davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/25/91)
The following is a reply to John Every's post to s.r.c. dated March 20, 1991. What primarily prompts me to reply is that many others have offered similar arguments for the more popular view of what happens when we die. So I think that a more specific point by point response to this post is called for. > I would like to make some personal comments on the issue of what happens > after a believer dies. This is in response to David Buxton's postings > over the issue of whether the soul stays asleep until the resurrection > or is in the presence of Jesus immediately. First off, I don't want to > make it a big issue, because according to David, it would only seem like > a split second anyway! I would agree that in the sense sited there is little difference between going straight to heaven immediately on death, vs in the "twinkling of an eye" after total unconcious in the grave. One key concern about the tradi- tional view is that it opens the door so wide for many popular forms of Christian Spiritualism and even more blatantly occult spiritualism that is being found more and more in Christianity. If there is no conciousness in death, then spiritualism can be nothing more than meetings with a masquerad- ing Satan or one of his angels. Christians need to be clear on that. Perhaps John does agree with me on this point? I have talked to quite a number of people who grew up on "straight to heaven" theology, who have come to understand the Biblical state-of-the- dead. Over and over they basically say that they have come to intelectually accept that Biblically, they will lay unconcious in the grave. And that is what bothers them. It is a far more romantic view of salvation to think of going straight to heaven at the instant of death instead of laying cold in the grave. Instant heaven is idealism personified, but even though intel- lectually they know the grave is unconcious it is tough to think of laying there for even a split second. And so it is that rather than searching out the true Biblical answer, most people prefer what is far more emotionally palatable. As a relative of mine put it - "stop right there, don't say any more, I want to believe I'll be going straight to heaven, regardless of what the Bible says". > I just want to share the hope that a believer has after he dies physically! > Listen to the confidence David had: > > "...because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your > Holy One see decay." (Psalm 16:10) > > As David prophesied that God would raise Jesus from the dead, he also saw > that God would not abandon *him* in the grave! What a hope. Clearly, Jesus was not abandoned to the grave. Jesus was resurrected. David has the same hope of resurrection as we have - the resurrection after unconcious sleep. David said nothing about skipping the state of death in the grave. He simply expressed his faith that he would not be in the grave for eternity. Note also that the Hebrew 'sheol' translated to grave in Ps 16:10 is the same Hebrew word sometimes often translated 'hell'. 'sheol' (Hebrew) = 'hades' (Greek) = Biblical grave. Certainly the pagan philoso- phers such as Plato had something else in mind. The Bible speaks clearly: "So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David." (1 Ki 2:10) ""Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." -- Acts 2:29 (NKJ) David fell asleep and was buried with his fathers. (Acts 13:36) ""For David did not ascend into the heavens, . . . ." (Acts 2:34) > A psalmist writes it this way, speaking of the wicked: > > "Their tombs will remain their houses forever, their dwellings for endless > generations." (Psalm 49:11) > > But of the redeemed he says: > > "But God will redeem my life from the grave, He will surely take me to > Himself." (Psalm 49:15) At the resurrection we will be redeemed from the grave to be taken to be with God. We are not redeemed from the instant we die, but redeemed from the grave; so says the sited texts. Your life and my life will be restored to us on that great resurrection morning. That is indeed our blessed hope! > What joy and hope to know that He will take us to be with Him! Listen to > the hope Paul had: > > "For me to live is Christ, to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the > body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I > do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with > Christ, which is better by far;" (Philippians 1:21-23) > > Paul knew that he would immediately be with his precious Savior the moment > he stopped living in the body. He knew he wouldn't have to wait hundreds > and hundreds and hundreds of years lying dormant in the grave, for like the > Psalmist wrote, God would redeem his life from the grave also! Otherwise, > he won't be torn whether to stay in the body or depart from it. Consider the hardships that Paul endured. Years of prison, beatings, toil- ing from city to city. Knowing that the time in death would pass in an instant, he knew he could look forward to the resurrection and being with Jesus. I also find Paul eager to skip the state of death in an eager hope that Jesus will return in his lifetime. Let us examine some key texts to be clear of Paul's theology on what happens when we die: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trum- pet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immor- tality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"" -- 1 Cor 15:51-55 (NKJ) In that day, and not before then, Hades (the grave) must give up its sleep- ing saints to the resurrection. That is when the sting of death is swal- lowed up in victory. Paul does not offer victory over death before the resurrection. Our hope is not in going straight to heaven but in the resurrection: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." -- 1 Th 4:13-17 (NKJ) Clearly, "being with the Lord" comes at the 2nd Coming for those who are alive and at the resurrection of His 2nd Coming and for those who have died. Paul offers the assurance that just as Jesus was resurrected, so the sleep- ing saints will be resurrected to be taken by God to meet Jesus in the air. First the resurrected dead and then we all together will meet the Lord in the air and from then on we will always be with the Lord. That is