say that >a physical body is banned from heaven? There is no law that says the physical >cannot transcend into the spiritual. How can it go the other way, with >angels, who we think of as spirits, taking on physical bodies? It does make sense if we realize that nothing in Creation can go beyond its place of origin. A human being cannot become God; an animal cannot become human, and a physical object cannot become spiritual (or enter into the spiritual realm). Simple, clear, and immutable laws each and every one. As for "sacred scriptures", how about about this passage? Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can obtain no part in the kingdom of God, neither shall corruption have any part in incorruption. (I Cor 15:50) And how can it "go the other way" you ask? Very simple. That which is finer is capable of penetrating that which is courser, e.g., radio waves can pass through walls, and so forth. >>Yes, Jesus WAS seen by many following His death on the cross, but it was >>NOT the physical body of Jesus which was seen. It was His spiritual body, >>or better said, His soul, which naturally at that time still manifested >>the wounds that He had so recently been forced to suffer. It was given >>to those close to Jesus to be able to see and hear that which normally they >>would not see and hear for the sake of strengthening their faith in Jesus >>and the truth of His Message. >Woah, sometimes I want to scream 'HERESY', but that sort of thing is not >too popular today. This is an ancient heresy that was beat upon and >crushed centuries ago. To be honest, I cannot remember its name right now >but if anyone could help... (Looks like you screamed in spite of yourself.) But, yes, I'd be only too glad to help you out... :-) Some call it Gnosticism (from the Greek word for "knowledge"). 'HERESY' seems to derive from the word for "able to choose". Taken together they sound like "able to choose based on knowledge". Sounds dangerous to me! Yes, and the beating and crushing was known as the 'Holy Inquisition'. Always reminded me of the saying that "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent", but in this case I'd have to say "of the Darkness". >Anyway, this CANNOT be backed by scriptue. The only evidence you have given >is based upon laws of nature that do not exist. But these laws do exist and are immutable. The alternative would be chaos and imperfection. Plus, I quoted from I Cor 15:50 for your edification. >Here are a few quotes that speak of Christ's BODY: >Luke 24:39 'Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! TOUCH ME AND SEE; > a ghost does not have flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE I HAVE' > (emphasis mine) >Luke 24:41b 'Do you have anything here to eat?' (His flesh hungered) >And the clincher... >John 20:27 'Then he said to Thomas "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach > out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and > believe.' >HOW would it have helped Thomas to believe if he felt nothing there, just a >spirit? Not at all, for they believed in the spirits of the dead roaming >around. (At least among the commoners). These quotes don't prove anything. I can cite just as many which describe Jesus "appearing" and "vanishing" and failing to be recognized by those who had been closest to Him. (Indicating a non-physical body.) Also, because Jesus inquired about food does not mean "His flesh hungered". The full passage indicates, "But as they still disbelieved ..., he said, 'Have you anything here to eat?'" That sounds to me like Jesus ate in order to reassure the Disciples, rather than merely out of hunger. If it were His physical body would they all have needed so much convincing? Really? It is possible for human beings to see and feel non-physical things, since we also bear a non-physical body (soul) within ourselves. Like recognizes like. This does not normally occur for most people, but it does occur for some (clairvoyants, for instance), and happens often in Biblical stories. (People seeing angels, for example). In any case, Jesus had to reassure His people that it was truly Him, as they had always known Him, despite any difference in outward appearance. This was vital to strengthen them for what lay ahead. Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801