ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) (05/03/91)
This post concerns the demons. The demons appear in many references in the four gospels and the epistles (some versions of the Bible use devils rather than demons). Paul says concerning the religions of the nations (my little concordance is too small to include the reference): They of the Gentiles, they worship demons. Now what are they, and where did they come from? Let us start by examining Genesis 1:1-2. 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep ... These verses tell us that God created the heavens and the earth, and that the earth was a total shambles. But, Job 38:4, 7 says: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? The sons of God are the angels, which must have been created by God before he laid the foundations of the earth. But what else does verse 7 tell us? that the angels shouted for joy when God created the earth. Does it make any sense whatsoever that the angels should be shouting over a "without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep"? Not likely. God must have created a beautiful earth, with some kind of very intelligent creatures. Why do I say this? just keep on reading. When did Satan fall? Most likely between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. A third of the nagels followed him in his fall. Most likely he corrupted the creatures that lived on the earth at its creation, and they followed him. God, in judgment, more than likely devulged the world with water, as he did in the time of Noah. Thus, "darkness was on the face of the deep." The disimbodied spirits of these original creatures are the demons. Why are they so bad, because they followed Satan, and God had to judge. Bible scolars know, from calculating the years recorded in the Bible, that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. Yet, EVEN SCIENCE tells us that there was some kind of creature long before then. The problem is, that science does not have revelation in the Scriptures and has concluded that the only possible source of scientific evidence that they have found must mean that man is a descendant of the apes. They have the evidence, they just have no revelation. Now i don't hae time to go through the four Gospels and prove to you that these disebodied spirits, the demons, seek a body or they seek water. Why water, because this is the prison that God has imprisoned them in. God judged them by flood, as in the time of Noah, and imprisoned them there. that is why "darkness was upon the face of the DEEP." If you missed it, "DEEP." i have more proof. let us look at the Great White Throne judgment of God in Revelation chapter 20. Anybody that knows anything about the Bible knows that this judgment is after the millenium, the 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth, and is the judgment of the unbelievers (the Christians all having been judged at the end of the current age--the Age of the Gentiles--and before the millenium begins). Revelation 20:12-13 says: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delievered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Verse 13 is very important. it says that "the SEA gave up the dead which were in it." Which dead are in the SEA???? some may say, well those men that died at sea. But this makes absolutely no sense. Anyone with any knowledge of the Scriptures knows that the dead are kept in Hades; there being the bad part and there being Paradise (Luke 16:19-31; 23:43), the two portions of hades. (Now i know some of you believe that Christians all go to heaven, but I would like you to prove it to me from the Scriptures. If you look at Revelation chapter 4, the first ever view of heaven, you will not find a single Christian. it is only after the first rapture, when the overcoming Christians living at the end of this age are called up yonder to cast satan out of heaven (yes, Satan is there--see Job and remember that he sits in front of God accusing us day and night), that Revelation records any Christians being there.) So who are these dead that the sea gives up???? They must be the demons. Who else could they be???? Note also that verse 13 specifically states that "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in it." These of course are the unbelievers. Now if you don't believe me concerning where the demons come from and who they are then SCRIPTURALLY show me. MAKE SURE THAT IT IS SCRIPTURAL, people's undocumented opinions count as 0000. ----- Robert W. Johnson Computer center, The University of Turku, Turku Finland robert@kontu.utu.fi (InterNet) robert@firien.bitnet (BITNET) The preceeding is my opinion and may not express the opinion of my employer and furthermore has nothing to do with my employment. [The closest I can find to your initial reference is I Cor 10:20: ".. what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God" But that is speaking of specific pagan sacrifices. Paul is unlikely to make a blanket claim that all Gentiles worship demons, since in Rom 2:14ff we see that he believes that some of them worship God in their hearts. Indeed 1st Cent. Judaism as a whole had the concept of righteous Gentiles, who also had a place in the world to come. Perhaps you meant something more specific than Gentile, since after all almost all of us are Gentiles... --clh]
horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael C. Horsch) (05/05/91)
In article <May.3.02.46.03.1991.23836@athos.rutgers.edu> ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes:
:This post concerns the demons.
: [...]
:Now what are they, and where did they come from?
Demons are mythical creatures (I'd even say "metaphorical creatures").
The question "where did they come from?" entirely misses the point of
the myth (or metaphor). It's much more useful and interesting to ask:
"Why does scripture mention them?" and "What do these metaphorical
creatures represent today?" Then we can dispense with the metaphor
and deal with the real concerns that we've been able to identify.
: [...]
:Now if you don't believe me concerning where the demons come from and who
:they are then SCRIPTURALLY show me.