when Paul anticipated his reward: "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:" -- 2 Tim 4:1 (NKJ) "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." -- 2 Tim 4:8 (NKJ) Really, it does not make sense to go straight to heaven before the judge- ment. Clearly Paul did not anticipate any reward, such as speeding to heaven when he died, but rather his reward would be at our Lord's return and the resurrection. And some more texts from Paul's writings worth considering: The Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies. (Rom 8:11; 2 Cor 4:14) "But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." " -- 1 Cor 2:9 (NKJ) "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, . . . . I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." -- Phil 3:10,11 (NKJ) Note that while Jesus has the power over death, Paul does not anticipate that power being exercised for him until the resurrection. And of course Paul's hope that he would still be alive on that day. > His hope is reiterated again when Paul said, "Therefore we are always > confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away > from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, > and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." > (2 Corinthians 5:6-8) In verses 1-4 Paul describes three states 1) earthly clothing or house; 2) the naked unclothed state of death; 3) clothed with the 'house' from heaven. Clearly Paul would like to skip the intermediate state of death as a naked- ness without the earthly or heavenly house/clothing. It is clear that Paul is eager to set this earthly life asside and to be with Jesus - his hope being that Jesus will return in his lifetime. Paul is not speaking of being with Jesus after a "twinkling of an eye" in the grave; rather to be still alive to see Jesus return, the dead raised and then his turn to rise to meet Jesus, without having seen death. That is my hope as well, that He will return in my lifetime. > The disciple Stephen saw the home of his spirit right before being stoned: > > "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory > of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he said, 'I > see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.' This was a vision of heaven. John the Revelator describes such visions and we do not say John's spirit was separating on its way to look at heaven. > "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' > Then he fell on his knees and cried out, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against > them.' When he had said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:55-56,59-60) > > Surely it was his body that fell asleep and his spirit that Jesus received > as he prayed. Jesus and Steven are quoting from Psalm 31:1,5; a popular Psalm for Jews to quote from. Found in a psalm David wrote for his director of music: "In You, O LORD, I put my trust; Let me never be ashamed; Deliver me in Your righteousness." -- Psa 31:1 (NKJ) "Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth. " -- Psa 31:5 (NKJ) David was very much alive when he wrote those words and hardly on his death bed. It is a psalm to quote while very much alive and trusting in the Lord. When Steven said it, he was was resigning his fate, placing his trust in the Lord. He was giving up the breath of life (pneuma = wind or breath) to the God who gave it in the first place. This is the breath of life that man has repeatedly failed to create in the test tube. A study of the words 'ruach' (Hebrew) and immortality as Plato would have it. Notions of immortality come (historically) from Babylon, the Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, etc. As used in the Bible immortality. > You know what is so awesome about it? Jesus Himself prayed this prayer while > on the earth: > > "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see > my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the > creation of the world." (John 17:25) > > Jesus WANTS us to be with Him. He wants us to see His glory. And the Father > has given Him that! That is why Jesus died and rose again, so He could be > Lord not only of those who are alive in Him, but also those who die in Him; Amen! Jesus does want us to see Him in His glory as promised. He told His disciples He was going to prepare a place for them and of course for us. He will return to take us home. " "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. "-- John 14:2,3 (NKJ) He will return and take us home. > "For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be > the Lord of both the dead and the living." (Romans 14:9) "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. . . . . . And the dead in Christ will rise first. " -- 1 Th 4:14, 16 (NKJ) " "and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemna- tion. "-- John 5:29 Jesus is the "Lord of the Sabbath" in the sense that He created the Sabbath at the end of creation week. Jesus is also the Lord of the dead and the living in that He can create for both the immortal bodies that we do not now posses. "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trum- pet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorrup- tible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immor- tality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"" -- 1 Cor 15:51-55 (NKJ) Clearly there is no immortality until it is given us at the 2nd Coming. There is no life after death until the resurrection. A spirit life after death would cancel the above scripture about mortality. > And that is where the dead are: with Jesus. And that is why it is written > that "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." > (1 Thessalonians 4:14). From the earthly perspective they are dead, but > they are actually alive: Consider the texts that say that God raised Jesus when Jesus was in the tomb (Acts 2:24; 10:40). 1 Thes 14 is in the midst of the 2nd Coming. Jesus is descending in the clouds with all the angels with Him. The dead are called from their graves and God brings them up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Th 4:13-17). If the dead were already with Jesus, then this scripture would say that Jesus descends with all the saints to meet those still alive upon this earth. There is absolutely no such scripture that says any such thing. 