[soc.religion.christian] After Death, What? - Authoritive Quotes about Plato, etc

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (05/14/91)

In article <May.13.01.27.49.1991.11687@athos.rutgers.edu>, mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) writes:
> In article <May.10.03.05.29.1991.6501@athos.rutgers.edu>,
> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes:
> 
> > It has become clear to me that the popular views of body, soul, spirit  come
> > from  Plato  who  believed in re-incarnation.
> 
> How can this become clear when Plato did not say anyting supportive of
> reincarnation, nor are his ideas about the soul (cf. _Phaidon_) much
> like any modern "popular" notions?  Have you ever read any Plato, David?
> or are you just using his name as some old, influential non-Christian on
> whom to cast blame?  Plato seems to have believed (at least, this is the
> simplest way of reading what he wrote, but Plato is always dangerous to
> take too simple-mindedly) that souls are eternal and pre-existed bodies.
> . . . .

Soul - Nelson's Expository  Dictionary  of  the  Old  Testament,  edited  by
Merrill F. Unger and William White,  Jr, pp. 388, 389:

     The real difficulty of the term is seen in the inability of almost  all
     English  translations  to  find a consistent equivalent or even a small
     group of high-frequency equivalents for the term.  The KJV  alone  uses
     over  28 different English terms for this one Hebrew word.  The problem
     with the English term "soul" is that no actual equivalent of  the  term
     or  the  idea  behind  it  is  represented in the Hebrew language.  The
     Hebrew system of thought does not incude the combination or  opposition
     of  the  terms  "body"  and "soul," which are really Greek and Latin in
     origin.

     poetic line, nephesh is often used as the  parallel  for  the  speaker,
     primary personal subject, and even for God, as in Ps. 11:5.

     [nephesh] enlightens many well known passages, such as Ps. 119:109: "My
     life  [nephesh] is continually in my hand, Yet I do not forget Thy law"
     (NASB)

Merrill F. Unger, Unger's Bible Handbook, p. 267:

     Hebrew poetry, unlike Occidental verse, does not posses meter or rhyme.
     Its  basic  structure is parallelism of thought arrangement rather than
     word  arrangements.   Common  types  of  such   parallelism   are   (1)
     'synonymous  parallelism',  where  the second line or stich repeats the
     first, giving a distich or couplet (cf. Job 3:11-12; 4:17; Ps 2:4); (2)
     'antithetic parallelism', in which the second line presents a contrast-
     ing thought to emphasize the first  (Job 42:5;  Ps  34:10);  (3)  'syn-
     thetic  parallelism',  in  which  the second and succeeding lines add a
     progressive flow of thought to develop the first (Job 4:19-21; Ps 1:3).

"The Jewish Encyclopedia":

     Immortality of the Soul - The belief that the soul continues its  exis-
     tance  after the dissolution of the body is a mtter of philosophical or
     theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly
     nowhere  expressly  taught  in  Holy  Scripture . . . The belief in the
     immortality of the soul came  to  the  Jews  from  contact  with  Greek
     thought  and  chiefly  through  the  philosophy of Plato, its principal
     exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries  in
     which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.

     SOUL - . . . . .  Only through the contact of the Jews with Persian and
     Greek  thought did the idea of a disembodied soul, having its own indi-
     viduality, take root in Judaism and find its expression  in  the  later
     Biblical books . . . .

The "New Catholic Encyclopedia", Vol. 18 (NewYork:  McGraw-Hill,  1967),  p.
449:

     Nepes comes from an original root probably meaning to breathe, and thus
     the noun form means neck or throat opened for breathing, thence, breath
     of life.  Since breath distinguishes the living from  the  dead,  nepes
     came  to mean life or self or simply individual life.  Nepes is used in
     regard to both  animals  and  humans.   If  life  is  human,  nepes  is
     equivalent to the person, the "I."  After death the nepes goes to sheol
     [the grave].

