st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (05/08/91)
James Quilty waxes eloquent on his interpretation that keeping the commandments is not necessary to be saved, and that salvation is by faith alone. Such an interpretation begs several questions: 1) How do you explain Jesus' response to the lawyer about how to have eternal life "keep the commandments?" (Including a list of several of them). 2) What other standard exists in the Bible to objectively determine whether or not you are loving God and your neighbor? 3) Why does it matter to you whether keeping the commandments is required for salvation or not? Do you wish to do only the minimum? Which ones (besides the fourth) do you propose to violate? 4) Since you believe you are saved by "faith alone" explain why trying to get this faith is any less "works" than trying to keep the law. (This is not to imply that I don't also believe I'm saved by faith alone) Steve Timm
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (05/10/91)
Hmn, I think Jesus said something like, ``Unless your righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of God.'' So obviously salvation does not come by a sort of minimum requirement. In fact, Paul claims that ``as to righteousness under the law [he was] blameless.'' Nevertheless, he found this inadequate. He says elsewhere, ``Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.'' (Galatians 3.21) Note that the issue in this passage is actually righteousness, not salvation (not to claim that the two can be seperated). If people will forgive me for the phrase, I think we really need to see this as a paradigm shift. The question might have been posed, ``How can we be good enough to be saved and to otherwise please God?'' But the N.T. teaching seems to answer a different question, because it says that righteousness grows out of our restored relationship with God, apart from the law (Romans 3.21-22: ``But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe;'' see also Ephesians 2.8-10). Righteousness is not a qualification, it is a by-product. The question of an objective standard for righteousness, in my mind, is answered in Galatians 5, when Paul discusses the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit. I really feel that Galatians 5.22 gives us plenty to deal with. And those qualities are gifts of the Spirit as he works in us. I'd like to point out a distinction here that I feel is important. People often distinguish between `external' righteousness and `internal' righteousness. The first is coerced, the second comes from the heart. Not wanting to deny this distinction, I'd nevertheless like to turn it on its head. In truth, our righteousness is an `external' righteousness. It is not something that we posess or that is an expression of our nature. Instead, we borrow it from Christ. To the extent that Christ's Spirit works in our lives, to that extent we become righteous. (See Phil. 3.9). We are never righteous in ourselves (nor do we ever posess the truth in ourselves, etc.). This is an important point; among other things, if we remember this we will be less likely to condemn those around us. Anyway, I think we need to remember that Christian ethics are `supernatural'. We are not able to be the way God wants us to be by ourselves (back to Galatians 3.21 again). Yet this is painful because we are not in control. If the Spirit does not act, our situation is hopeless. The desire to DO SOMETHING is behind the desire to have a law to follow. Besides this, laws are much more comforting to the leadership. They are an objective standard by which followers can be measured. To have to say, ``Walk by the Spirit'' is very unnerving. However, this is the implication of the fact that our righteousness only grows out of our relationship, by faith, with a supernatural agent. -- -Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com
smithjh@moondance.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) (05/11/91)
In article <May.8.04.22.35.1991.11412@athos.rutgers.edu> st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: >James Quilty waxes eloquent on his interpretation that keeping the >commandments is not necessary to be saved, and that salvation is by >faith alone. Such an interpretation begs several questions: > >1) How do you explain Jesus' response to the lawyer about how to >have eternal life "keep the commandments?" (Including a list of several >of them). > >2) What other standard exists in the Bible to objectively determine >whether or not you are loving God and your neighbor? > >3) Why does it matter to you whether keeping the commandments is >required for salvation or not? Do you wish to do only the minimum? >Which ones (besides the fourth) do you propose to violate? > >4) Since you believe you are saved by "faith alone" explain why trying >to get this faith is any less "works" than trying to keep the law. >(This is not to imply that I don't also believe I'm saved by faith alone) > >Steve Timm There is a fine distiction that needs to be made here. It is true that we (Christians) are saved by faith (pistis in Greek) alone. Faith is our only basis for righteousness. We must believe (also pistis) that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. In the epistle of James we discover that faith is dead without works. So the question becomes: faith alone, or faith with works? But faith is the evidence of things not seen. Obedience/submission to God is the *evidence* of faith in us. So it is not our works that justify us but rather concurring in our will to the authority of Jesus Christ to make the rules, whatever those rules may be. And it is this obedience that bears witness of our faith. Loving one another just because you think it is a good idea does not get you past the pearly gates. Peace and Grace, Jeremy
James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/11/91)