Scripture is not a source from which one can (or even should) prove
the existence of anything. Besides, asking someone to use scripture
to disprove the existence of something that scripture explicitly mentions
(even as a part of a myth) is as silly as asking someone to disprove the
existence of Calvin's tiger, Hobbes, using only the Sunday funnies.
:Robert W. Johnson
:Computer center, The University of Turku, Turku Finland
:robert@kontu.utu.fi (InterNet)
:robert@firien.bitnet (BITNET)
:
:The preceeding is my opinion and may not express the opinion of my employer
:and furthermore has nothing to do with my employment.
Mike (My employer is not responsible for my views, and vice versa)
--
Michael C. Horsch Department of Computer Science
horsch@cs.ubc.ca University of British Columbiatblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (05/07/91)
In article <May.5.00.43.50.1991.29128@athos.rutgers.edu> horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael C. Horsch) writes: >Demons are mythical creatures (I'd even say "metaphorical creatures"). >The question "where did they come from?" entirely misses the point of >the myth (or metaphor). It's much more useful and interesting to ask: >"Why does scripture mention them?" and "What do these metaphorical >creatures represent today?" Then we can dispense with the metaphor >and deal with the real concerns that we've been able to identify. This brings up an interesting point. My religious upbringing did not place great emphasis on Demons, or on Satan. On this board a number of us seem to believe ourselves too "enlightened" to believe in such creatures any more. Doesn't this seem strange to you? Much of the world has discarded belief in God, Jesus, angels, souls and the like as irrational. Yet many of us who believe in these entities choose not to believe in Satan or demons. I guess it's an outmoded way of thinking, but I strongly believe in duality. The existance of a God as a force for good almost demands the existance of a Devil as a force for evil. I also believe in continuity. If you believe in an incarnate soul, it would seem that some souls would be stronger, and others weaker. Some would lean towards good, and others evil. I guess this makes me a classic philosopher. For sake of argument, assume with me the existance of a Devil and demons. Faced with a battle against Heaven for control of the Earth how might they proceed? One major point of attack would need to be the church. What strategy? Well, when outnumbered, prey on your opponent's weakness. "Divide and Conquor", an old strategy, but a goodie. Isn't it amazing how Christians seem to fight as hard (if not harder) against other Christians as they do against those who hold faiths diametrically opposed to their own? A second strategy, "Diversion". Can't you just see it? One of Outland's little cockroaches with a little pitchfork whisperring in Christians' ears at night. "Don't worry about The Devil(TM) or Demons(TM), they don't even exist, or if they do they're very weak. No, don't worry about The Devil, he's not the problem, the problem is that church down the road! Sure, they *say* their Christians, but they aren't really! After all, they ... (believe X, or don't believe Y)." Can't you see that cockroach? "The Devil spreads evil by recording messages backwards in popular music." "The peace sign is actually a sign of Satan." (You get the idea.) I'm not saying you have to believe in Demons or the Devil, but wouldn't their existance help explain one or two little problems the church has? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
fluffy@buhub.bradley.edu (Jeffrey Waltersdorf) (05/08/91)
In <May.3.02.46.03.1991.23836@athos.rutgers.edu> ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: >If you look at Revelation chapter 4, the first ever view of heaven, you will >not find a single Christian. it is only after the first rapture, when the >overcoming Christians living at the end of this age are called up yonder to >cast satan out of heaven (yes, Satan is there--see Job and remember that >he sits in front of God accusing us day and night), that Revelation records I was always under the impression that Satan was already thrown out of Heaven, during the life of Jesus, from Revelations 12:7-9: And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (NIV) This would also explain the references throughout Revelations of Satan as he "who was, is not, but will be". Comments or other interpretations, anyone? "Nature has given the hamster (\-/) Your friendly neighborhood the greatest defense of all; /o_o\ 6-foot mutant rabid hamster, when cornered, it can make it- ( W ) Fluffy, aka Jeff Waltersdorf self look like a lump of oat bran." fluffy@buhub.bradley.edu <><
ROBERT@kontu.cc.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) (05/13/91)