     The above summary indicates that there is no dichotomy of body and soul
     in the OT.  The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and
     thus he considered men as persons and  not  as  composites.   The  term
     'nepes,'  though  translated by our word soul, never means soul as dis-
     tinct from the body or the individual person.  Other words  in  the  OT
     such  as  sprit,  flesh,  and  heart  also signify the human person and
     differ only as various aspects of the same being.

"Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 15 (New York: Macmillan Company, 1971), p. 175:

     Only in the post-biblical period, did a clear and firm  belief  in  the
     immortality of the soul . . . . . become one of the cornerstones of the
     Jewish and Christian faiths.

"The Zondrevan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible, Vol. 5 , p. 496:

     The English translation of 'nephesh' by the term "soul" has  too  often
     been  misunderstood as teaching a bipartite (soul and body): dichotomy)
     or  tripartite  (body,  soul  and  spirit:  trichotomy)   anthropology.
     Equally  misleading is the interpretation which too radically separates
     soul from body as in the Greek view of human nature.  Porteus states it
     well  when  he  says,  "The  Hebrew could not conceive of a disembodied
     nephesh, though he could use 'nephesh' with or  without  the  adjective
     'dead,' for corpse (e.g., Lev 19:28; Num 6:6)" (ibid).  Or as R.B. Lau-
     rin has suggested. "To the Hebrew, man was not a 'body'  and  a  'soul'
     but  rather  a  'body-soul,' a unity of vital power"  (cf. BDT, sS.V.).
     The most significant text is Genesis 2:7, "then the Lord God formed man
     of  the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath
     of life; and man became a living being [nephesh]."

"The Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible", p. 2287:

     The original meaning of 'nefes' and the  concepts  that  are  connected
     with  it  show  that  the 'nefes' (like the ruah) of a man was not con-
     sidered in Israel to be a sort of duplicate of him, as the 'ka' was  in
     Egypt, or the 'psuche' among the ancient Greeks (e.g., Hom. Iliad 1,3),
     or was whatever words various primitive people have for the "soul."

     (C) It is sometimes thought  that  the  Isrealites  believed  that  the
     'nefes'  could exist apart from the body and that, after a man's death,
     his 'nefes' continued to exist in the nether world.  But the OT  really
     gives  no  basis  for  such  an opinion.  When it speaks of rescuing or
     delivering a man's 'nefes' from  the  nether  world  (Ps  30:3;  86:13;
     89:49; 116:4; Is 38:17; Prv 23:14), it means no more than that this man
     is saved from dying (cfr. Ps 33:19; 56:14; 78:50; Jb 33:18, 22, 28)  or
     that  he  was snatched from mortal danger; in all these cases the man's
     'nefes' is merely a synonym for the man himself, with some emphasis  on
     him  as a "living" being (cfr., e.g., the parallelism in Ps 16:10, "You
     will not abandon my 'nefes' to the nether world, nor  will  You  suffer
     Your  faithful one to undergo corruption"; so also in Ps 49:16; cfr. Jb
     13:14, where "my nefes" is parallel to "my flesh").

Random House, "The Dictionary of the New Testament", p. 707

     Man became a 'soul' because God, who alone  was  the  Living  One,  had
     breathed  into  his  nostrils the breath of life.  This soul was not in
     itself immortal . . . .  The  Greek  word  'psyche',  like  the  Hebrew
     'nephesh',  may  be  translated not only by 'soul,' but also by 'life,'
     'person,' or even by a pronoun: 'I' or 'someone.'

"Dictionary of Bible Theology", p. 565, 566:

     "Far from being a "part" which joins with the body to  form  the  human
     being,  the soul denotes the entire man, insofar as he is animated by a
     spirit of life . . . A soul is a man, it is someone . . . .

     The concept of the body common in the N.T. defines  man  as  a  complex
     orgganism, a whole, a unity.  It is not simply the "form" of the organ-
     ism, as opposed to the substance which might be its content, but a mode
     of  being  essential to and constitutive of the human person.  There is
     no human existence which is not bodily existence (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35ff),

"Evangelical Dictionary of Theology", p. 1041:

     Mankind has breath, or spirit . . . when a person dies  the  spirit  is
     returned to God (Ecc 12:7).  Life and death, therefore, are represented
     in the BIble as a giving and a withdrawing of God's breath, or  spirit;
     for  all  created life, including humanity, is utterly dependent on Him
     (Ps. 104). . . . As the principle of life, spirit is ascribed to beasts
     also (Gen. 6:17; 7:15).

"New Catholic Encyclopedia", Vol 13, p. 517:

     Since God is the life-giver, life breath comes from Him and  man  lives
     as long as God's breath remains in Him (Jb 27:3; Is 42:5; Za 12:1). . .
     .  In creatures with lungs, breathing is a natural sign of life, and in
     many  languages the term connoting physical breath takes on the meaning
     of what it signifies, life.  So in Hebrew, 'ruach' came to mean  breath
     as  significative of life in men (Gn 6:17; Ez 37:10) and in animals (Gn
     7:22; Ps 104: 29).

"A Theological Word Book of the Bible", p. 234:

     For the Hebrews man is of the earth; he is flesh, Isa.  31:3.   In  the
     post-  exilic  period  'Spirit' became a virtual synonym for 'soul' and
     'heart', the seat of intelligence and emotion in  man  (cf.  Job  20:3,
     32:18,  Isa  57:15,  Dan 5:20).  Human characteristics are described in
     'spiritual' terms.

"A Theological Word Book of the Bible", p. 144:

     SOUL (nephesh) means the living being.  We might render it 'person'  or
     'personality',  so  long  as we remember that in Hebrew thought even an
     animal is a 'nephesh' . . .

     SPIRIT (ruach), literaly wind, and in  a  person,  breath,  means  that
     which is the mark of the living as opposed to the dead.  This, however,
     does not distinguish it from soul (nephesh), and one would  be  tempted
     to  make a distinction by calling 'ruach' the whole non-physical aspect
     of man were it not that it is difficult to say that the Hebrews did not
     conceive  both 'ruach' and 'nephesh' as in some way physical and having
     substance, modern notions of immateriality being beyond them.  Pedersen
     differentiates  thus:  "'ruach' is the motive power of the 'soul'" (op.
     cit., p. 105), and illustrates from Ezra 1:1  'The Lord stirred up  the
     spirit  of  Cyrus',  i.e.  moved  Cyrus to do something, similarly Hag.
     1:14.  "Ruach' is frequently used of mental processes, especially viva-
     city, impulse, anger.

"Dictonary of the Bible", pp. 836-839:

     The word "soul" is used in  English  Bibles  to  translate  the  Hebrew
     'nepes'. The translation is unfortunate; soul in common speech reflects
     a complex of ideas which go back to  Greek  philosophy  as  refined  by
     medieval  scholasticism.  In the philosophy of Plato the soul is a pure
     spiritual principle, the subject of thought really  distinct  from  the
     body,  and  immortal; . . . . .  In Aristotelian philosophy the soul is
     united with the body as a form united to matter; it is the  subject  of
     thought  but  its spirituality and immortality are less evident . . . .
     Then NT employs the Greek 'psyche', tranlated in English by soul . .  .
     .  The  NT use of the term is heavily dependent on the OT use and shows
     little or no effect of Greek philosophyical concepts . . . .  In  these
     uses, as in the use of 'psyche' to signify life, the NT adds nothing to
     the OT conception of 'nepes' . . . .  In common  speech,  however,  the
     Greek  concept of 'psyche' as a distinct spiritual principle is usually
     read into the term, and thus the concept of salvation and eternal  life
     may  become  Platonic  rather than Biblical.  The 'psyche' in the NT is
     still the totality of the self as a living and conscious  subject,  and
     it is the totality of the self which is saved for eternal life.

"Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible", p. 497:

     It should be noted that the  NT  does  not  make  a  clear  distinction
     between  'psuche' and 'pneuma' (spirit).   First Thessalonians 5:23 and
     Hebrews 4:12 are exceptions, and can best be understood not as  affirm-
     ing  a  trichotomous  anthropology but as figures of speech . . . .  To
     derive exact phsychological descriptions from these two  statements  is
     pressing the non-technical language of Scriptures too far.

On 1 Thes 5:23 -- "Manual of Christian Doctrine", L.  Berkhof,  (Eerdman's),
p. 123:

     distinct elements in man rather than as three different aspects of man.
     When Jesus summarizes the first table of the law by saying, "Thou shalt
     love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with  all  thy  soul  and
     with all thy mind," in Matt. 22:37, He does not have in mind three dis-
     tinct substances.  Such expressions simply serve to emphasize the  fact
     that the whole man in intended.

"Death and the Soul", by George Wisbrock (a Baptist), pp 207,208:

     Plato

     Plato (427-347 B. C.)  was  greatly  influenced  by  Pythagoras.   Like
     Pythagoras,  Plato  believed an immortal soul dwelt within man and that
     it would separate from man's physical body at death.  He also  believed
     this  immortal soul could reincarnate into another human body, and that
     it would transmigrate into lower class plants and  animals  if  it  had
     been extremely evil in supposed previous lifetimes.

     Plato further believed that if a particular soul had been "good enough"
     during its period of punishment here on earth, then its perpetual cycle
     of incarnation  and  transmigration  would  cease.   Once  a  soul  had
     redeemed  itself  by appeasing the offended god or goddess who had sent
     it to earth, it would supposedly return to the offended  diety's  pres-
     ence either in the heavens above or in the earth below.

     Further still, Plato, many of the other  Greek  philosopehrs,  and  the
     majority  of  the  Greek  population during his lifetime, believed that
     their gods and goddesses were in control of all the  affairs  of  man's
     life  on  earth  --  as  well as of all the alleged spiritual abodes in
     which 'souls' were then believed to reside both before birth and  after
     death.

     More than any other Greek philosopher, Plato was  responsible  for  the
     spread  into  Western  minds  of  the false teaching about the alledged
     immortality or the soul and of its assumed ability to  reincarnate  and
     transmigrate  into  various kinds of bodies.  Because of the prominence
     given to Plato as the person most responsible for the development of  a
     belief  in  the  continuation of a soul's life after death, much of our
     current duscussion will focus upon what he wrote about  death  and  the
     soul.

     Plato and Socrates

     Plato's thinking about the immortality of the soul was no doubt heavily
     influenced  during  his  twenty year stay in Egypt.  He was also influ-
     enced by the thinking of Socrates (469?-399 B.C..), his most  respected
     teacher.  Several  of  Plato's  writings  discuss  Socrates'  life  and
     thoughts about life after death.  Almost all  of  what  we  know  about
     Socrates  has  come  to  us form the pen of Plato, who worote about the
     last days of Socrates' life in his works 'Phaedo, Euthyphro, The  Apol-
     ogy, and Crito'.

     Some scholars believe that many  of  the  comments  Plato  ascribed  to
     Socrates  about  the  existence  of an assumed indwelling soul were far
     more an expression of his own thinking than they were of Socrates' per-
     sonal beliefs . . . .

"A Dictionary of Christian Theology", (Westminster Press, 1969), p. 316:

     The ancient Church inherited from Greek thought the notion of  a  soul-
     substance  which  was by nature immortal, and this conception was often
     intertwined with biblical teaching about resurrection.   In the  bibli-
     cal view a man dies and literally ceases to exist . . . .  On the Greek
     view death is merely a change in the manner of existence.