In article <May.8.04.22.35.1991.11412@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: |> Such an interpretation begs several questions: |> |> 1) How do you explain Jesus' response to the lawyer about how to |> have eternal life "keep the commandments?" (Including a list of |> several |> of them). Give me a Bible reference, please, I've never seen this verse. (chances are there is a faulty interpretation, here !) (And remember, nobody can ever 'keep' the commandments - we all fail - unless someone would claim to be perfect ??!!) |> 2) What other standard exists in the Bible to objectively determine |> whether or not you are loving God and your neighbor? Objectivity is a myth for humans - the only way to be objective is to not use your mind, are you prepared to do this ? Each person must be true to themselves - Loving God or your neighbor is not tested by any law, anywhere - such matters may be obeyed without Loving God and your neighbour ! is that objective ??? Each person themselves must love God and their neighbour - not keep laws !!! |> 3) Why does it matter to you whether keeping the commandments is |> required for salvation or not? Do you wish to do only the minimum? |> Which ones (besides the fourth) do you propose to violate? It matters to me because of the whole of the NT, Jesus dying on the cross, Galatians, Romans, all of it - because there is no way that law-keeping and faith can be mixed as a path to salvation ! (law-keeping for salvation is quite illogical with respect to the NT) There is no minimum, nor any maximum for us - Christians are not bound by any laws ! (Jesus, Galatians, Romans, Timothy, etc...) I can't and don't violate any laws - I'm not bound by any !!! (this is not to say that things are not philosophically 'right' or 'wrong' eg murder, stealing, lying. Adultery is another kettle of fish, encompassing sexuality as it does.) To keep the laws that you or anyone else (NOTE: NOT God) say that I should keep would be wrong - it is not within my faith in God to do so. |> 4) Since you believe you are saved by "faith alone" explain why trying |> to get this faith is any less "works" than trying to keep the law. |> (This is not to imply that I don't also believe I'm saved by faith alone) Easy - consider all that is intangible about my faith - my trust, my love, my belief, etc. these are not 'works' by any stretch of the imagination - they are part of everyone's being and don't have to be 'obtained'. I never had to 'try' to 'get' the faith, God supplied the grace for my salvation and I accepted - nothing 'works' about it !!! (don't ask me to judge others salvation if they choose not to accept, I'm not God, I [fortunately] don't have to choose these things.) Trying to keep the 'law' to be saved is a lost cause - has been always ! (Jesus, Galatians, Timothy, Romans, Etc, Etc, Etc !) Jim. P.S. According to whom do I violate the 'Fourth Commandment' (extra-scriptural reference, please, I know what the Bible says) [I think the reference is to Jesus' encounter with the rich young man, Mt 19:16-30, Mk 10:17-31, Lk 18:18-30. The man asks Jesus what he has to do to be saved. Jesus replies (in Mt) "Why do you ask me concerning what is good? There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter [eternal] life." "What commandments?" At this point Jesus lists 5 of the 10 commandments, and adds "love your neighbor as you love yourself", which is from Lev. 19:18. --clh]
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (05/13/91)
I think that James Quilty and I are arguing at cross purposes here.
He has several times in net.discussions with myself and others
decried the legalism of those who try to earn their salvation by works.
In this premise I concur with him, and agree that it is totally possible to
"keep every letter of the law" and still not love your neighbor. I am not
trying to convince him or anyone else that his salvation depends on keeping
any one or all of the Ten Commandments, or any of the ceremonial laws.
My points are twofold:
1) There are (or should be) other motivations than ones own salvation
to do things in your Christian life. Salvation is not the end, but the
beginning of a relationship with God.
2) I believe that Christ can help me to love my neighbor. Some of
the most explicit instructions He gave to do this are in the Sermon
on the Mount, and they start with the law, and extend it from there
so as to counter the "letter of the law" legalism that violated the
spirit. The spirit of the law extends it from adultery to lust,
from murder to anger and hate, etc.
James is right in resisting what he feels are attempts to judge. It's not
my business to judge him on whether or how he observes a certain day.
(If he wants extrabiblical sources, I would recommend Bacchiocchi
_From Sabbath to Sunday_ or _Divine Rest for Human Restlessness,
but I don't need them to make this point.)
So again, I pose the question:
You're saved by faith--fine, I agree. Now what are you going to do?
Is Christ just an ambulance service at the bottom of the cliff, waiting
to pick us up every time we fall?
Or do you think he wants to teach us a bit about cliff safety?
Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon
"Shame on you, and shame on you again
for converting me into a bullet and
shooting me into men's hearts." Richard Harris c 1972James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/18/91)
In article <May.13.04.13.29.1991.14748@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: |> You're saved by faith--fine, I agree. Now what are you going to do? Anything that is consistant with my faith in God ! (which is quite a lot, actually :-). You can do anything that is consistent with your faith in God too - I wouldn't expect anything different ! I don't want people constraining me to follow God in terms of their faith, which is what people do when they say: "Now this is what God wants you to do..." - that's what I don't like !! |> Is Christ just an ambulance service at the bottom of the cliff, waiting |> to pick us up every time we fall? No, I don't think so. For me, I feel that I have to take care of myself and if I fall off of cliffs, I have to pick myself up rather than bother God with my trivialities ! |> Or do you think he wants to teach us a bit about cliff safety? The cliffs that I might fall off might be just little holes to you... (one man's meat is another man's poison !). I can't imagine a set of rules that would be good for everyone. Not even the ten commandments - what Jesus teaches me and what Jesus teaches you will probably be two different things ! The point I'm trying to make is: "We DO whatever we want, that is consistent with OUR faith in God, and other people are in no position to judge us or tell us what God wants, nor are we in any position to judge others or tell others what God wants !" This has particular relevance when people start talking about DOing things "the way God wants" ! Jim.