cms@dragon.com (05/13/91)
I am taking a course in Judaism this quarter at Georgia State. We're studying this passage from the Talmud. I'd appreciate any commentary on this passage. I'd like to analyze it in true Talmudic fashion. Thanks for any help. BEGIN QUOTATION MISHNAH, Sotah 49a-49b In the footsteps of the Messiah insolence will increase and honour dwindle (1); the vine will yield its fruit [abundantly] but wine will be dear (2); the government will turn to heresy (3) and there will be none [to offer them] reproof; the meeting-place [of scholars] will be used for immorality; Galilee will be destroyed, Gablan desolated, and the dwellers on the frontier will go about [begging] from place to place without anyone to take pity on them; the wisdom of the learned (5) will degenerate, fearers of sin will be despised, and the truth will be lacking; youths will put old men to shame, the old will stand up in the presence of the young, a son will revile his father, a daughter will rise against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's enemies will be the members of his household (6); the face of the generation will be like the face of a dog (7), a son will not feel ashamed before his father, so upon whom is it for us to rely? upon our Father who is in Heaven. NOTES 1. JAST. RENDERS; THE NOBILITY SHALL BE OPPRESSED. IN SANH. 97A THERE IS A VARIANT: HONOUR WILL BE PERVERTED; OR, ACCORDING TO JAST. THE NOBILITY WILL PERVERT (JUSTICE). 2. Through the spread of drunkenness. 3. These words are omitted in the Talmud ed. of the Mishnah. The meaning is: The Roman Empire will go over to Christianity. V. Herford, op. cit., p. 207. 4. Perhaps Gabal of Ps. LXXXIII, 8, i.e., the Northern part of Mount Seir. [Others: Gaulan, E. of the Sea of Galilee and the Upper Jordan.] 5. Lit., 'scribes'. 6. V. Micah VII, 6. 7. Impervious to shame. [In some editions the whole of this passage beginning 'R. Phineas b. Jair' is introduced with 'Our Rabbis taught', and not as part of the Mishnah.] END QUOTATION The Rabbi teaching the course gave a handout on this passage xeroxing the Gemara passage pertaining to it. Unfortunately, it ends with a commentary on when Rabbi died, "humility and fear of sin ceased." Does this mean the Gemara has no commentary on the Messiah or simply no commentary on the section I've quoted? Thanks for any help. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms [I normally disallow discussions of non-Christian religions in this group. However given the sensitivity of Christian postings in s.c.j, and the Messianic involvement of this passage, I suspect it would be a bad idea to suggest that you ask this on s.c.j. --clh]
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/14/91)
In article <May.13.03.53.05.1991.13189@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.com writes: > > I am taking a course in Judaism this quarter at Georgia State. We're >studying this passage from the Talmud. I'd appreciate any commentary >on this passage. I'd like to analyze it in true Talmudic fashion. >Thanks for any help. Why are you posting this to this group if you want an analysis in true Talmudic fashion? > >[I normally disallow discussions of non-Christian religions in this >group. However given the sensitivity of Christian postings in s.c.j, >and the Messianic involvement of this passage, I suspect it would be a >bad idea to suggest that you ask this on s.c.j. --clh] I don't know why we in s.c.jewish would be upset by someone asking us to analyze a few lines of Talmud. Since this has been posted there haven't been any flames with regards to it. What we DO have a problem with is people claiming to be Jewish but teaching Christian beliefs. This is dishonest and not part of scj's forum. My thanks to Tom Albrecht (I think) for the posting on why Christians shouldn't call themselves Jews. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/18/91)
Why shouldn't Christian Jews call themselves Jews? Jesus was a Jew. Was his disciple Peter a Jew? Were his apostles Jewish? As Christians, we believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. If a Jewish Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and does not call himself Jewish, then is he not being dishonest. I know of Messianics who keep kosher and keep the law. You say that they are not Jewish, yet there are reformed Jews who do not keep any of the food ordinances, are these Jews?
wlinden@msb.com (Will Linden) (05/19/91)
In <May.18.02.12.35.1991.3863@athos.rutgers.edu> hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes: >Why shouldn't Christian Jews call themselves Jews? Jesus was a Jew. >Was his disciple Peter a Jew? Were his apostles Jewish? >I know of Messianics who keep kosher and keep the law. You say that >they are not Jewish, yet there are reformed Jews who do not keep any >of the food ordinances, are these Jews? What he said. I can not understand the rationale for claiming that an atheist who sneers at Torah and halakah but made the right choice of mother is somehow MORE Jewish than Moshe Rosen. -- Will Linden MCI: WLINDEN Internet: wlinden@msb.com "On to the castle, to kill the royal UUCP: ...uupsi!mpoint!wlinden family, and claim the throne that Compuserve: 72737,2150 isn't mine by right!"