"The Temple Dictionary of the Bible", p. 777:

     On Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-163) -- In the fragment of his  treatise  on
     the  Resurrection we have this statement:  "The body is the dwelling of
     the soul, the soul the dwelling of the  spirit."   We  find  a  similar
     statement  in  his  dialogue  with Trypho; he makes Trypho say, "As the
     body without the soul is dead, so is the soul  without  the  quickening
     spirit (zootikon pneuma)," proving that Justin thought this distinction
     to be  one  recognized  by  Jews  as  well  as  Christians.   Similarly
     Irenaeus,  "The  soul  and the spirit are certainly a part of man, cer-
     tainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the coming and  the
     union of the soul receiving the Spirit of the Father, and the admixture
     of the fleshly  nature  which  was  molded  after  the  image  of  God"
     (Robert's translation).  Many of the Gnostic heresies assumed this tri-
     chotomy.

"The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church", 1965, p. 2236:

     Even a church father like Origen, steeped as he was in  Greek  philoso-
     phy,  discarded  the idea of a pre-existent soul found in Neo-Platonism
     because such a notion was contrary to the Christian concept of  God  as
     the  Creator  of  all  things.   If God alone is eternal and all things
     including man are created by God 'ex nihilo'  [out  of  nothing],  then
     souls  cannot be immortal and uncreated as Plato taught.  Most authori-
     ties agree that an immaterial and immortal soul which is thought of  as
     some  part  of man separable from his mortal body is neither a biblical
     nor a Christian idea.

"New Catholic Encyclopedia", p. 467:

     The Soul in the OT means not a part of man, but, the whole man  --  man
     as  a living being.  Similarly, in the NT it signifies human life:  the
     life of the individual, conscious subject . . . . the  Bible  does  not
     speak of the survival of an immaterial soul.  This is not surprising if
     one considers that categories of Greek philosophy are not likely to  be
     found in Semitic copies of literature.

Wesleyan scholar, J.A. Beet, "Immortality of the Soul", pp. 53,54:

     The phrase, "The soul immortal', so frequent  and  conspicious  in  the
     writings  of  Plato, we have not found in pre-Christian literature out-
     side the influence of Greek Philosophy; nor have we found it in  Chris-
     tian  literature  until  the later part of the second century.  We have
     noticed that all the earliest Christian writers  who  use  this  phrase
     were  familiar  with the teachings of Plato; that one of these, Tertul-
     lian, expressly refers both the phrase and doctrine to  him;  and  that
     the  early  Christian writers never support this doctrine by appeals to
     the Bible, but only by arguments simlilar to those of Plato . . . .  We
     have  failed  to find any trace of this doctrine in the Bible . . .  It
     is altogether alien, both in phrase and thought, to  the  teachings  of
     Christ and his apostles.

Lutherin writer J. A. Kantonen in "The Christian Hope", pp. 28,29:

     It has been characteristic of Western thought ever since Plato to  dis-
     tinguish  sharply  between the soul and the body.  The body is supposed
     to be composed of matter, and the soul of spirit.  The body is a prison
     from  which  the  soul is liberated at death to carry on its own proper
     nonphysical existence.  Becuase of its immaterial spiritual nature  the
     soul has been considered indestructible . . .

     This way of thinking is entirely  foreighn   to  the  Bible.   True  to
     Scripture  and definitely rejecting the Greek view, the Christian creed
     says, not "I believe in the immortality of the soul" but "I believe  in
     the resurrection of the body."

     its own.  It would be more in keeping with the New Testament  to  speak
     of  soul-life rather than of the soul as such.  'Psuche' is the unique-
     ness or the individuality of a  particular  life,  not  some  separable
     indestructible substance.

Paul Tillich, January 14, 1960, while addressing the New  York  Society  for
Clinical Psychiatry, on the "Meaning of Health":

     "Man should not be considered as a composite of several levels, such as
     body,  soul,  spirit, but as a multidimensional unity . . . .  In every
     dimension of life, all dimensions are potentially or actually present .
     .  . . He is a unity which unites all dimensions.  This doctrine stands
     against the dualistic theory which sees man as  composed  of  soul  and
     body;  or  body  and mind; or body, soul, and spirit, etc.  Man is one,
     uniting within himself all dimensions of life -- an  insight  which  we
     partly  owe  to the recent development of medicine, especially psychia-
     try.

Rudolph Bultmann, "Theology of the New Testament", pp. 203,204:

     Let us cast a glance once again at the doctrine of the  immortality  of
     the  soul.   It cannot be explained by weakness of faith on the part of
     the church that it took over a point of view which  came  from  such  a
     different  source  --  that  of  Greek  philosophy,  and was so utterly
     foreign to its own essential  teaching.   Somewhere  in  the  Christian
     faith there must have been some opening through which this foreign doc-
     trine could penetrate.  Assuredly, from the Biblical standpoint, it  is
     God  alone  who  possesses  immortality.   The oppinion that we men are
     imortal because our soul is of an indestructible, devine,  essence  is,
     once for all, irreconcilable with the Biblical view of God and man.

"The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church", p. 2236:

     The term soul is being  used  less  and  less  in  current  theological
     thought and literature.  Even religious literature, sermons, and modern
     translations of the Bible avoid the word soul.   For  example,  if  one
     turns  to  Matthew  16:26,  he  discovers  that the Greek word for soul
     (psyche) is translated "soul" in the King James Version and by Moffatt,
     but as "life" in the Revised Standard Version and by Weymouth, and with
     the word "self" in the new English Bible.  All of which indicates  that
     in  modern  English and American usage terms like self, ego, life, per-
     son, or personality are being used in preference to the word soul.

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) (05/18/91)

In article <May.14.00.07.26.1991.7069@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes:

> ...A masterly compendium of quotes about Plato, Greek Philosophy, and the
> conception of the soul as found in the Bible.

Thank you! 

However, I'm not quite sure (having missed the previous postings) what
relationship you think there is between the Platonic conception of the soul
and the resurrection of the dead. 

Therefore, I would like to add that belief in an immortal and immaterial
soul has no relevance to faith in life after death. Therefore, if we grant
(as you so cogently argue) that the notion of an immortal and immaterial
soul is not Biblical, but a philosophical interpolation, then this has no
bearing on the issue of resurrection. Belief in a Platonic soul is not
necessary to belief in the resurrection of dead, or eternal life in heaven.

Since Christ has promised me (and all who believe) that we will drink the
new wine of paradise with him, we shall do so. Metaphysical questions about
minds, bodies, souls, and spirits have nothing to do with it. One day, I
will die. One day, I will live again. 

It is not necessary that I posit an explanation of how the trick will be
done; I don't have to theorize that my "soul" somehow survives death, and
is one day placed back in a body. (Such theories don't have much
explanatory value anyway; they raise more questions than they settle, and
constitute excess baggage.) 


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (05/23/91)

In article <May.18.01.56.42.1991.3509@athos.rutgers.edu>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
> . . . . .
> Since Christ has promised me (and all who believe) that we will drink the
> new wine of paradise with him, we shall do so. Metaphysical questions about
> minds, bodies, souls, and spirits have nothing to do with it. One day, I
> will die. One day, I will live again. 

Consider the many movies from Hollywood that leverage the popular
notions of speeding away to heaven when we die.  It is typical in these
movies that the departed loved one returns to haunt a house(s), torment
the living, or communicate and assist the living.  So, what is at first
glance quite innocent ends up as spiritualism.  Thousands of Christians
would be spared the many popular forms of modern spiritualism and the
fringes and outright New Age theologies that are so entrenched already
in Christianity.  Sure, you yourself may be thoroughly secure from
Christian Spiritualism, but many are not.  The Bible warns us that we
cannot serve two masters, we cannot be Christians and Spiritualists, but
so many prophessed Christians know little of the difference, are
vulnerable to the delusions of Satan, who we are warned is capable of
masquerading as an angel from God - offering dilussions designed to
lead astray the very elect of God.  So, it is really no small issue
after all.

Dave (David E. Buxton)