ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (05/03/91)
[In response to a condemnation of the Inquisition, Dennis Parker said > There certainly was no excuse for the Spanish Inquistion. But before > we get too excited about bashing the Catholic church for its indiscretions, > let's remember that Christians of all stripes have engaged in persecutions > of others. How does the Inquistion differ from the Salem witch trials > in spirit? --clh] The Inquistion is part of the history of christianity. Though it is a part we would like to forget, we can never afford to. The continual persecution which we christians engage in does nothing but harm the mission which I believe is ours. How can we teach a doctrine of forgiveness, when we live a doctrine of judgement? How can we teach truth, if we ignore reason and knowledge? How can we teach salvation, if all we offer is condemnation? The Inquisition is not uniquely Catholic it is christian. And it is not a thing of the past, but continues to rend the body of the Church. It is the responsibility of every christian to end it. ldh -- The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody else lays claim to them. ================================================================ Lonnie D. Harvel | ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (05/05/91)
In article <May.3.02.50.17.1991.23893@athos.rutgers.edu>, ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) writes: > > The Inquistion is part of the history of christianity. Though it is > a part we would like to forget, we can never afford to. The continual > persecution which we christians engage in does nothing but harm > the mission which I believe is ours. How can we teach a doctrine of > forgiveness, when we live a doctrine of judgement? How can we > teach truth, if we ignore reason and knowledge? How can we > teach salvation, if all we offer is condemnation? The Inquisition > is not uniquely Catholic it is christian. And it is not a thing > of the past, but continues to rend the body of the Church. It is > the responsibility of every christian to end it. I have to disagree with the notion that all of christianity is to blame for the Inquisition, or that christians in general are involved in continuing persecution. Lonnie is, for one thing, saying that because one kind of 'judgement', the Inquisition, was an evil atrocity, then all forms of judgement are evil and must be ended. Perhaps if Lonnie would give us an example of 'continuing persecution', we might discuss it reasonably. The scriptures indicate clearly that the church must exercise judgement with respect to obvious, persistent, and unrepenant sin. Jesus gave instructions on this topic in Matthew 18, and in 1 Corinthians Paul tells the Corinthians to excommunicate a man guilty of incest. The primary difference between this kind of judgement, and the Inquisition, is that the only punishment given in Scripture (NT) is expulsion from the fellowship of the church. The unrepentant sinner is to be treated as 'a heathen and a tax-collector' (sorry, IRS folks! :-) ). And when this is done, there is always the hope that the sinner will repent and be restored to the church. Again, an example is given in 2 Corinthians, where Paul says that the man guilty of incest, now repentant, is forgiven and to be restored as a member in good standing. The Inquisition, on the other hand, tortured people, and many died. In other places the Catholic church (or the state, acting on the church's request) burned people for heresy, notably John Hus. The Lutherans took a strong stand against such practices in their Augsburg Confession, Article 28, 'The Power of Bishops', or 'Ecclesiastical Power'. They wrote: 'Many and various things have been written in former times about the power of bishops, and some have improperly confused the power of bishops with the temporal sword. Out of this careless confusion many serious wars, tumults, and uprisings have resulted...On this account our teachers have been compelled, for the sake of comforting consciences, to point out the difference between spiritual and temporal power, sword, and authority, and they have taught that because of God's command both authorities and powers are to be honored and esteemed with all reverence as the two highest gifts of God on earth. .... Therefore, the two authorities, the spiritual and the temporal, are not to be mingled or confused, for the spiritual power has its commission to preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments. Hence it should not invade the function of the other, should not set up and depose kings, should not annul temporal laws or undermine obedience to government, should not make or prescribe to the temporal powers concerning worldly matters. .... ... In cases where bishops possess temporal authority and the sword, they possess it not as bishops by divine right, but by human, imperial right, bestowed by Roman emperors and kings for the temporal administration of their lands. Such authority has nothing at all to do with the office of the Gospel.' If you look through Lutheran history, I do not think you will find that Lutheran churches have executed or tortured anyone. Some people blame us for Hitler; while it is true that he used and usurped the churches of Germany, and occasionally quoted Luther's less-than-inspired harangues agains the Jews, the real truth is that the German churches were Hitler's victims and not his collaborators. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [Except for Luther late in life... As he got more temporal power, he found it harder to resist using it to protect the Church. The best evidence I've seen suggested that the German church was split over Hitler. In that sense it was all his victim. However at least some Christians did go along with Nazism, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. I recently saw an estimate that about 1/3 of German Christians were part of churches that actively resisted Hitler. This is actually a fairly good record, I think. Even in extreme cases, not everyone is going to be a rebel. But it's also clear that there were German Lutherans who were Nazis. --clh]
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (05/10/91)
In article <May.5.00.24.51.1991.28156@athos.rutgers.edu> math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes:
+
+The scriptures indicate clearly that the church must exercise judgement
+with respect to obvious, persistent, and unrepenant sin. Jesus gave
+instructions on this topic in Matthew 18, and in 1 Corinthians Paul
+tells the Corinthians to excommunicate a man guilty of incest. The primary
+difference between this kind of judgement, and the Inquisition, is that the
+only punishment given in Scripture (NT) is expulsion from the fellowship of the
+
+The Inquisition, on the other hand, tortured people, and many died. In other
+places the Catholic church (or the state, acting on the church's request)
+burned people for heresy, notably John Hus.