1 Th 4:13-17 says quite the opposite - that Jesus comes first to raise the dead and then to call those yet alive to meet Him. God raises them to meet Jesus in the air. The righteous dead are not already with Jesus. That is so abundantly crystal clear. > "have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God > of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but the > living." (Matthew 22:32) This is not about life after death but about the resurrection - Chapter 22: "The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, "-- Mat 22:23 (NKJ) " "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." " -- Mat 22:31,32 (NKJ) Concerning the resurrection - Jesus is making it clear to the Sadducees that God cannot be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob if He were to leave them eternally in the grave. He is making a clear statement about the resurrec- tion and nothing more. > Although to those on earth, these Patriarchs were dead, yet Jesus said that > that they were not dead but living. We get glimpses of this throughout the > Scriptures. For instance, in the Transfiguration of Jesus on the mount, > Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. In the Parable of the rich man and > Lazarus, Lazarus is seen by Abraham's side after he died. Moses was contended for (Jude 1:9), resurrected (possibly even translated like Enoch) and taken bodily to heaven. Elijah was translated bodily to heaven. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus has been dealt with in one of my posts to s.r.c. I'd be glad to email a copy to anyone requesting it. > Praise God for this blessed assurance of being with the One who gave His > life for us! Let's remember how much He loves us. > > John Emery > emery@tc.fluke.COM Amen brother, I too look forward to being with Jesus, the one who gave His life for us! Dave (David E. Buxton) From the Silicon RainForest of the Northwest
emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) (05/02/91)
The blessing of the Lord be upon you all! In my first article on
the topic of what happens to those who die, I touched on what I saw in
the Bible as good news to us all. Because of David Buxton's response
to this article, I would like to add some more comments on what I have
found in my own personal study on this topic.
David's main point of his discussion is that he believes that people,
believers and unbelievers, lie in an unconscious state of death (sleep)
in the grave until the resurrection. I believe this is the SDA belief
as a denomination. My comments are not necessarily part of my church
doctrine, but what I have found personally as I have studied the Bible.
The more I have searched in the Scripture on this topic, the more I have
seen the good news and hope of being with Jesus when I die.
As I consider this topic, I have found what the Bible defines as physical
death:
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
(James 2:26)
From this, it is clear that physical death is marked by the absence of the
spirit in the body. Therefore in order for our body to die, our spirit must
leave it. This is just like spiritual death. It marks the separation of
our spirit from God. Death is a separation. Physical: body separated
from spirit; Spiritual: spirit separated from God.
Then I ask myself, if the spirit leaves the body when it dies, where does
the spirit go? I have found the answer in the Bible when considering what
happened when our Lord died on the cross. Did His spirit remain in His
body when He died on the cross? Once again, it must be "no" because the
body is dead when the spirit is away from it according to the above
Scripture. And this is what the Scripture confirms:
"He was put to death in body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom
also He went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long
ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was
being built." (1 Peter 3:18-20)
It becomes so clear to me, that there *is* spirit consciousness after
death. These disobedient spirits of people from the days of Noah are
not in their bodies in the tomb, but in prison and conscious. They
would have to be conscious in order for Jesus to preach to them.
Peter goes on to say:
"For this is the reason that the gospel was preached even to those who
are now dead, so that they may be judged according to men in regard
to the body, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)
At the time of Jesus' death, He promised the repentant thief on the cross
that "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
(Luke 23:43). Therefore Jesus also went to a place called "paradise"
after His death, even more evidence of a place of consciousness where
the spirit may go after leaving the body according to James 2:26.
Jesus explained these two places of consciousness in Luke 16 when He
describes this paradise at Abraham's side where the beggar Lazarus
went and this spiritual "prison" where the rich man went. This
paradise must have been where king David went:
"Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of
David." (1 Kings 2:10)
When Jesus was resurrected, it was His body, not His spirit. The
Bible explains this when addressing the question of "what is the
resurrection from the dead":
"But someone may ask, 'How are the dead raised'?" (1 Corinthians 15:35)
Paul goes on to explain what the resurrection from the dead is:
"So it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown
perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is
raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is
sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:42-44)
The "body" is the key of the resurrection. For when the redeemed spirit
left the body, it became dead (James 2:26). Notice the above verse says
nothing about the unconscious spirit waking up. It is the body that is
dead and it is the body that is raised to life at the resurrection. An
example of this is seen at the death of Jesus:
"The tombs broke open and the *bodies* of many holy people who had died were
*raised to life*. They came out of their tombs, and after Jesus' resurrec-
tion, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
(Matthew 27:52-53)
In this resurrection, it was their bodies that came to life. Once again,
it stresses that it is the body that is raised.