< In <May.3.02.46.03.1991.23836@athos.rutgers.eduROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: >If you look at Revelation chapter 4, the first ever view of heaven, you will >not find a single Christian. it is only after the first rapture, when the >overcoming Christians living at the end of this age are called up yonder to >cast satan out of heaven (yes, Satan is there--see Job and remember that >he sits in front of God accusing us day and night), that Revelation records < I was always under the impression that Satan was already thrown < out of Heaven, during the life of Jesus, from Revelations 12:7-9: John, who wrote Rev. in approximately 90AD, wrote from chapter 4 of things that are to COME (Rev. 4:1). This means that the rest of the Book of Revalation is about the then future. To understand Rev. chapter 12 let us first look at Rev. 12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. Spiritually speaking, the woman in the Bible usually refers to the church (see Rev. chapters 21 and 22). The Church is full of Christ, thus to be "clothed with the sun" refers to this fact, that the Church is of and for Christ and that is represented here by the sun (from whence we get light, like as in Christ is the light). The moon is a body that has no light of its own, but reflects the sun's light. The moon here is thus the Church. The "crown of twelve stars" represents the twelve tribes of Isreal. This refers to the OT saints that were faithful to God, such as Abraham, Samuel, David, Daniel, etc. Thus this woman is the universal Church, that includes the OT saints and all the Christians who make up the Church since the Lord first breathed His life into His believers (John 20:22). This woman appears before Satan is cast out, thus Satan was not cast out during the life of Jesus. In fact, Satan is still not cast out. The woman must first bring forth a man child, which is composed of the overcoming believers (see Rev. chapters 2 and 3, which give details of Church history from the fist century to the end of this age (the age of the Gentiles)). This man child will be caught up, which means raptured, to cast Satan out of heaven. Now I know of no rapture that has yet occured, so this rapture will be in the future. It will occur just before the start of the tribulation (God, in His mercy, will not leave the stronger part of His Church here to enndure the tribulation, but He will take only those that are overcomers, full grown in Christ). The tribulation, spoken of both here in Revelation and Daniel, will last 7 years. It will be composed of two parts: the tribulation (lasting 3 1/2 years of natural calamities) and the great tribulation (lasting 3 1/2 years of supernatural calamities). Revelation covers this in great detail, and Daniel speaks of it. The tribulation in Revelation is likened to a harvest. Those Christians that are ready will be taken first (part of the man child). Those many Christians that are not ready will be taken as they are ready (full grown iin Christ). This means that there will be multiple raptures. As Christians mature in Christ under the hot burning sun of the tribulation they will be taken. At the start of the great tribulation the last Antichrist will become full evident. He will persecute and KILL many Christians (see Rev. 2.22-23, which verses specifically speak of the great tribulation). The Antichrist will rule Europe. Rev. 2:18-29 speak of the Church in Thyatira, which is really a brief history of the Catholic Church. The Antichrist will mainly kill those belonging to the Catholic Church, which is predominant in that part of Europe that he will rule. Later in Revelation it speaks of Babylon the Great being overthrown, this is the Catholic Church. Satan and his angels will be thrown out of heaven at the start of the great tribulation. Woe to the earth for 3 1/2 years. It is crazy for Christians to think that they go to heaven when they die. There is war in heaven right now, between God's angels and Satan's angels. Christians go to Paradise when they die, to Abbraham's bussom, just as the Lord did when He died. This war will not be resolved in heaven until the overcomers are raptured to throw him out (this is God's way and God's glory, God is using the Church to defeat Satan and eventually the Church will become the bride of Christ (the woman (Rev. 12:1 and Rev. chapters 21 and 22)). If this all does not make sense to you then you must read authorities on the Book of Revelation. With the right teachings it is all very clear. < And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against < the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not < strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon < was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who < leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his < angels with him. (NIV) < This would also explain the references throughout Revelations of Satan <as he "who was, is not, but will be". These verses refer explicitly to the last Antichrist. As I have written before, the last Antichrist will be raised up in Europe, be killed, and be raised from the dead by Satan with the spirit of Nero. If you want deatils I have a posting I can send you on this. Comments or other interpretations, anyone? "Nature has given the hamster (\-/) Your friendly neighborhood the greatest defense of all; /o_o\ 6-foot mutant rabid hamster, when cornered, it can make it- ( W ) Fluffy, aka Jeff Waltersdorf self look like a lump of oat bran." fluffy@buhub.bradley.edu <>< ----- Robert W. Johnson Computer center, The University of Turku, Turku Finland robert@kontu.utu.fi (InterNet) robert@firien.bitnet (BITNET) The preceeding is my opinion and may not express the opinion of my employer and furthermore has nothing to do with my employment.
boudreau@sunbow.central.sun.com (Val Boudreau) (05/13/91)
In article <May.7.00.43.07.1991.14904@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >In article <May.5.00.43.50.1991.29128@athos.rutgers.edu> horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael C. Horsch) writes: >>Demons are mythical creatures (I'd even say "metaphorical creatures"). >>The question "where did they come from?" entirely misses the point of >>the myth (or metaphor). It's much more useful and interesting to ask: >>"Why does scripture mention them?" and "What do these metaphorical >>creatures represent today?" Then we can dispense with the metaphor >>and deal with the real concerns that we've been able to identify. I have come into this conversation late - if I am reading the above correctly, you are stating that demons are creatures which don't exist, but are mentioned in the Bible for allegoric purpose only. The Bible does explain who they are - they are angels, such as Satan, which have which have fallen. Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was thrown down, that acient serpent, who is called the Devil or Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." If you truly believe in the word of God then you must believe in the existence of Satan and his demons. One of Satan's greatest strategies is to make the world not believe in himself, as well as not in God. Your not much of a threat to something that you don't believe in. Regards, Val Boudreau -- ************************************************************************* * Val Boudreau * "Be careful... I'm an axe victim, * * Sun Microsystems, Inc. * Hung up on these silver strings..." * * vboudreau@sunbow.east.sun.com * Bill Nelson / Be Bop Deluxe *
horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael Horsch) (05/14/91)
In article <May.13.02.55.41.1991.12685@athos.rutgers.edu> boudreau@sunbow.central.sun.com (Val Boudreau) writes: :>In article <May.5.00.43.50.1991.29128@athos.rutgers.edu> horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael C. Horsch) writes: :>Demons are mythical creatures (I'd even say "metaphorical creatures"). :>The question "where did they come from?" entirely misses the point of :>the myth (or metaphor). It's much more useful and interesting to ask: :>"Why does scripture mention them?" and "What do these metaphorical :>creatures represent today?" Then we can dispense with the metaphor :>and deal with the real concerns that we've been able to identify. : :I have come into this conversation late - if I am reading the above :correctly, you are stating that demons are creatures which don't exist, :but are mentioned in the Bible for allegoric purpose only. :[...] You almost have it the way I meant it. I am claiming that literal demons, real bad supernatural creatures, you know, don't really exist. This is not to say anything about why the writers of the Bible wrote about them. In their context (as a culture whose mythos included these creatures) they are quite reasonable. In our culture, with our mythos of "science and technology" we have nothing to say about demons as literal creatures, and it is legitimate to treat them as metaphor. We can pretend that demons are still part of our mythos today, but I don't think it is really necessary. I can identify several "demons" which "harass" me from time to time. These are attitudes, conscious and unconscious, learned and instinctive, which cause me to sin. If you want to call this literally, then we're talking about the same thing anyway. The important part is not what we call them, but how we deal with them, right? Mike (just ask me) -- Michael C. Horsch Department of Computer Science horsch@cs.ubc.ca University of British Columbia
hbryanf@se7.cs.nps.navy.mil (howard bryan) (05/17/91)
The nomenclature used in the Bible is not always very descriptive. Any force outside of nature was considered to have supernatural guidance, which from the perspective of the writers is not entirely incorrect. What would these men think of mankind's technology at present? Wouldn't we be considered angels or demons?
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/17/91)
I have several problems with your interpretation of Revelations. For one thing, what Scriptures do you use to day that Satan is warring in heaven at this very minute? The Scriptures do not say that this battle will take thousands of years. I seem to recall that Satan is called the prince of the powers of the air. If Satan is in battle now, then how can he control his own kingdom? Why do you say that the Antichrist will rule Europe?
boudreau@gandalf.central.sun.com (Val Boudreau) (05/24/91)
>You almost have it the way I meant it. I am claiming that literal >demons, real bad supernatural creatures, you know, don't really >exist. This is not to say anything about why the writers of the >Bible wrote about them. In their context (as a culture whose mythos >included these creatures) they are quite reasonable. In our culture, >with our mythos of "science and technology" we have nothing to say >about demons as literal creatures, and it is legitimate to treat >them as metaphor. We can pretend that demons are still part of our >mythos today, but I don't think it is really necessary. > >I can identify several "demons" which "harass" me from time to time. >These are attitudes, conscious and unconscious, learned and instinctive, >which cause me to sin. If you want to call this literally, then we're >talking about the same thing anyway. The important part is not what we >call them, but how we deal with them, right? > I tend to disagree with your comments on this. When the Bible tells of Jesus casting out demons from a person, I do not believe he was casting a conscious and/or unconscious attitude from the person, but casting a physical supernatural being (fallen angels in this case). The demons (Legion) that he cast from the one man into the pigs surely wasn't an attitude. I almost get the feeling that you are trying to say that "science and technology" has disproved many of the writings of the Bible. I also disagree on this point. The Bible doesn't make any contradications to science, such as a statement like "the world is flat". Anywhere that people feel that there is a contradiction is most likely an area where mankind truly doesn't see the big picture. There are alot of areas which are grey to mankind. Regards, Val Boudreau