allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/13/91)
Iterested in solving a mystery? Henrs I could use your help. In 1915, Harold Williams wrote down the deathbed confession of Haji Yearam, an Armenian who lived at the foot of Mt. Ararat as a child. Haji told of three men who came to his village and asked for guides up the mountain. Haji and his father took them up to Noah's Ark. They were very unhappy to discover something that wasn't suposed to exist. They vowed not to tell anyone, or else. Haji figured that they were all dead, so he could safely tell the story. On November 8, 1918, Williams was reading in the Brockton Enterprise, Mass., when he found read of a deathbed confession of an English scientist who claimed to have found Noah's Ark. His story coroborated the story by Haji. He too, figured that everyone else was dead. The copies of both stories that Williams had were burned in a house fire several years later. so we are left with the word of Williams that they existed. However, He was not the only one to read of the scientist. At about the same time, the story appeared in a paper in Alabama (although which one is still a mystery). And, there are several other unconfirmed reports from various places across the US. The mystery I'm inviting you to join in solving is tracing the source of the newpaper articles. I've had the opportunity to search the Brockton Enterprise. And just as Williams said, in the lower, righ-hand corner of the back page (pg. 20) is....nothing, because that corner has been torn off. Someone else found something so interesting that they ignored all the local and international news of the ending of WWI and mutilated the only surviving copy of the paper. What could it be? But all is not lost. Considering that the same story appeared all across the country at about the same time, the sounce most likey is one of the wire services. The Brockton Enterprise almost exclusively used the UPI wire. So, if you can, look in all the papers in you neck of the woods. Especially those who used the UPI wire. The dateds to check are from about November 7 to 12, 1918. If you have access to the UPI archives in New York, by all means see what you can find. The major concern is; who is this english scientist? If we had a name, so much more could be done. If you are in England, one of the papers in London from that time is certainly the source for the UPI story. Oh how I wish I could get to London. If you find anything, or want mor information, or what ever, just reply to this posting, send me some email, or write me at: 7921 SE. 92nd Ave. #29 Portland, Oregon, USA 97266 Happy Hunting: C. Allen Roy
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/17/91)
Wouldn't a wooden ship have decayed into dust in 4000 years? What kind of climate does the mountain have. Does it have a climate that would preserve wood for that long? Could men have used the wood for firewood? Is it the kind of place where wood-eating insects would live? If Noah's ark really couldn't survive this long, then we can assume that he stories are false. Link Hudson
ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) (05/18/91)
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) writes: >In 1915, Harold Williams wrote down the deathbed confession of >Haji Yearam, an Armenian who lived at the foot of Mt. Ararat as a >child. Haji told of three men who came to his village and asked for >guides up the mountain. Haji and his father took them up to Noah's >Ark... Hi Callen I've found what I think is a good rule of thumb for judging these sort of Noah's Ark claims. Namely, if the claimer can't even get the biblical location of the Ark right you can stop listening. In particular, according to your description Williams claims that Haji had seen the ark on Mt Ararat. Bear in mind that there is no Mt Ararat mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Now Genesis 8 has the Ark landing in the Mountain*S* of Ararat (modern translations typically render this as something like the "Ararat Range"[*]), but if people like Williams expect such extreme claims to be taken seriously, the least that they can do is to get the minimal details of geography correct. Moreover, the mountain currently called Ararat has only been called that for the last few centuries (in English only? Does anyone know the Turkish/ Armenian names?). N [* NOTE: If you think this is a minor quibble, consider how safe you'd feel taking a flight to Denver with a navigator who spent his time looking for Mt Rocky. ;) ]
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/19/91)
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes: >Wouldn't a wooden ship have decayed into dust in 4000 years? What >kind of climate does the mountain have. Does it have a climate that >would preserve wood for that long? Could men have used the wood for >firewood? Is it the kind of place where wood-eating insects would >live? >If Noah's ark really couldn't survive this long, then we can assume >that he stories are false. Paul (or Link?) Thoes are excellent questions. The fact of the matter is that no one really knows if the Ark could have lasted this long. All we have to go by a the reported sightings by various persons. Some of the reports have been proven false, or fanciful, or just someone trying to get some fame. But some of the rports appear to be genuine, thou still unproven. These reports point toward Mt. Ararat (Agri Dag) in Turkey. That mountain has a permanant ice cap, which could be capable of preserving even organic matter for thousands of years. Some of the reports indicated that the Ark is exposed only a couple times a century during local drought conditions. Under such conditions, insects and man could have very little impact. I don't know where you're writing from, but if you have time, I'd sure appreciate you give the local papers a look. I've already checked out the LA Times, New York Times, London Times and many others. The article seems to have appeared only in some of the smaller papers across the continent. Looking forward to hearing from you again. Allen Royeecs eecs eecs
@vm.cc.purdue.edu:XWUU@PURCCVM (05/19/91)
The climate of mount Ararat in Turkey is dry and cold most of the year 'round. There is always ice and snow in the higher altitudes. It is not at all unlikely that good wood preserved in some sort of tar or pitch and further sealed in ice or prevented from decay by low humidity would still be around after 4000-5000 years. We have examples of seeds, wood, and even complete animal bodies being preserved in similar conditions for 1000-5000 years. Mammoths have been found "fresh-frozen" in the region of Siberia - completely intact (and edible). I believe that a complete baby mammoth was found in a mountainous region of Alaska around 20 years ago; conditions similar to thr higher altitudes of Turkey. In the recent past, several expeditions have attempted to find Noah's ark on this mountain. Some have outright failed to find it; others have been denied access by the Turkish government (with added input from the soviets). It is interesting to note that the Islamic world does not call this mountain "Ararat;" the Quran manitains that the ark landed on another Mount Ararat that is many miles away. Imagine the implications to muslims all over the world if Noah's ark were found at the current sight! It would mean that the Quran was in error - it is supposed to be the very book Allah has in heaven and was given directly to the Prophet without error. Is it any wonder that there are so many obstacles in getting permission to travel to and explore the mountain?
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/22/91)
ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes: >Bear in mind that there is no Mt Ararat >mentioned anywhere in the Bible. >Now Genesis 8 has the Ark landing in the Mountain*S* of Ararat (modern >translations typically render this as something like the "Ararat >Range"[*]), but if people like Williams expect such extreme claims to be >taken seriously, the least that they can do is to get the minimal details >of geography correct. >Moreover, the mountain currently called Ararat has only been called that >for the last few centuries (in English only? Does anyone know the Turkish/ >Armenian names?). Michael, you are absolutly correct about the Bible refering to a region rather than a single mountain. The only reason that Noah's Ark research is concentrating on Agri Dag (turkish for 'painful mountain') is because of the various claimed sightings by various persons over the last two centuries. What Arkologists such as myself are attempting to do is either verify or invalidate these reports. Some of them have been proven false or fradulant. Some are still open for debate. Others really seem to be correct, but so far, unprovable. Williams' story is intriguing. I am trying to trace the origins of the newspaper article to see if it really did exist. There are several persons from across the US who remember reading similar articles at about the same time. This circumstancial evidence is not conclusive, but cannot be ignored. Not even in a court of law. If we can show that the article never existed, great. If we can find that someone invented the story, great. If we can't find a source for the story, fine. The point is, opinions are of little consequence compared to facts. Jesus believed in Creation and the Flood. I believe Him, so I belive that the Ark did exist. The Bible says nothing about what happend to the Ark after the Flood. If, and this is a big IF, it were located in such a place where it could have been preserved (like the deepfreeze of a permanent, stationary ice field), then the Ark may still exist today. I find this to be an intriguing mystery to be solved. C. Allen Roy > feel taking a flight to Denver with a navigator who spent his time > looking for Mt Rocky. ;) ]
lindborg@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) (05/23/91)
In article <May.18.22.56.14.1991.14195@athos.rutgers.edu> @vm.cc.purdue.edu:XWUU@PURCCVM writes: >In the recent past, several expeditions have attempted to find Noah's ark >on this mountain. Some have outright failed to find it; others have been >denied access by the Turkish government (with added input from the soviets). >It is interesting to note that the Islamic world does not call this mountain >"Ararat;" the Quran manitains that the ark landed on another Mount Ararat that >is many miles away. Imagine the implications to muslims all over the world >if Noah's ark were found at the current sight! It would mean that the Quran >was in error - it is supposed to be the very book Allah has in heaven and was >given directly to the Prophet without error. I doubt the implications would be as severe as you make them out to be. After all many Christians claim that the Bible is the perfect, inspired word of God. They seem to have had little or no problems rationalizing away errors, contradictions and inconsistencies in it. I could imagine the Muslims would be just as talented at this art as the Christians are... just a thought... Jeff Lindborg "To say that you know when you know and say that you do not know when you do not know... this is knowledge." -Confucius
@vm.cc.purdue.edu:XWUU@PURCCVM (05/24/91)
re: the mountain(s) of Ararat. From a distance this "range" of mountains, in fact, looks like one peak. The largest peak of the approximately 65 peaks is called "Agri Dagh" in Turkish. It means "the mountain of agony" owing to its inhospitable conditions. It has been called Mt. Ararat for much longer than "the last few centuries" as the last poster has said. Rather, the Armenian people living in this area have recognized it as the place of Noah's Ark for several millenia! The current Mt Ararat (Agri Dagh) stands 17,000 feet, far above the next highest peak of about 11,000 feet. (this smaller peak, by the way, is known as "Little Ararat") It is reasonable to beleive that the largest peak would receive the most attention and would be the peak by which the rest of the range would was named. Ararat means "holy ground." The Persian name for the mountain is Koh-i-Nuh, or "Noah's Mountain." The most ancient name for the region surrounding this mo untain is "Terephaminin" or "region of the eight." The river that forms from the melting ice on the mountain and forms the border between Turkey and the Soviet Union is named the Araxes River and means "River of the Ark." These names have been around for as long as the Armenian people have been in the region - tradition says nearly 4000 years! The names refering to Noah and the Ark are not mere conventions that have sprung up in the last couple of generations. By the way, the earliest published account claiming the existence of the Ark (outside of the Old Testament) was an account by Berosus ( a babylonian priest) written about 275 B.C. About 2000 years ago, Josephus (a Jewish historian) mentions the Ark 3 times in his writings. He locates the Ark at Naxuana (= the place of Descent). Naxuana is still there - at the base of the mountain known today as "Ararat." Kirk A. Janowiak xwuu@purccvm
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/24/91)
Someone Srom Portland, OR. sent me some mail and Like a klutz, I lost it before I had a chance to save and read it. So, who ever you are, please send your message again! I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. Allen Roy
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/26/91)
In response to some mail I've received, here's an update on what has happened in the past few years in the search for Noah's Ark. THE SEARCH FOR NOAH'S ARK IN THE EIGHTIES Contrary to highly exagerated claims, Noah's Ark is still in hiding, assuming that it still exists. A few individuals (Ron Wyatt and David Fasold) insist that a pile of rocks and soil in Eastern Turkey must be it. However, Christain geologists, who would like nothing better than have the Ark found, are embarrassed by the wild assertions. The Durupinar site is not even unique, there are several similar geologic formations some 20 miles away on the flanks of Ararat itself. The search for Noah's Ark has been far easier to conduct in the Eighties than it was in the Seventies. Since 1982, hundreds of sport climbers and many expeditions have been on the mountain each summer. Although there was more access to the mountain, many expeditions were not allowed to go to some of the important places they had targeted. And then there was 1985, during which a couple expeditions were captured (and released shaken, but unharmed) by Kurdish terrorists. Astronaut Jim Irwin made international headlines with his expeditions and injurites on the mountain. The cause gained impetus during the first (and so far, only) Noah's Ark Convention at Farmington, NM, in 1984. Many researchers felt that it was only a matter of time and the Ark would be found. New sightings were reported and thousands more dollars were spent. Out of this surge came, in 1985, ARARAT REPORT, a newsletter dedicated to the search for the Ark, which is indispensable for those serious in following and participating in the search. While, expeditions on the ground were doing some searching, progress in the air became dramatic. In 1986, the first flight in nearly 20 years occurred. They photographed the nearly inaccessible Ahora Gorge. But after they landed, the group, including Jim Irwin, was arrested and the film was confiscated. A small Cessna got off the gournd in late August, 1987, but the single flight was very restricted. 1988 saw a couple of successful helicopter flights, allowing observations never before seen by the searchers. The next year, 1989, several helicopter flights allowed excellent photographic opportunities and a landing near the top of the mountain. In 1990, there were ten helicopter flights which accumulated nearly 25 hours of observation time all around the mountain. Despite this remarkable, clear and unrestricted research, the Ark still remainds ellusive. If it is on the mountain, it must be covered by the ice cap most of the time. There is simply no exposed place not scrutinized by eye and camera. Probably the most important event in the search occurred in 1989. An all Turkish team, funded by Americans, conducted an exhaustive aerial photo survey of the mountain. 910, 10x10 inch, overlapping photographs were taken to provide the basis for an extremely accurate topographical map of the mountain something that has been needed for a very long time. The resolution is so good that goats, people, huts, sheep trails, and many other small details can easily be seen. Still, even with the stereoscopic views provided by the overlapping photos, the Ark has not been located. The two most reliable sightings of the Ark, Georgie Hagopian (1902, 1904) and the Russian pilot (1917,1918), claim that the permanent ice cap was melted way back due to extreme drought conditions. Such conditions have been confirmed by other sources, including weather data taken at the time. According to current data, the mountain has not suffered such ablation (melt) in 70 years or so. The Ark may not be found until another devastating drought occures in that region. Allen Roy
allenroy@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (05/27/91)
Here is something for someone in Louisiana to do. At the same time that Harold Williams read the article in the Brockton Enterprise in Massachusetts, Lawrence Hewitt read the same article in Hammond, Louisiana. It was either in the Hammond Vindicator or the New Orleans State-Item. Hewitt remembers that it was a Thursday, while the Brockton paper with the torn out corner was Friday, November 8, 1918. This seems to indicate that the story came over the wires (probably the UPI) on Thursday the 7th (or perhaps earlier). If someone from Louisiana finds copies of either of these papers for the right time period, Hewwit said to check the 2nd or 4th page, in the lower left quadrant for a article two colums wide and 2 to 3 inches long. If you find something be sure not only to let us know on nn, but send an exerox copy to me. Even if it is a paper with a hole in it. Remember, the headline may be something like this: DEATHBEAD CONFESSION! NOAH'S ARK FOUND! and the article says something about a London scientist who tells of climbing Ararat with two other scientists and finding the Ark, sumetime in thms to indicate the 1850s) They vowed never to tell, but he was the last and must confess. Happy hunting: Allen Roy