If this be the case, where are the spirits of the righteous now, who are in
Christ? Listen to the Biblical description of the Great City in heaven:
"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the *heavenly* Jerusalem, the city
of the living God. You have come to thousands and thousands of angels
in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are
written in heaven, to the SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT.."
(Hebrews 12:22-23)
In the heavenly Jerusalem there are not only thousands and thousands of
joyful angels, but also the spirits of righteous saints whose bodies have
fallen asleep in Christ.
Perhaps that is why Paul was torn between staying in the body or
**departing** from the body to be with Jesus. If Paul were to remain
apart from Jesus after death, then there would only be one desire, to
stay alive bear fruitful labor. But this is what Paul said:
"For me to live is Christ, to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the
body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I
do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with
Christ, which is better by far;" (Philippians 1:21-23)
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at
home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by
sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the
body and at home with the Lord."
(2 Corinthians 5:6-8)
If our spirit remained in an unconscious state in the tomb, it would not
be away from the body. But of it says in the above verse that we can be
*away from our body*, and for the redeemed: home with the Lord.
Therefore, as stated earlier, in the heavenly Jerusalem are the "spirits
of righteous men made perfect". That is why the Scripture says:
"God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him."
(1 Thessalonians 4:14). When Jesus comes, He will bring back with Him
the spirits of these saints. It goes on to say that "the dead in Christ
will rise first" (1 Thes 4:16). As in Matthew 27:52 quoted earlier,
their *bodies* will comes to life, be reunited with their spirit, and
transformed into an imperishable, glorious, resurrection body like that
of Jesus'. This is how the dead in Christ come to life!
This is the joy and hope that stand before us in Christ! Hallelujah!
We can rejoice in the redemption of our spirit, knowing it will be with
Christ when our bodies die. And we can look forward the redemption
of our sinful body in the resurrection of the dead:
"Not only so, but we ourselves who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8:23)
^^^^^^
I pray that none lose heart, but are encouraged to know that your home
is with Jesus and know that He will *never* leave you nor forsake you
nor abandon you to the grave!
God bless you all,
John Emery
emery@tc.fluke.COMdmp@iowa.epg.harris.com (Donald Patterson) (05/05/91)
Perhaps a simple way to reconcile the *seemingly* contradictory arguments that have been posted on this subject: the moment we die, we leave space-time as we understand it. That is, we are no longer *in* time. If this is true, it would be perfectly proper to say we are with Jesus the moment we die, and also that we all stand before the judgement seet of Christ at *the* `time' of judgement. Since we are presently bound by time, I have explained this `theory' in this way: the moment you die, you are `zapped' forward in time to the judgement at the end of `time'. Also *because* we are `in' time, it becomes impossible to say whether grandma is `now' with Jesus. Grandma left space-time the moment she died, and immediately faced Christ... but if we had to plot out a time line (which is the only way we can understand existence this side of eternity), Grandma is in a `wait state', or is *being zapped*. This is only my opinion, but is is the only way I can reconcile several of the scriptures cited in this discussion. I'd be very interested in comments. ______________________________________________________________________________ Don Patterson, Iowa'82 \\ INTERNET : dmp@epg.harris.com | _ _ | Harris Corporation \\ UUCP : ...!uunet!x102a!dpatterson |_| |_| | | Engr. Productivity Group \\ CCMAIL : DPatters |==============|_/\/\/\|_| 1025 W. Nasa Blvd., MS 3a \\ VOICE : (407) 727-6058 | WON BY ONE + | |_| |_| | Melbourne, FL 32919 \\ FAX : (407) 727-5510 | | |_________|
dhosek@euler.claremont.edu (Don Hosek) (05/07/91)
In article <May.4.22.19.26.1991.21851@athos.rutgers.edu>, dmp@iowa.epg.harris.com (Donald Patterson) writes: > Perhaps a simple way to reconcile the *seemingly* contradictory arguments > that have been posted on this subject: the moment we die, we leave space-time > as we understand it. That is, we are no longer *in* time. If this is true, > it would be perfectly proper to say we are with Jesus the moment we die, and > also that we all stand before the judgement seet of Christ at *the* `time' > of judgement. Since we are presently bound by time, I have explained this > `theory' in this way: the moment you die, you are `zapped' forward in time > to the judgement at the end of `time'. Also *because* we are `in' time, it > becomes impossible to say whether grandma is `now' with Jesus. Grandma left > space-time the moment she died, and immediately faced Christ... but if we > had to plot out a time line (which is the only way we can understand > existence this side of eternity), Grandma is in a `wait state', or is *being > zapped*. This is only my opinion, but is is the only way I can reconcile > several of the scriptures cited in this discussion. Well, what you've just described has been Catholic orthodoxy dating back at least to the nineteenth century. It tends to appear only in books intended for seminary use (it is, after all a little difficult to follow for most), but occasionally will pop up in apologetic works. The basic idea is that in the "eternal" (which is the time state that heaven and hell exist in) our worldly conception of time is completely invalid. For God, the angels, the dead, all of our time appears as one moment (ever wonder how Satan could tempt Job from God's side while some millenia earlier he had seemed to have fallen already with the apple bit (although part of that conception is doubtless related to a tradition received through _Paradise Lost_ among other sources)? now you know). It's a nice cosmology and goes a long way towards explaining a good deal of Christian belief and practice. -dh
davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (05/07/91)
For those who have not been following this: * I posted a series "DEATH & HELL". * John Emery posted his differing views "Believers Life after Death" * Later I posted a point by point reply to John's post. * John has re-stated his views from new perspectives in reponse. There comes a time when we need to allow that each has presented his views with sane mind and intelligence and then to respect those views of the other. As agreeable friends we must dissagree. My recent study has lead me to believe that the real substance of our differering views has to do with our difinitions - "ruach," "pneuma," "nephesh," "psuche". My study has shown that the popular definitions of soul and spirit come from Plato and those who quote heavily from Plato. Plato's views, as he states, on the immortal soul come from "deduction" with no clue at all that he derived any of his views from God inspired sources. And yet the early fathers, such as Autustine, quote elaborately from Plato. I could quote extensively from Catholic and other Bible encyclopedias and commentaries that show their understanding that the Biblical soul and spirit differ remarably from the Platonic soul and spirit. The Biblical forms are seen as part of a wholeness and clearly not separable entities, except that a non concious 'breath of life' returns to God, in the sense that without God's breath of life we cannot live. There are a growing number of authors of many denominations who are discovering the true Biblical defintions, as they dig into the Hebrew and Greek of the Bible. If I accept Plato's definitions of 'soul' and 'spirit' then I have no choice but to agree that John Emery is right in his views. John and I will have to agreeably dissagree on the Biblical definitions of 'nephesh', 'ruache', 'hades', etc. John and I do agree in our blessed hope to be with our Lord Jesus Christ. John sees this happening at the instant of death. I see this happening after an instant of timeless unconciousness. We both would prefer to meet Jesus return without having seen death. Dave (David E. Buxton)
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (05/08/91)
In article <May.2.05.14.41.1991.2878@athos.rutgers.edu> emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
+
+"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
+ (James 2:26)
The word in Greek is pneuma, wind, breath. In other words, a
body not breathing is dead.(As the body without breath is dead,
so...)
It would seem the writer is not making a statement about some
etheral body, here, but what can be generally observed about the
dead person. There are other text which may have a metaphoric use of
life's breath, but this one I think is stretching it.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edudavidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (05/10/91)
In article <May.4.22.19.26.1991.21851@athos.rutgers.edu>, dmp@iowa.epg.harris.com (Donald Patterson) writes: > Perhaps a simple way to reconcile the *seemingly* contradictory arguments > that have been posted on this subject: the moment we die, we leave space-time > as we understand it. That is, we are no longer *in* time. If this is true, > it would be perfectly proper to say we are with Jesus the moment we die, and > also that we all stand before the judgement seet of Christ at *the* `time' > . . . . . . This makes very good philosophical sense to me: It rules out the idea of a separated soul wandering around in heaven or hell. It rules out the possibility of a seance being with anyone but Satan or one of his agents. It rules that a dead loved one cannot return to tell me anything. It makes pointless the idea of praying to anyone who has died, to plead with them to negotiate with God for my present or future condition. And so we turn to Jesus whose wholeness is now in heaven without any *zap* of time warp. He (the Trinity) alone can draw near to us in the present. As you put it, we can see the 2nd Coming and Jesus return to give us immortality at the instant of death. Amen! That is my blessed hope. But of course, as with Paul, I would prefer to meet Him without having spent that zero of time in the grave. Dave (David E. Buxton)