ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu (05/07/91)
Christian rock is a hot new style very fitting for the times of today. One
of the most dirtiest tricks of Satan is decieving people into social movements
that go against God's plans. Satan can usually succeed when God's people do
not know and are not grounded in the Word of God (The Bible).
One way that Satan can decieve people is through pleasing the flesh with
"Christian" Rock. Is Christian Rock really Christian? Or is it a COUNTERFEIT
from Satan? Satan was created as a musical being (and still works through
music apparently):
EZEKIEL 28:13--
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was
thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the
onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle,
andgold: the workmanship of thy *TABRETS* and of thy *PIPES* was
prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Time and time again, "Christian" rock has mocked the Bible through
disobeying it.
First of all, Christian rock uses the same styles and hard rocky drum
beats as its secular counterpart. If I had not known English and I listened
to that American "Christian" rock trash (!) of today I would have just
recognized it ordinary rock music because that's just what it is. The Bible
tells us not to be like the world (1John 2:15-16, James 4:4), but "Christian"
rock copies secular styles. Rock music style is based on pride and rebellion
against godly authority. It is equivalent to witchcraft (1Samuel 15:23).
There is no such thing as a "good" rebellion. Christian rock rebels against
God by being so much like the world in its style. Remember that it was not
the rocky, harsh, "Let's-Party-For-Jesus," music that drove the evil spirit
away from Saul, but it was David's SOFT harp music that made it leave
(Samuel 16:23).
The purpose of music is to please and glorify God (Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19-20).
But it seems that some "Christian" artists don't want to do this. Instead,
they glorify the devil. One of Keith Green's songs (I don't know the title)
pokes fun at the devil while making glorifications like "YOU lied!" The devil
is a liar but Why put that fact into music? The devil was probably very
flattered by this song. STRYPER'S song "The Hell With The Devil" tramples
upon scripture too by poking fun at the devil. Why do people rejoice and make
fun of Satan and demons? I don't know where they got that idea. The Bible
tells us NOT TO DO SO--- Luke 10:20. By not following God's Word, people will
(un)intentionally give a foot-hold to Satan.
Music was NOT the means ordained by God to get people saved. Preaching is!
(1Corinth. 1:21). Many people love to go to rock concerts because it pleases
their fleshly desires. "Christian" rock replaces true worship with the
counterfeit of pleasing the flesh. No one can please God in the flesh.
"Christian" rock concerts are definitely very complicated religious ceremonies,
BUT YET, MANY TAKE PART IN THEM. "Christian" Rock & Roll is NOT a narrow gate.
Millions follow. (see Matthew 7:13-14)
So, if you're a born-again, Bible-believing, saved Christian, and are
listening to this slop, do you feel cut to the heart? Don't let this tug in
your spirit wear off. Get down on your knees and REPENT! God will be pleased.
Don't sell your tapes and CD's that contain this junk (causing others to
stumble). Destroy the devil's plan in its tracks... step on them and destroy
those tapes and render them unusable for anyone else.
Now, what if you're not responding to the Word of God? Let's say you already
asked God and got an OK response. I suggest you turn to Ezekiel 14:1-5. If
"Christian" Rock is an idol, God will tell you JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR!
You should have known better! We're under the New Covenant, remember?
I've only touched the tip of the iceberg on how bad "Christian" Rock is.
It's not just like the world, IT IS THE WORLD!
Going all the way with God will cost you all your idols! Jesus went all
the way for us and that is why he could say "the prince of this world
cometh, and hath NOTHING in me."(John 14:30) Can all of you Christians say
that? Are you able to say, "Satan has nothing within me" without lying? If
not, there is something wrong. You need to go all the with God. He loves you.
It is not a very hard thing, unless you still want to flirt around with your
idols. When you want to be delivered, come to God. Otherwise forget it.
I do not condemn you people, as I battle against my own sin also. I know
from experience that the more I'm flirting with an idol, the more blind I get.
It is a horrible, miserable experience just to suffer as a result of
worshipping another god, with my mind thinking that it is impossible to
get out of idolatry. Reading the Word of God and recommitting my life to God
turned me around, Praise God!
True love from
Allen S. Cheung
(Jesus is Lord!)
[Because of problems with the way postings were coming in from
rec.music.christian, we got a number of responses without the original
complaint. I take it that this is -- if not the actual posting -- at
least equivalent to what we've been hearing responses to for the last
week. Probably we don't need to repeat the responses... --clh]lab@fibercom.com (Lance Beckner) (05/10/91)
In article <May.7.00.01.22.1991.8143@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > Christian rock is a hot new style very fitting for the times of today. One >of the most dirtiest tricks of Satan is decieving people into social movements >that go against God's plans. Agreed. He walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8) > Satan can usually succeed when God's people do >not know and are not grounded in the Word of God (The Bible). I couldn't agree more! That's why I insist that scripture is the final authority in matters such as these. > One way that Satan can decieve people is through pleasing the flesh with >"Christian" Rock. Is Christian Rock really Christian? Or is it a COUNTERFEIT >from Satan? Satan was created as a musical being (and still works through >music apparently): This is a good question. And certainly worthy of investigation. > EZEKIEL 28:13-- > Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was > thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the > onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, > andgold: the workmanship of thy *TABRETS* and of thy *PIPES* was > prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Obviously, Satan Knows Music. One needs only to listen to *any* secular radio station and hear the songs that present lifestyles contrary to the teachings of Christ. This is true regardless of the STYLE of music. Rock, Pop, Country-Western, even Easy Listening radio stations play music with un-christian messages. > Time and time again, "Christian" rock has mocked the Bible through >disobeying it. While this may or may not be true (I'm not familiar with the examples that you give), the fact that some rock music, claiming to be christian, does not give a scripturally accurate message (or worse, messages contrary to scripture) does not mean the all christian rock is the work of the devil. > First of all, Christian rock uses the same styles and hard rocky drum >beats as its secular counterpart. Which is probably why they call it Rock :-). Christian "Country-Western" music uses the same twangy guitar styles as its secular counterpart. Christian "Easy Listening" uses the same piano, and soft instruments as its secular counterpart. For every type of music that exists in the world, there is probably a christian counterpart. Likewise, for every type of Christian music (yes, including Hymns) there is a STYLE of music closely related to it in the secular world. It would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to label a "style" of music as being exclusively christian or non-christian. > If I had not known English and I listened >to that American "Christian" rock trash (!) of today I would have just >recognized it ordinary rock music because that's just what it is. And if I didn't know English and heard American "Christian" (fill in the style) I would recognize it as that style. Without an understanding of the lyrics, the message is lost. If I'm not mistaken, it is the MESSAGE that determines whether a song is Christian or not. > The Bible >tells us not to be like the world (1John 2:15-16, James 4:4), but "Christian" >rock copies secular styles. One could easily argue: "Since the world listens to music, and since we should not be like the world, Christians should not listen to music." Why limit it to a particular style? > Rock music style is based on pride and rebellion >against godly authority. It is equivalent to witchcraft (1Samuel 15:23). I would a appreciate you backing up this statement with scriptural support. More specifically, if you could provide me with scriptural support of God condemning any particular style of music (or even any particular musical instrument), I would be most grateful. > The purpose of music is to please and glorify God (Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19-20). Right. Also, the edification of believers is implied. >But it seems that some "Christian" artists don't want to do this. Instead, [stuff about songs calling the Devil a liar deleted] Personally, I don't see how calling the Devil a liar "glorifies" him. It would certainly serve as a reminder to believers and possibly inform non- believers for the first time. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with either of these songs. However, often songs of this type will sing of Jesus' victory over Satan (songworthy material, IMHO). They will also highlight the attributes of Christ while pointing out the tricks that Satan tries to use. Also, songs will often remind us that we are no longer slaves to sin, but, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, have power over sin in our lives. This is not necessarily what Luke 10:20 is referring to. Though, we should look at the message and the context of the lyrics in question and be careful that we are heeding the words of our Lord. > Music was NOT the means ordained by God to get people saved. Preaching is! First, using music (and the lyrics therein) to "preach" is not prohibited. But, more importantly, music IS a means to praise God and to build up believers. (see above) > No one can please God in the flesh. True, but how can you accurately (and with scriptural support) say that one type of music is more "in the flesh" than another? >"Christian" rock concerts are definitely very complicated religious ceremonies, >BUT YET, MANY TAKE PART IN THEM. "Christian" Rock & Roll is NOT a narrow gate. >Millions follow. (see Matthew 7:13-14) This is obviously your opinion. Once again, I would like to see any biblical support for this view. > So, if you're a born-again, Bible-believing, saved Christian, and are >listening to this slop, do you feel cut to the heart? NO! > Don't let this tug in >your spirit wear off. Get down on your knees and REPENT! God will be pleased. Could you offer book, chapter and verse please? > Now, what if you're not responding to the Word of God? Let's say you already >asked God and got an OK response. I suggest you turn to Ezekiel 14:1-5. If >"Christian" Rock is an idol, God will tell you JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR! >You should have known better! We're under the New Covenant, remember? > I've only touched the tip of the iceberg on how bad "Christian" Rock is. >It's not just like the world, IT IS THE WORLD! What if I AM responding to the Word of God? What if, more than anything, I want to KNOW the will of God and do it? What if He has not condemned a certain style of music either through His word or to me personally as I pray to know His will? I suggest you turn to Matthew 7:7-8. If you seek God's will, you will find it, if you ask for guidance in this area, you will receive it. > I do not condemn you people, as I battle against my own sin also. I know Accusing a group of people you do not know of being "idol worshippers" because they enjoy a style of music that does not appeal to you seems a lot like condemnation to me. Let me just say once again, that if you can biblically support your idea that Christian Rock is against God's will, I'll be more than willing to listen. Also, keep in mind that what appeals to you may not appeal to me (and vice versa). Differing "tastes" and "preferences" within the body of Christ does not necessarily constitute sin. While we must always be careful to recognize sin for what it is (the Devil is crafty), we must also be careful not to judge others just because they are not carbon copies of ourselves. Finally, when we make Jesus our Lord (or more accurately, when we yield to His Lordship), we must also keep in mind that He is the Lord over our brothers and sisters as well. We must always be careful that we are not trying to lord over fellow believers. May the Love of Christ dwell in you heart richly. Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) (05/10/91)
In article <May.7.00.01.22.1991.8143@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > Christian rock is a hot new style very fitting for the times of today. One >of the most dirtiest tricks of Satan is decieving people into social movements >that go against God's plans. Satan can usually succeed when God's people do >not know and are not grounded in the Word of God (The Bible). . . . > Time and time again, "Christian" rock has mocked the Bible through >disobeying it. > First of all, Christian rock uses the same styles and hard rocky drum >beats as its secular counterpart. If I had not known English and I listened >to that American "Christian" rock trash (!) of today I would have just >recognized it ordinary rock music because that's just what it is. The Bible >tells us not to be like the world (1John 2:15-16, James 4:4), but "Christian" >rock copies secular styles. Rock music style is based on pride and rebellion >against godly authority. It is equivalent to witchcraft (1Samuel 15:23). >There is no such thing as a "good" rebellion. Christian rock rebels against >God by being so much like the world in its style. Remember that it was not >the rocky, harsh, "Let's-Party-For-Jesus," music that drove the evil spirit >away from Saul, but it was David's SOFT harp music that made it leave >(Samuel 16:23). Then let's dump gospel music, Bach's and Handel's orchestral music as well. These styles of music are not soft harp music. These styles were at one time controversial, as is Christian rock is today. For example, gospel is based on Afro-American spiritual music of the 18th and 19th centuries. The black spiritual style has its roots in African tribal music. Do we reject gospel music because its style is rooted in a non-Christian source? When Bach and Handel first composed their masterpieces of orchestral music in honor of God, they were rejected by a group who only recognised the Gregorian chant as an acceptable music style to worship God. They took the position that orchestral music was unnacceptable because of its secular origins. They also saw it as rebellion against the Church. To reject the Christian rock groups solely for stylistic reasons is ludicrous. Look to the message behind the style, before rejecting a piece of music as Satanic. Look to the hearts of the musicians before calling them spiritual rebels. Many people have come to know the Lord through rock music. My sister was first attracted to the Lord through "Jesus Christ Superstar." She is now a born-again Christian, and although she sees J.C.S. as a secular piece, she believes that it was instrumental in her first being turned on to the Lord. -Jeff Fields
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (05/10/91)
In article <May.7.00.01.22.1991.8143@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
+
+ Christian rock is a hot new style very fitting for the times of today. One
+of the most dirtiest tricks of Satan is decieving people into social movements
+that go against God's plans. Satan can usually succeed when God's people do
+not know and are not grounded in the Word of God (The Bible).
I presume you believe C.S. Lewis' "Scrwetape Letters" to be live and
direct from Damnation Central. The book is a parody on what a minion
of the Devil might write to his boss. It is rather funny at times
and does not 'walk in mourning clothes'.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edugt1104c@prism.gatech.edu (SILVERT,STANLEY DAVID JR) (05/11/91)
On the off chance that the author is not joking, I would like to resspond. In article <May.7.00.01.22.1991.8143@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > One way that Satan can decieve people is through pleasing the flesh with >"Christian" Rock. Is Christian Rock really Christian? Or is it a COUNTERFEIT >from Satan? Satan was created as a musical being (and still works through >music apparently): > EZEKIEL 28:13-- (* omitted for brevity *) > So I guess this means that ALL music is from Satan -- better quit playing Mozart in church! > First of all, Christian rock uses the same styles and hard rocky drum >beats as its secular counterpart. If I had not known English and I listened Yes, and so does the gospel music heard in black churches all accross the American South. This music has been around for at least 125 years. >recognized it ordinary rock music because that's just what it is. The Bible >tells us not to be like the world (1John 2:15-16, James 4:4), but "Christian" >rock copies secular styles. Rock music style is based on pride and rebellion >against godly authority. It is equivalent to witchcraft (1Samuel 15:23). >There is no such thing as a "good" rebellion. Christian rock rebels against >God by being so much like the world in its style. Remember that it was not First of all, why are you deciding what it means to be like the world? If I use toothpaste am I like the world? Is there toothpaste in heaven? :-) Second, if all rebellion is bad then I guess the American Revolution was bad, the Exodous was bad, and Jesus himself was bad. (JC is my favorite rebel!) > The purpose of music is to please and glorify God (Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19-20). I thought you said music came from Satan? >your spirit wear off. Get down on your knees and REPENT! God will be pleased. You KNOW what pleases God? Can I have your autograph? >Don't sell your tapes and CD's that contain this junk (causing others to >stumble). Destroy the devil's plan in its tracks... step on them and destroy >those tapes and render them unusable for anyone else. Brief pause for laughter. :-) :-) :-) > I've only touched the tip of the iceberg on how bad "Christian" Rock is. I don't like Christian Rock either, but your arguments are so pitiful. I'm sorry for railing you like this, but I really think that you need to realize that as you label things as "of the Devil" just because you don't like them you show your ignorance and give Christians a bad name in the process. Please try to understand that people are different and come to know God in different ways. > I do not condemn you people, as I battle against my own sin also. I know You could have fooled me! > >True love from >Allen S. Cheung >(Jesus is Lord!) Well, at least you got that one right. -- Stan Silvert Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt1104c ARPA: gt1104c@prism.gatech.edu
srh@cblph.att.com (Steven R Houser) (05/13/91)
In article <May.10.03.21.53.1991.6681@athos.rutgers.edu> jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) writes: >To reject the Christian rock groups solely for stylistic reasons is >ludicrous. Look to the message behind the style, before rejecting a >piece of music as Satanic. Look to the hearts of the musicians before >calling them spiritual rebels. Right. The original poster's attitude is nothing less than Pharisaical. Another tidbit that has some bearing on this discussion: I heard that many of the melodies of Charles Wesley's hymns were borrowed from old tavern songs. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Personally, I find most Christian rock far too tame. Too much of a Top-40 sound. I still like to listen to loud, raucous groups like Led Zeppelin and the Pretenders. I see nothing wrong with this. I always listen to the music critically. It's not like I'm taken in by it or anything. It's just fun. Christians are supposed to not "love the things of the world." But Paul also tells us not to submit to decrees like "do not handle, do not taste, do not touch, according to the teachings of men." Avoiding fun, morally-neutral things that the world has to offer is not spiritual. It's asceticism--a distinctly non-Christian teaching. Steve -- Steve Houser | All opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. uunet!att!cblph!srh | (614)-860-2133 | [I can't speak for Wesley, but I can say that a lot of church music from the Renaissance and earlier is polyphonic invention based on tenors that were originally secular melodies. --clh]
rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) (05/13/91)
One of the tacks taken by some who are against CR is that it violates the "ways of G-d" as gleaned from reading the Book. For example, one that has been brought up is that secular rock is "proud" i.e. the lyric content is often arrogant about one aspect or another of human personality. G-d calls us to be humble. CR shares this arrogance (debatable), therefore... Maybe with a little more thought I could frame this better, but could someone pick this up and run a little further about how they think CR violates the "Ways of G-d" if no the Word. (I personally don't think so for the whole category of CR) Bobby - akgua!rjb
bertsche@llnl.gov (Kirk Bertsche) (05/14/91)
In article <May.13.01.25.31.1991.11674@athos.rutgers.edu> srh@cblph.att.com (Steven R Houser) writes: > Another tidbit that has some bearing on this discussion: I heard that many > of the melodies of Charles Wesley's hymns were borrowed from old tavern > songs. Can anyone confirm or refute this? I've never heard this about Wesley. It is commonly claimed about Martin Luther, though. I believe this claim was popularized by Larry Norman (he mentioned it in the jacket of one of his early albums). I haven't checked up on Larry Norman, but he probably knows what he's talking about. Kirk Bertsche (bertsche@llnl.gov) Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory P.O. Box 808 L-397 Livermore, CA 94551-0808
cca04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (P.J. Mitchell) (05/17/91)
From article <May.13.01.25.31.1991.11674@athos.rutgers.edu>, by srh@cblph.att.com (Steven R Houser): > Another tidbit that has some bearing on this discussion: I heard that many > of the melodies of Charles Wesley's hymns were borrowed from old tavern > songs. Can anyone confirm or refute this? > > [I can't speak for Wesley, but I can say that a lot of church music > from the Renaissance and earlier is polyphonic invention based on > tenors that were originally secular melodies. --clh] It is quite true that Wesley used "popular" tunes, which would have been sung by people in taverns/pubs/bars. I can see nothing whatsoever wrong with this, and he said he did it so that the congregations at his open air services would be able to sing his hymns as they would already know the tunes. These congregations were mainly composed of working people who had no positive experience of "church" and most certainly wouldn't have known the contemporaneous hymns and their tunes. Indeed many of the would probably been put off in a big way if Wesley had used such tunes. In a wider context this is a fine example of taking the Gospel to the people and not setting up your own stall and expecting the poeple to come to you. To condem people because they like a tune that you don't is just arrogant and exclusive. In my opinion we NEED many more Christians in popular music of all types, because people listen to music, and condeming such music only alienates those who like it instead of drawing them in. -- Paul Mitchell (CMA#86(18) MAG#65715 DoD#0145) | Physics Department, JANET: p.j.mitchell@uk.ac.keele.seq1 | Keele University, Keele, USENET: p.j.mitchell@seq1.keele.ac.uk | Staffordshire, ST5 5BG, U.K. BITNET: p.j.mitchell%seq1.keele.ac.uk@ukacrl | (+44 or 0)782 621111 ext 3966
harling@pictel.uucp (Dan Harling) (05/26/91)
In article <May.10.23.35.47.1991.27690@athos.rutgers.edu>, hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Stan Silvert) writes: > In article <May.7.00.01.22.1991.8143@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > > >your spirit wear off. Get down on your knees and REPENT! God will be pleased. > > You KNOW what pleases God? Can I have your autograph? He has shown thee, O Man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee: To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God. (paraphrase mine) Of course, it is more difficult than it sounds in practice... :-) Apart from that nit-pick, I have to say that I agree 100% (or more) with the rest of your article. I know too many people who think that being "not of the world" means to be different in some superficial way, like listening only to certain styles of music, or wearing only certain kinds of clothing. You are correct to point out that there are many such areas in which Christians have no problem (such as eating food: how many of us still eat food, when we KNOW that all the pagans are doing it?). It is inconsistent to focus on one area to the exclusion of another. Perhaps that's not really what "not of the world" means after all... How about living a life that displays love and hope? I do not mean wearing "Jesus loves you" buttons, or "Honk if you love Jesus" bumper stickers. I mean being a good friend to someone who needs you; encouraging those around you; overflowing with love to the point that people just HAVE to ask you where it comes from (and then you can tell them, after you have shown that it works. End of Evangelism 101. Please leave the course evaluations in my mailbox). I think that, if we put as much effort into living exemplary lives as we often spend tilting at windmills, we would not be wondering why the world seems to have passed by Christianity, as if it had outgrown it. If you'll pray for me, that I will do a better job of this, I will pray for you. (Actually, I'll pray anyway, but a covenant has a way of reminding you, know what I mean?) 'Til We Meet Again, ______________________________________________________________________ Daniel A. Harling PictureTel, Inc. Rockport, MA Peabody, MA Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of PictureTel, Inc.; they are MINE, ALL MINE! (So there.) ---- === ====