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/23/91)
In article <May.18.02.12.35.1991.3863@athos.rutgers.edu> hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes: >Why shouldn't Christian Jews call themselves Jews? Jesus was a Jew. >Was his disciple Peter a Jew? Were his apostles Jewish? Halachically, yes (sorry, by Jewish law)... Socially and theologically, NO! >As Christians, we believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. If a >Jewish Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and does not call >himself Jewish, then is he not being dishonest. > >I know of Messianics who keep kosher and keep the law. Are we talking about the torah m'sinai or Rabbinic Judaism (to any Jews out there - sorry to use this term!) ? The Rabbis clearly deny that the Mashiach is Yeshuah ben Ploni. And Rabbinic Jews are the only people around today who are Jews (there are no Karaites left). > You say that >they are not Jewish, yet there are reformed Jews who do not keep any >of the food ordinances, are these Jews? Let's assume these people observe most of the law that is associated with today's Judaism. So what? If the Messiah has come then there should have been some changes made to those observances. The Judaism that says the Messiah has come is VERY different from the one that is still waiting. Now let's take the other side of your argument. There are certainly plenty of Jews out there who aren't observant or who have decided to reinterpret scripture. However, as far as philosophy goes they are still identifiable as Jews. In fact, they have decided that the philosophy is the most important thing in Judaism. This is in clear contrast to these so-called "Messianic Jews". The theology (theology and philosophy are inseparable in Judaism and come under the same name - hashkafah) that Xianity teaches is in very strong conflict with Judaism. The two theologies are not compatible. So, on one hand you have people who deny the everyday law, but elevate hashkafah to a level that is beyond that seen in most Jews. On the other, you have people who keep the acoutrements of Judaism, but deny its very soul. Who would you say is more Jewish? I am not going to deny that some of these "Messianic Jews" are, indeed, born of Jewish mothers. However, what they are trying to push on us is that Judaism and Xianity are somehow reconcilable. This is a true heresy and should be fought vehemently by both religions. As far as why Judaism and Xianity aren't reconcilable, out of respect for this forum I will direct interested parties to talk.religion.misc where this discussion is currently underway in full flame :-) James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu A tad bit of a background - I am currently converting to Judaism from a Fundamentalist Baptist upbringing. and yes, it's out of conviction :-) -- (I've got Joe Applegate and Messianic in my scj kill file... but I read t.r.misc, if you have something to say about what I write on those subjects, then post there and not in scj)
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (05/24/91)
In article <May.18.23.01.43.1991.14438@athos.rutgers.edu> wlinden@msb.com (Will Linden) writes: >>Why shouldn't Christian Jews call themselves Jews? Jesus was a Jew. >>Was his disciple Peter a Jew? Were his apostles Jewish? >>I know of Messianics who keep kosher and keep the law. You say that >>they are not Jewish, yet there are reformed Jews who do not keep any >>of the food ordinances, are these Jews? > What he said. > I can not understand the rationale for claiming that an atheist who sneers >at Torah and halakah but made the right choice of mother is somehow MORE >Jewish than Moshe Rosen. You are using a Christian idea to make a decision about Judaism. We accept that one is a Christian if (more or less) one believes in the teachings of Christianity and practises its rituals. To some extent we also class people as Christians if they grew up in a Christian environment and adhere to a Christian-dominated culture, but that's much more questionable. According to Judaism, on the other hand, belief and practice are not the criteria of who is Jewish. You are Jewish if you were born Jewish (or converted to Judaism, though that's rare). If you are Jewish, Judaism says that you *should* engage in certain practices; if you don't, that makes you bad, but still Jewish. This difference in definition accounts for a great deal of misunderstanding on both sides. CAR
wlinden@cmcl2.nyu.edu (Will Linden) (05/26/91)
[Will seems to be confused about something I also found a bit odd. The original comment was "I can not understand the rationale for claiming that an atheist who sneers at Torah and halakah but made the right choice of mother is somehow MORE Jewish than Moshe Rosen." Chris Redmond then explains to us that we are inappropriately using Christian concepts. You are Jewish if you are born Jewish. Of course this would leave the "Messianic Jews" Jewish, and it's the denial of this that started the whole discussion. --clh] THEN WHAT IS THE WHOLE %$@!%!@% CONTROVERSY ABOUT? It seems to be saying to "Messianic Jews"-- "You are Jewish because you were born Jews-- unless you say you are." -- Will Linden MCI: WLINDEN Internet: wlinden@panix.UUCP "On to the castle, to kill the royal UUCP: ...cmcl2!panix!wlinden family, and claim the throne that Compuserve: 72737,2150 isn't mine by right!"
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/27/91)
In article <May.26.03.19.12.1991.14716@athos.rutgers.edu> panix!wlinden@cmcl2.nyu.edu (Will Linden) writes: >[Will seems to be confused about something I also found a bit odd. >The original comment was "I can not understand the rationale for >claiming that an atheist who sneers at Torah and halakah but made >the right choice of mother is somehow MORE Jewish than Moshe Rosen." >Chris Redmond then explains to us that we are inappropriately using >Christian concepts. You are Jewish if you are born Jewish. Of >course this would leave the "Messianic Jews" Jewish, and it's the >denial of this that started the whole discussion. --clh] > > THEN WHAT IS THE WHOLE %$@!%!@% CONTROVERSY ABOUT? It seems to be saying >to "Messianic Jews"-- "You are Jewish because you were born Jews-- unless >you say you are." I and no one else are disputing that Joe Applegate and David Buxton are halachically Jewish (provided that they are born of Jewish mothers). What I am disputing is the fact that they teach that their faith is reconcilable with Judaism. They use this lie to trap Jews who are less educated (ex. Soviet Jews) into believing that they can still be Jewish even though they believe this other. Converts to other religions and those that wordship idols are banned from all of the activities that make up Judaism. They may still be Jewish in that they are breaking Jewish law, but they are considered as criminals by that same law. Xian theology and Jewish law are categorically in conflict with each other. That has been proven in *many* posts on this group and on others. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/30/91)
In article <May.26.23.25.39.1991.24779@athos.rutgers.edu> mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: > >I and no one else are disputing that Joe Applegate and David Buxton are >halachically Jewish (provided that they are born of Jewish mothers). > >What I am disputing is the fact that they teach that their faith is >reconcilable with Judaism. They use this lie to trap Jews who are less >educated (ex. Soviet Jews) into believing that they can still be Jewish ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >even though they believe this other. Converts to other religions and >those that wordship idols are banned from all of the activities that >make up Judaism. They may still be Jewish in that they are breaking >Jewish law, but they are considered as criminals by that same law. > >Xian theology and Jewish law are categorically in conflict with each >other. That has been proven in *many* posts on this group and on >others. Because of the underlined phrase, I have recieved a complaint that I have made the same mistake that has been made all along. I find that claim to be valid and wish to clarify my position on this matter. I do *not* believe that someone who is born of a Jewish mother (and therefore Jewish by all standards) who converts to any religion, be it Xianity or Islam or atheism, at any time ceases to be Jewish. This is clearly stated by all the major Jewish Sages. Someone has pointed out to me that there is a minority opinion that says one who converts out of Judaism loses their Jewishness. This must be a very small minority, and doesn't significantly affect my response. However, what I (and others) are saying is that these people have turned their backs on Judaism. Judaism has enough different sects that fall under it to make it patently clear that one who does not belong (even marginally) to one of them is not Jewish in terms of their theology. For them to teach that their beliefs are reconcilable with Jewish beliefs is a distinct lie. Furthermore, one who converts out of Judaism is forbidden to participate Jewishly in the community. To be able to participate again they must make a formal declaration of recommittment to Judaism. In Orthodoxy they must be purified by `baptism' in a mikveh (call it a bath - it's close enough for the purpose :-). This may be true of other sects of Judaism - however I don't know their practices completely. I hope this clarifies my position, which is, bli neder (w/o a vow), the Orthodox position. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu