kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) (04/18/91)
OFM wrote that the "derangement of relations between the sexes was a consequence of [the first sin]," and Jim Green replied: >Derangement??? What 'derangement between the sexes'? What is he >talking about??? Any derangement here is belief that the so called >sin of the Garden of Eden had anything to do with sex. While I would not put words into our Moderator's keyboard, I see two kinds of "derangement" in relations between the sexes: problems with the ways men and women interact, and sinful abuses of sexuality. For the first, one need only look at TV shows and movies which are based on men complaining that women are capricious, or women complaining that men are insensitive. Many magazine articles purport to explain "what makes your man tick" or "ten things men should know about women". These programs, movies and articles are immensely popular: many men and women are apparently quite lost when relating to each other -- even when they are spouses, according to divorce statistics. This confusion does not seem consistent with God's plan to make Adam a "suitable" helper (Genesis 2:18); I believe that these problems are a result of Original Sin -- and therefore the sin of Eden. For the second, consider sins like adultery, child molestation, and rape. As I see it, using one of God's gifts to betray, abuse, and assault other humans constitutes "derangement" of that gift. I believe that all these problems between men & women result from humans being fallen, sinful creatures. In Romans 5:12 it says "sin entered the world through one man," and it seems a natural conclusion that the problems which plague relations between the sexes result from that sin. I do not know what Mr Green means by his comment that "Any derangement here is belief that the so called sin of the Garden of Eden had anything to do with sex." If the sin in Eden did not cause the problems men & women have interacting (including the sinful abuses of sexuality), what did? kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy "The first thing that strikes the careless observer is that women are unlike men. They are `the opposite sex' -- (though why `opposite' I do not know; what is the `neighbouring sex'?). But the fundamental thing is that women are more like men than anything else in the world. They are human beings." -- Dorothy L Sayers
grossg@patriot.rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (05/03/91)
In article <Apr.18.03.14.18.1991.7239@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: > >I do not know what Mr Green means by his comment that "Any derangement here >is belief that the so called sin of the Garden of Eden had anything to do >with sex." If the sin in Eden did not cause the problems men & women have >interacting (including the sinful abuses of sexuality), what did? I dont't want to put words in Mr. Green's mouth, but I think that what he was saying was simply that sex, per se, was not the act of sin that caused the fall. Rather, the fall was caused by disobedience to God by eating the "forbidden fruit." The "forbidden fruit" was not sex; otherwise, how could Adam and Eve have been obedient to the command to be fruitful and to multiply if sex was sinful.
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (05/10/91)
In article <May.3.03.29.46.1991.24578@athos.rutgers.edu> grossg@patriot.rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes:
+by eating the "forbidden fruit." The "forbidden fruit" was not sex;
+otherwise, how could Adam and Eve have been obedient to the command to
+be fruitful and to multiply if sex was sinful.
The 'sin' could have been enjoying the processing of getting to the
multiplication tables.
It seems that Augustine cemented the concept of "original sin" and
sexual congress is thereby "sin", for if sex is not sinful how could
the result of sex, procreation, become inately sinful. There has in
the past been debates as whether one(probably the man) should
'enjoy' the act or perform a prefunctatory duty, to be done with all
due hast. Until recently, one might surmise, the woman was to
dutifully submit but not particularly enjoy the proceedings.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edumcorbin@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Michael Corbin) (05/19/91)
Perhaps procreation would have been similar to the experience that Mary had when "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit, and the birth of Jesus. I tend to agree that the original sin had something also to do with the possible relationship or communion that Eve had with the "serpent." In turn, she persuaded her husband to commit an act with her. Mike
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/22/91)
In article <May.18.22.56.45.1991.14219@athos.rutgers.edu> mcorbin@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Michael Corbin) writes: >Perhaps procreation would have been similar to the experience that Mary >had when "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit, and the birth of Jesus. I >tend to agree that the original sin had something also to do with the possible >relationship or communion that Eve had with the "serpent." In turn, she >persuaded her husband to commit an act with her. > >Mike > Do you think that if Adam and Eve had not fallen, that they would not have had intercourse? Do you think that this was the sin that they commited together. Before Adam fell, then God created him and Eve he said, "Two shall be one flesh." What was this refering to? hmmm. I think in part, it was refering to a sexual union. Why? Look at how it is used in I Corinthians 6. Paul quotes this and tells the people not to commit fornication because they should not try to join Christ with a harlot (sexually, of course. I am sure he was not saying anything against preaching to prostitutes.) Here we see "one flesh" being used to refer to the sexual union. If you will look at Matthew 19, Jesus shows that that two becoming one flesh was ordained by God. Also look at the Scriptural attitude in Hebrews 13. 'Marriage is holy in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers, adn adulterers, God will judge." It remnants of certain aspects of Western culture that give us the idea that the marital union is inately bad. God created it. Only the perversion of it is bad. Link Hudson.