tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (05/13/91)
The original to which I am responding appeared in soc.culture.jewish. My comments are more appropriately directed to this forum. In article <1991May8.055514.4350@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> you write: > > MESSIANIC JUDAISM ______ WHAT IS IT? > > MESSIANIC JUDAISM is the belief that Yeshua is the redeemer spoken of >in the Tenach [O.T.]. That He is the Messiah for whom our Jewish people >all over the world, and throughout history have been waiting for. > ... > Most Messianic Jews refrain from calling themselves "Christians", >which is Greek terminology. They prefer more Hebraic terms, such as >"Messianic Jews". The first use of the term Christian was in Antioch, >among the Gentile believers (Acts 11:26). ... At least the term "Christian" is biblical. "Messianic Jew" is not. Such a term makes an unwarranted distinction between Jew and Gentile in direct contradiction to Ephesian 2:14-16. Messianic Judaism is a cultic expression that attempts to isolate believers in the Lord Jesus along nationalistic/racial lines. The NT is clear in pointing out that such distinction no longer exists. The Antioch church, the Christian church, contained both Jew and Gentile. In fact, the first converts were from among the Jews (Acts 11:19ff). So you are quite incorrect in saying that "Christian" is a "Greek" term. For it was applied to both Jews and Gentiles in the early church. It was often a point of persecution by the unbelieving Jews against the Jewish Christians (cf. Rev. 2:9). Messianic Judaism has a defected view of the person and work of Jesus Christ, and the character of the people of God. By their insistence on observing the ceremonial/cultural laws of Moses as a continued religious distinctive, they show how they fail to understand the temporary nature of the Old Covenant signs and symbols. Much of the book of Hebrews is directed against such a position. It makes the point that all the Old Covenant customs not related to the moral attributes of God, the temple services, the priesthood, food, etc., were temporary types of the ultimate work of Jesus Christ. One Jesus, the divine Anti-type, had appeared, the types were no longer necessary. Christianity quickly lost it Judaistic character in order to fulfill Christ's command to "disciple all nations." (Matt. 28:19) Because of their return to Old Covenant ceremonies, I would submit that "Messianic Jews" are inadequately prepared to fulfill that command. I would respectfully suggest the reason most Jews find Christianity "unpalatable" today is the same reason many found it unpalatable during the time of Christ, i.e., it is contrary to the "tradition of the elders." (Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3; Col. 2:8). Modern Judaism is Talmud Judaism, based on a tradition quite separate from the Word of God. Attempting to become more like Talmudic Jews will not help Christians win converts from among the Jewish people, or the nations for that matter. -- Tom Albrecht
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/17/91)
I think you are a little hard on Messianic Judaism. I don't think it is fair to say that Messianic Judaism tries to separate the body of Christ. How much contact have you had with Messianics? There is diversity in the movement. So it is not fair to clump them all into one group and make such generalizations. i have a friend who is a Messianic (Gentile, actually I know a Messianic Jew as well. A Baptist, Messianic Jew.) He calls himself Christian. There is nothing wrong with keeping the law of Moses (as long as the proper motives are behind it.) The first century church in Jerusalem kept the law. For one thing, because it was natural for them. Paul and the other apostles did not go around trying to force dietary and Jewish cultural practices on Gentiles (except to the extent that it related to religious practices that were proper for both Jews and Gentiles, for example, the mikveh-Jesus commanded baptism. Laying hands on people, etc.) Why should we force Jewish Christians to become Gentiles? What is wrong with using the Hebrew root of the word Christian. I don't think that anyone should be ashamed to use the word Christian. But the Jewish word for Christ (Christos) is Messiah. Messianic is at least loosely based on the Hebrew word. Here is an interesting idea. When the apostles took the gospel to the Gentiles, they transliterated the name "Yeshua" into "Yesus," a word that could be written and pronounced in Greek. But they literally translated the word Messiah (the Annointed On ) into Christ. Why don't we call Jesus, Jesus the Annointed One instead of transliterating the Greek term? Link Hudson
gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow) (05/22/91)
In article <May.13.02.02.58.1991.12048@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: >The original to which I am responding appeared in soc.culture.jewish. My >comments are more appropriately directed to this forum. > >In article <1991May8.055514.4350@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> you write: >> >> MESSIANIC JUDAISM ______ WHAT IS IT? >> >> MESSIANIC JUDAISM is the belief that Yeshua is the redeemer spoken of >>in the Tenach [O.T.]. That He is the Messiah for whom our Jewish people >>all over the world, and throughout history have been waiting for. >> >... >> Most Messianic Jews refrain from calling themselves "Christians", >>which is Greek terminology. They prefer more Hebraic terms, such as >>"Messianic Jews". The first use of the term Christian was in Antioch, >>among the Gentile believers (Acts 11:26). ... > >At least the term "Christian" is biblical. "Messianic Jew" is not. Such a >term makes an unwarranted distinction between Jew and Gentile in direct >contradiction to Ephesian 2:14-16. I wonder. According to Zondervan commentary Mat. 5:17 and Rom. 3:31 the O.T. standard of the law is not changed by the coming of Christ. The separation is one regarding ritually uncleanness. This means we can associate with our jewish brothers and sisters certainly opening the opportunity for dialog. Ihave encountered jews who based on the ephesian scriptuers mentioned refer to themselves as completed jews since in the Mathew scripture he says he has not abolished the law and the prophets but fulfilled them. In the sense when a Jew accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour he acepts JEsus as Messiah and is fulfilled or completed adn certainly messianic. IN the rom 3:31 scripture Paul regards himself as an upholder of the law. Rom chap 7 v1 refers to the upholdin gof the law regarding adultery adn marriage. Paul refers to us, gentiles, as the ingrafted branch. If Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" Romans 11:18 "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." Romans 11:19 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." Romans 11:20 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" >Messianic Judaism is a cultic >expression that attempts to isolate believers in the Lord Jesus along >nationalistic/racial lines. I believe a better indication of cultic doctrine is in the tenants of the messianic Jews beliefs regarding the blood of Christ. If the MJ does not believe that it is the blood of Christ that cleansed them from their sin and set them free from satans hold adn that this blood has not been applied to their hearts minds and souls as part of their salvation then I would be inclined to agree with you regarding the cultishness of MJ's. An theology that cannot accept teh direction application of the blood of Christ to their bodys, minds souls and spirits as part of their salvation have a problem. IF there is no blood there is no salvation because it is Christs blood that distinguishes his preincarnate existence to his incarnate existance as the eternal Son. 1 JOhn refers to the belief that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh as a tenant of true faith. >The NT is clear in pointing out that such >distinction no longer exists. I believe this is a spiritual distinction. YOu cna still tell a male from a female or a JEw from a greek. Gal 3:28 >The Antioch church, the Christian church, >contained both Jew and Gentile. In fact, the first converts were from >among the Jews (Acts 11:19ff). So you are quite incorrect in saying that >"Christian" is a "Greek" term. For it was applied to both Jews and >Gentiles in the early church. It was often a point of persecution by the >unbelieving Jews against the Jewish Christians (cf. Rev. 2:9). >Rom 2:28 refers to a true Jew being one in heart not in flesh. Is the term true Jew not suggested here? If one is a true Jew would they not accept Jesus as Messiah? I believe so . >Messianic Judaism has a defected view of the person and work of Jesus >Christ, and the character of the people of God. By their insistence on >observing the ceremonial/cultural laws of Moses as a continued religious >distinctive, they show how they fail to understand the temporary nature of >the Old Covenant signs and symbols. Do they sacrifice? Much of the book of Hebrews is >directed against such a position. It makes the point that all the Old >Covenant customs not related to the moral attributes of God, the temple >services, the priesthood, food, etc., were temporary types of the ultimate >work of Jesus Christ. One Jesus, the divine Anti-type, had appeared, the >types were no longer necessary. > >Christianity quickly lost it Judaistic character in order to fulfill >Christ's command to "disciple all nations." (Matt. 28:19) Because of >their return to Old Covenant ceremonies, I would submit that "Messianic >Jews" are inadequately prepared to fulfill that command. > I wont belive the messianic jews are not able to fulfill the great commsion unless they dont hold the basic doctrinal postions on the blood, the water and the spirit. >I would respectfully suggest the reason most Jews find Christianity >"unpalatable" today is the same reason many found it unpalatable during the >time of Christ, i.e., it is contrary to the "tradition of the elders." >(Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3; Col. 2:8). Modern Judaism is Talmud Judaism, based >on a tradition quite separate from the Word of God. Attempting to become >more like Talmudic Jews will not help Christians win converts from among >the Jewish people, or the nations for that matter. > > >Thre is a reference to ceremonial uncleanness above. Perhpas our MEssianic Jewish friend will write abck and mention some of his doctrinal views on the blood of Christ. linc james -- >Tom Albrecht
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/24/91)
Most of these conclusions about Messianic Judaism being a cult is based on faulty information and broad generalizations. MJ is a diverse movement. I know some who believe in blood atonment. You can't make generalizations about them like "Messianics don't believe in the blood atonement." There may be some heretics in the Messianic movement. I would not appreciate someone observing a scientologist and making the conclusion that all American Christians are members of cults. You can't make such generalizations. Link.