The 'Inquisition' did not kill people. It was the combination of
the Inquisitors determining that a person was not of the faith,
posibly by physical means, and then handing that person to the secular
power to be 'punished' by secular law, which coincedently reflected
'canon' law, or is that cannon law. The secular power is the executioner,
the church only 'excommunicated' the un-faithful. With this set up
in mind one can easily see the reason for separation of church and
state and the prohibtion against laws which support a particular
religious position.
+
+The Lutherans took a strong stand against such practices in their Augsburg
+Confession, Article 28, 'The Power of Bishops', or 'Ecclesiastical Power'.
+They wrote:
Unfortunately the Separatist of early U.S. history were not so
inclined.
+[Except for Luther late in life... As he got more temporal power, he
+found it harder to resist using it to protect the Church.
I think this says it all. The same is apparent of the early church
after Constantine.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.educc5h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles Robert Claydon) (05/11/91)
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!! Sorry! Wrong again...!!!! The inquisition, or any persecution of people based upon faith, creed, value, (or desire of influence, which is probably closer in all cases) is not only not uniquely Catholic, it is not uniquely Christian! It is, in fact, uniquely HUMAN!!! This, once again, seems to be what is called the search for positive evidence, attributing traits to "other groups" which are general human traits, you pick the term, you pick the field of knowledge, it's the same thing... Basically, "inquisitons" of any sort, are common to all groups of all cultures of all time periods. In other words, they are common to people. Well, not to any people, but people in power... Sure, some "Christians" (more likely people identifying themselves as such to gain power...but that's another story) have used Christianity to do this. But this is hardly unique to Christianity. Lest we forget, Romans and Jews did this, and Christians were some of the ones singled out...more recently, Communists and Fascists did this with anyone _they_ didn't agree with. The basic principle is that sometimes people in power are so desperate to maintain that power that they do anything, even kill whole groups of people who threaten it, to maintain (or increase) that power. It basically says nothing more than that people tend to be Machiavellian with power--oooh! Big revelation there (can you say "sin" boys and girls? Very good, I knew you could!!! :-) Well, why do people attribute this trait to Christianity? Well, people who are looking to defame Christians pin this label, along with others, on Christians (OOOHHH, can you say "stereotype", boys and girls? It is another trait rather common to people). Well, before I flame Lonnie too bad, I should point out that I like the point that Christians shouldn't take part in this... just because people do it, _definately_ doesn't make it right (I think Christ was pretty clear about it). And I also agree that when we do it, it tends to defame Christ and Christianity, mainly because people have somehow associated this trait to Christians, and seem to be on the lookout for it more in Christians. Why? I don't know. It certainly isn't more true of "Christians" (in the cultural sense of the word) than other groups (ie: people have a sinful lust and greed for power). But, if we can avoid it, I, for one, think it can point out how, in Christ, we can overcome the ways of the world, and stick out and show that we can overcome and live for a higher cause than worldly gain... Rob