psburns@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) (12/24/90)
Tis true that God is a merciful, loving God. But he is also a perfectly just and righteous God who cannot tolerate any evil or sin in his presence. How often in the old Testament does one read about his anger burning against a group of people? God does get angry as well. Remember, Jesus even erupted in anger in the temple at the atrocities of how the people had turned the house of God into "a den of thieves." But being limited, imperfect creatures who have inherited a sinful nature from our first parents, Adam and Eve, we simply do not have sufficient good within us to satisfy God's demand for righteousness. When Lucifer fell from his position of glory in heaven, God banished him to that horrible existence we call hell, because, again, God would not tolerate that evil imperfection in his Holy presence. The same fate awaits those who choose to refuse Jesus's atoning death as payment to satisfy God's righteousness. God is indeed a loving God, and it is his will that not one of us perish, i.e, be subjected to an eternity without him. He will orchestrate all kinds of events in our lives to make us aware of his presence in our live, and to present us with the opportunity to choose to live our live for him. It is also my belief, based on my understanding of Scritpure, that once we accept Jesus into our hearts, and choose to live for him, that we are guaranteed eternal life in his presence in heaven, that assurance cannot be taken from us, and we are gifted with special measures of grace and power to live a life pleasing to him. Of course there is no guarantee that we will always be successful in that endeaovor. We will stumble, sin, fail and displease a Holy and righteous God. But because of Jesus' death on the cross, WE HAVE FORGIVENESS. AMEN AND AMEN!!
shallenb@news.colorado.edu (Nualle) (05/08/91)
As far as I can tell, when rational adult humans refer to hell, they mean the burning, sulphurous ocean which sits as a threat to sinners, or infidels which most of us were taught of as children. I find that idea absurd. Some, having given hell a modicum of thought, refer to an eternal state of separation from God. Though I respect this idea a great deal more, it still doesn't account for an omnipresent God --and before I get flamed for that (no pun intended)-- let me quote David (in loose translation) "Wherever I go, even to Sheol, there you are [, God]." In the light of that reference (I forget which psalm it's from), I'd like to put out my own theory of Heaven & Hell, for your reactions. I assume of God two things: that They are omnipresent, and that They are, in nature, only God and no other thing -- that God is pure God. The theory is this: In eternity, God will discontinue the forbearance They have shown throughout time and all creatures will experience Them in Their divine fullness. No part of the person or being of God will be hidden. Heaven, then, would be the experience of God's whole self and being so like Them that the experience amounts to bliss. (But no, I don't believe in the existentialist corrolary -- that that bliss constists in melding into and together with God, becoming part of God.) Hell would be experiencing all of God and being fundamentally inconsistent with Them. It is God's universe. They are the paradigm. To be eternally and irreconcilably inconsistent with a pervasive God would be an unspeakably painful way to be. In short -- I think hell is not eternal separation from God -- an atheist would enjoy nothing better. Nor do I interpret "eternal death" to mean a death-of-the-soul and then non-existence. I interpret it as being eternally in process of dying. So there it is. Whadda y'all think? Responses welcome both on the forum and through email. (shallenb@spot.colorado.edu) [There's a variety of concepts of hell. Issues that have come up here in the past are: - hell as a separate "place" vs. a state of existence. I.e. those in hell might be in the same "place" as those in heaven, but because of different spiritual conditions it would be hell for them. - hell as imposed by God vs. as chosen or created by the inhabitants - hell as lasting forever vs. being annihilation In fact I doubt that many of our readers think the sulpher is real, physical sulphur. However we certainly have plenty of people who think it is symbolic of a very unpleasant situation into which people are put by God as punishment. --clh]
lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (05/10/91)
In article <May.8.03.29.47.1991.10307@athos.rutgers.edu> shallenb@news.colorado.edu (Nualle) writes: > As far as I can tell, when rational adult humans refer to hell, they >mean the burning, sulphurous ocean which sits as a threat to sinners, or >infidels which most of us were taught of as children. > > I find that idea absurd. I also find that I'm beginning to differ with the popular notion of what Hell is (i.e. fire, brimstone, etc.) And our moderator writes: >[There's a variety of concepts of hell. Issues that have come up >here in the past are: ... > - hell as lasting forever vs. being annihilation >--clh] So, I've looked through the Bible a bit on this, and found this: Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Revelation 20:10,14 "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" "And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." Anyway, looking at this has brought me to the conclusion that perhaps hell is more of an incinerator and than an eternal torture chamber. But, this is basically hinges upon the real meanings of the words 'destroy' in Matt 10:28 and 'second death' in Rev. 20:14. Does anybody want to volunteer to look these verses up and explain what the actual Greek says? Thanks, Logan -- // # "He said that He had your number; you cut the telephone line. \X/ # You said you needed a reason; He said 'there ain't much time.' Logan # You kept trying to avoid it; He kept knocking on the door. Shaw # In a flash it was over; you were a prisoner of war." -Rez Band
torbakke@loke.idt.unit.no (Torbjoern Bakke) (05/13/91)
In article <May.10.03.20.36.1991.6656@athos.rutgers.edu> lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes: > [... deleted stuff ...] > > Anyway, looking at this has brought me to the conclusion that perhaps > hell is more of an incinerator and than an eternal torture chamber. It occured to me that it might be both an incinerator and and eternal torture chamber. How is this possible?? Let us se what the bible says: Rev 19.20: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet .... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Rev 20.10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." So - these verses tells us that the false prophet, the beast and the devil will be tormented forever. Maybe they have eternal life, and because of this they will not die, not even in that lake of fire. It is a fire that never shall be quenched, so they will be in the fire forever. These verses does not tell us that human souls will be tormented forever. Let us now read on: Rev 20.14-15: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 21.7-8: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbeleaving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH." What does this tell us? My interpretation is like this: Our bodies and souls are mortal. The lake of fire is the end of everything - it is the second death for the humans that are cast into it. The bible says that it is death, not an eternal life of suffering. I believe that those human beings that end up in the lake of fire will die instantly, they will not be tormented forever. I might be wrong, and I might have overlooked something important, so I certainly would like comments on these thoughts. God bless you all. ----- Torbjorn Bakke (Research Assistant) Internet: torbakke@idt.unit.no Div. of Computer Systems & Telematics torbakke@solan.unit.no Norwegian Institute of Technology Bitnet : TBAKKE@NORUNIT
sl87m@cc.usu.edu (The Barking Pumpkin Digital Gratification Ensemble) (05/23/91)
In article <May.13.03.55.53.1991.13240@athos.rutgers.edu>, torbakke@loke.idt.unit.no (Torbjoern Bakke) writes: > In article <May.10.03.20.36.1991.6656@athos.rutgers.edu> lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes: > >> [... deleted stuff ...] > So - these verses tells us that the false prophet, the beast and the > devil will be tormented forever. ... > These verses does not tell us that human souls will be > tormented forever. > > Rev 20.14-15: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This > is the SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written > in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." > > Rev 21.7-8: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be > his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and ... > shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire > and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH." The first death is the separation of the spirit from the body. This is a physical death. Its power to bind man was broken with Christ's resurrection. The second death is the separation of the spirit from God. This is a spiritual death. The fire and brimstone is figurative, describing the state of the soul forever separated from God, knowing what they could have had. This second death's power to bind man was broken with Christ's atonement if they accept him. The spirit of man is immortal. These are brief comments on my views, as I'm in a hurry. I hope that they make sense! TZMattareyay
trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) (05/24/91)
As most of us know, the Bible is an incredible book indeed. It even has
the potential of changing the life of the person willing to humble his/her
intellect and take God at his Word. This book, I think, must contain (and
has certainly inspired) all genres of literature. Poetry, tragedies,
drama, crime,.... you name it. But there is not very much humor
to be found.
Does God have a sense of humor? Or is 'humor' just a result of
our fallen nature? Or..?
Yesterday, I came across a couple of passages that certainly indicates
that God has a sense of humor. I laughed so much that tears were rolling.
I like the NASB versons better, but I only have the AV on my computer:
The first one is about Absalom that is out riding on his mule. Remeber: this
is not any ordinary fella, he was the KING at the time:
2 Samuel 18
9. And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode
upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a
great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was
taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that
[was] under him went away.
10 And a certain man saw [it], and told Joab, and said,
Behold, I saw Absalom hanging in an oak.
I hope that I'm not the ONLY one that sees the incredible humor in this
incident.
The next one is about that poor guy that fell asleep in church and
therefore fell three floors and killed himself:
Acts 20
9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named
Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was
long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from
the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Hilareous! Paul resurrects this gezer later, so
save your tears. This is Humor with a capital 'H'.
Has anybody else found any traces of humor in the Bible? Please share
them with me.
trondtorbakke@loke.idt.unit.no (Torbjoern Bakke) (05/24/91)
In article <May.22.21.13.13.1991.20950@athos.rutgers.edu> sl87m@cc.usu.edu (The Barking Pumpkin Digital Gratification Ensemble) writes: >The first death is the separation of the spirit from the body. This is a >physical death. Its power to bind man was broken with Christ's resurrection. >The second death is the separation of the spirit from God. This is a spiritual >death. The fire and brimstone is figurative, describing the state of the soul >forever separated from God, knowing what they could have had. This second >death's power to bind man was broken with Christ's atonement if they accept >him. >The spirit of man is immortal. Your first two paragraphs are very reasonable if you believe that the spirit of man is immortal. I would very much like to know what your basis for this point of view is. If you want to convince me that the spirit of man is immortal, please show me some quotes from the bible that support that point of view, or some that contradicts my point of view (preferably both). I am willing to admit my mistakes if I am proven wrong. >TZMattareyay -Torbjoern- -- ----- Torbjorn Bakke (Research Assistant) Internet: torbakke@idt.unit.no Div. of Computer Systems & Telematics torbakke@solan.unit.no Norwegian Institute of Technology
tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) (05/26/91)
In article <May.23.23.41.34.1991.22327@athos.rutgers.edu>, trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) writes: |>Has anybody else found any traces of humor in the Bible? Please share |>them with me. Personally, I love the exchange between God and Abraham over whether or not to destroy Soddom in Genesis 18. "But what if there are just 50 good men?" "Okay, I won't destroy the town if there are 50 good men!" "But what if there are just 45 good men then?" "All Right! I won't destroy the town if there are 45 good men!" "But what if..." You might want to check out a group called "The Fellowship of Merry Christians". Their interdenominational newsletter, "The Joyful Noiseletter" is chock full of religious humor. If you'd like subscription info, drop me a line. (Stuff in the noiseletter can be freely copied by members to be put into local newsletters, they include one-liners cartoons, articles, etc. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton