[soc.religion.christian] Day Jesus Christ Died

fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) (05/24/91)

Paul Hudson Jr wrote inquiring how it could be that Jesus Christ died on Friday
if there were 3 days and nights between his death and resurrection. He
pointed out that at best there are only three days and two nights between
the two (Fri Night, Sat Day & Night, Sun Day). In Mat 12:40  it clearly
states:

       For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the
       whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days
       and three nights in the heart of the earth.  

Now I personally think that when the formula day and night is used like
this it indicates a clear period of twenty four hours, and I would say
any respectful study of the usage of the phrase in the Bible would
clearly support this view (feel free to do a complete study on this, I
have already, but a few juicy ones from Moses that spring to mind are:
Gen 1:5; 7:4, Ex 24:18, Lev 8:35). Notice also that it clearly says
THREE days and THREE nights, not even just three days and nights.

Illuminating all preconceptions as to the day Christ died let us
carefully look at the Biblical record. First of all we must remember the
time of year. Jesus was going to the Passover feast (Mt 26:19). Now as
I'm sure you are aware Jesus Christ was the Passover lamb that was to be
sacrificed, so information concerning his death can be found in the
record of the Passover lamb.

Ex 12:6
       And ye shall keep it [the lamb] up until the fourteenth day of
       the same month: [the first month] and the whole assembly of the
       congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.  

Now looking at the verses following we find the institution of the
Passover.

Ex 12:14,16
       And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye
       shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your
       generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance
       for ever.  [...]

       And in the first day *there shall be* an holy
       convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an
       holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be
       done in them, save *that* which every man must eat,
       that only may be done of you.  

This convocation is a sabbath (Lev 23:2,3), and this is very important to
note. The first day of the Passover feast was the day after the
sacrifice of the Passover lamb, so fell on the 15th of the first month,
and it was a sabbath. It is important to note then that this sabbath
could occur on any day of the week, but that it was a special sabbath.

Now let us look at the verse that has mistakenly been used to
demonstrate that Christ died on Friday.

Jn 19:31
       The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation,
       that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on
       the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high
       day,) besought Pilate ...

People have said, well it was the day before the sabbath, so it must
have been Friday since the Sabbath was a Saturday. Just looking at this
verse makes it clear that it was not the regular weekly Sabbath that was
referred to, but rather the "high day", the "holy convocation", the
"preparation" (i.e., the preparation for Passover). Now this clearly
establishes that Jesus Christ could have died on any day of the week, so
looking at other scriptures we can find just what day that was.

Lk 24:1-2
       Now upon the first *day* of the week, very early in
       the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, ...

       And they found the stone rolled away from the
       sepulchre.  

This day is identified as the first day of the week. We know that by
very early in the morning Jesus was not in the grave. Mark in fact tells
us that they came at the rising of the sun, so Jesus was not in the
grave when the Sun rose. There is no reason to suppose that he arose
immediately before the women arrived, but he could have arisen some time
before. Mt 27:45 identifies the time of his death as about 3pm in the
afternoon, so his burial would have been a few hour after that, say for
the sake of discussion he was buried at 5pm (although any time before
sunset and after the ninth hour, would concur with the word of God).
I do not believe that God saw his Son dead longer that needed, and Mt
12:40 indicates that the time needed was 72 hours. By simple calculation
then we can work out that Christ died about 3pm on Wednesday the 14th of
Nissan (the first month), and was raised to life by the power of God at
about the same time, 72 hours later, on Saturday the 17th Nissan. He was
then first seen resurrected by Mary Magdalene on Sunday the 18th.

Now in a number of places it mentions that Christ was raised the third
day. This has lead to some confusion so I've included a diagram below
that I hope will help.

Wednesday 14th (crucifixion, preparation for Passover)
	\
 	 First Day
	/
Thursday 15th (First day of the Passover, the high day, the holy convocation)
	\
 	 Second Day
	/
Friday 16th
	\
 	 Third Day
	/
Saturday  17th (resurrection, and weekly Sabbath)

Now every scripture fits together, and we have the rightly divided word
and we stand approved before God (2Tim 2:15).  When we realise that
Christ was crucified on Wednesday, and raised Saturday, we no longer
have to give embarrassing excuses to people on how to get three days and
three nights from Friday to Sunday, and can instead proclaim the great
meaning of the death and resurrection of the Lord, the salvation of all
mankind.

God Bless,

==Fraser Orr <fraser@edc.uucp> +44 506 416778x206
UseNet: {uunet,sun}!atexnet!fraser JANet: fraser%edc@cs.hw.ac.uk

James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/26/91)

In article <May.24.00.36.30.1991.289@athos.rutgers.edu>,
edc!fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) writes:
> Now every scripture fits together, and we have the rightly divided
word
> and we stand approved before God (2Tim 2:15).

I might, others might, but at the moment, you seem to have ignored the
rest of the Bible while concentrating on your interesting little diversion :-)

Consider:
Matthew 26:18

KJV: " And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him,
      The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover
      at thy house with my diciples."

 And, if you read on, in Matthew 26 till the crucifiction, Mark 14 till the
crucifiction, Luke 22 till the crucifiction (particularly verse 7:
TEV: " The day came during the festival of Unleavened Bread when the lambs
      for the Pasover meal were to be killed [14 Nissan, by my concordance !
      - Jim]."

KJV: " Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be
killed."

NIV: " Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the passover lamb had
      to be sacrificed." ) You'll see that is just what he did !

 John is not as clear as the others on the passover matter, but certainly,
the passover (14 Nissan) was held and celebrated by Jesus BEFORE his
crucifiction - remember, the last supper ?

My concordance states: "The Passover lamb was slain at sunset closing the
fourteenth day of the month Abib (or, as it was afterwards called, Nisan), ..."

You state that Matthew 26:19 says that Jesus was "going to" the
passover feast - On the contrary, he was already there (having made the
triuphant entry into Jerusalem on the back of a colt) and was only making the
final preparations ! (see verse 18 !) Your assertion is inconsistent with the
Bible ! (I thought you'd like to know :-)

> When we realise that Christ was crucified on Wednesday, and raised Saturday,
> we no longer have to give embarrassing excuses to people on how to get three
> days and three nights from Friday to Sunday, and can instead proclaim
the great
> meaning of the death and resurrection of the Lord, the salvation of
all
> mankind.

I can't subscribe to your calculations, they are inaccurate !
This means that I don't 'realise' that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday,
not at all ! You will note in the verses that surround the references above,
mention is made of preparation for the Passover (Festival of Unleavened Bread).
So the preparation you refer to as 'clear' is not really that clear at all !

I don't have to give embarrasing excuses, ever !

The salvation of all is by faith, not sabbaths ! see my other postings !

Jim.

John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu (John Graves) (05/26/91)

In article <May.24.00.36.30.1991.289@athos.rutgers.edu> 
edc!fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) writes:
> Christ was crucified on Wednesday, and raised Saturday,

A very interesting and IMHO probably correct understanding of the timing, 
assuming that a resurrection occurred and 3 days and 3 nights were 
necessary.  This is not to question either but rather to ask which years 
in the 30 - 40 CE period did Passover fall on a Wednesday evening?  This 
would be very useful for figuring out Jesus' human age at death.

John Allan Graves                              Unitarian Universalism
Duke University                                 An inclusive religion!
and all its components                                    ()  
including the Divinity School,                           \__/
 disavow anything I say.                                  II

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/27/91)

In article <May.24.00.36.30.1991.289@athos.rutgers.edu> edc!fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) writes:
>
>Wednesday 14th (crucifixion, preparation for Passover)
>	\
> 	 First Day
>	/
>Thursday 15th (First day of the Passover, the high day, the holy convocation)
>	\
> 	 Second Day
>	/
>Friday 16th
>	\
> 	 Third Day
>	/
>Saturday  17th (resurrection, and weekly Sabbath)

This would put Jesus in the tomb for four days.  Paul says in I
Corinthians 15 that Jesus rose the 3rd day.  If the above were the
case, ehn Jesus would have risen on the fourth day.

Suppose His crucifiction was Wedsnsday and the next day was to be the
Preparation.  The preparation would have started on Thursday night.
If this were the case:

Wednesday
	\
	First day
        /
Thursday
	\
	Second day
	/
Friday
	\
	Third day
	/
Saturday
       \
       Fourth day.

And if Jesus was ressurected on the first day of the week, that would
put his ressurection on the fifth day.  This explanation is not
sufficient.

Also, we have the problem of Jesus fulfilling the Passover on the
correct day of the week.  Would Jesus have had it on the wrong day?
the rabbis made a concesion to have two passovers because of the all
of the travelers.
 I think the correct Passover comes one day before the other Passover.
We also have to look into this.  Notice that the women rested
according to the commandment ("rested the sabbath day.)  I think this
refers to a command of God, and not just a men-made command.

 Link Hudson

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/27/91)

In article <May.26.02.26.54.1991.14077@athos.rutgers.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu (John Graves) writes:
.  This is not to question either but rather to ask which years 
>in the 30 - 40 CE period did Passover fall on a Wednesday evening?  This 
>would be very useful for figuring out Jesus' human age at death.

A very good point.  But I think there is a problem.  I am not sure,
but I think the Passover moves one day of the week every year.  But if
we come to a day of the week, maybe we can narrow down what year
Christ could have been crucified.  I am not 100% sure that Passover
moves like that, but I think last year it was Thursday and Friday, and
this year it was Friday and Saturday.

drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) (05/28/91)

James Quilty writes:

> John is not as clear as the others on the passover matter, but certainly,
>the passover (14 Nissan) was held and celebrated by Jesus BEFORE his
>crucifiction - remember, the last supper ?
>
>My concordance states: "The Passover lamb was slain at sunset closing the
>fourteenth day of the month Abib (or, as it was afterwards called, Nisan), ..."

Might I respectfully point out that your argument that Jesus ate the regular
Passover in the year of his death is incorrect. He ate a meal which the 
synoptic writers term 'the Passover', but it was not the normal Passover
which everyone else ate.

If it were the regular Passover then we encounter two major problems. The 
first of these is that it would place the crucifixion on the following day,
the 15th. But the 15th was an annual Holy Day, a "High Sabbath", on which 
crucifixions were not permitted. The idea of crucifying someone on a Holy
Day, and particularly one which was to celebrate delivery from captivity in
Egypt would have been absolutely outrageous. The very notion is absurd.
(Remember they hurried to get the bodies down before the Sabbath came.)

The second problem is that John tells us that the various priests and others
involved in Jesus' arrest would not enter Pilate's hall of judgment lest they
be defiled before eating the Passover. And this was sometime early in the 
morning of the day Jesus died (John 18:28). Yet the Passover was to be eaten
in the evening of the 14th as the 15th (the annual Holy Day) began.

The only way to reconcile all these issues is to acknowledge that Jesus ate
a Passover meal, still on the 14th, but at the beginning of the 14th, not at
the end. It was a Passover meal because he, Jesus, was present as the Passover
Lamb. But it was a new institution even as the application of the bread and
wine to his sacrifice were new symbols.

There is also a great significance to the timing of the killing of Passover
Lamb. At the time of the Exodus, the Passover Lamb was originally killed 
towards the end of the 14th as you state. By the time of Jesus, the practise
had altered somewhat to permit Passover Lambs to be killed between 3pm and 
sunset (in order to allow for adequate preparation for the Passover meal).
When Jesus died on the 14th, shortly after 3pm, he was clearly fulfilling the
prophetic symbolism of the slaying of the literal Passover Lambs. (Some have
speculated that Jesus died precisely at the moment the High Priest killed the
first of the Passover Lambs in the Temple.)

A couple of other data points that should be noted. For centuries after Jesus'
death, a Wednesday crucifixion was taught by Christians of the Arian persuas-
ion. Also, it is possible to demonstrate that according to the fixed rules of
the Hebrew calendar, Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday in both 30 and 31 AD. Not
until 33 AD do we find Nisan 14, falling on a Friday.

One last point, the issue is often raised of "three days and three nights"
being equivalent to only parts of three days and three nights based on a
Greek idiom. The trouble is that Jesus was using the example of Jonah who
was in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights. There is no such idiom
in Hebrew - Jonah was in 'the grave' for a literal 72 hour period. And Jesus
said he would be in the grave (not just dead), for 3 days and 3 nights just
like Jonah. Friday sunset to Sunday morning yields 2 nights and 1 day.

Drew Corrigan  (drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au)

James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/30/91)

In article <May.27.16.49.01.1991.9247@athos.rutgers.edu>,
drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) writes:
> He ate a meal which the synoptic writers term 'the Passover', but it
was
> not the normal Passover which everyone else ate.
 
This is not what the Bible says, the Bible says that the time came when
the
Passover lamb was to be killed - and the surrounding verses are quite 
explicit that the meal that Jesus ate WAS the passover - the NORMAL one
!
ref: (as already quoted:)

Luke 22:7-8 (and onwards !)
TEV: " The day came during the festival of Unleavened Bread when the lambs for
      the Pasover meal were to be killed. Jesus sent off Peter and John
with these
      instructions" "Go and get the Passover meal ready for us to eat."
"

NOTE: the verse says "lambs" plural, NOT lamb, and that these "lambs"
were to be
      killed for the "Passover meal" - This verse does not support your
assertion
      that Jesus ate a special meal. Nor does it support your assertion
that:
      "Jesus died precicely at the moment the High Priest killed the
first of the
      Passover Lambs in the Temple"  - that happened before the meal,
and we
      see Jesus telling Peter & John to go prepare that (which he
subsequently
      ate - verses 14 on)
ALSO:

Matthew 26:17-19
TEV " On the first day of the festival of Unleavened Bread the disciples
came to
     Jesus and asked him, "Where do you want us to get the Passover meal
ready
 18  for you ?" "Go to a certain man in the city, " he said to them,
"and tell
     him: 'The teacher says, My hour has come; my disciples and I will
celebrate
 19  the Passover at your house.' " The disciples did as Jesus had told
them and
 20  prepared the Passover meal. When it was evening, Jesus and the
twelve
     disciples sat down to eat."

Mark 14:12;16
TEV: " On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the day the lambs
      for the Passover meal were killed, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do
      you want us to go and get the Passover meal ready for you ?"

     [Jesus tells them to go to the city, etc, then: ]

  16 " The disciples left, went to the city, and found everything just as Jesus
      had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal."

 These scriptures do not say that Jesus ate a special meal, rather "the
Passover
meal" was prepared at the right time (when the "Passover lambs" - for
everyone -
were being killed) and Jesus ate it ! Please note that the verses read:
"the Passover meal" not "a Passover meal" ! IF Jesus ate a special meal,
would it
not have been mentioned ???!!!
 Rather, the Bible says explicitly that "the Passover meal" was the one
that Jesus
celebrated - rather inconsistent with your unbacked assertion ?!!

> (Remember they hurried to get the bodies down before the Sabbath came.)

This is quite consistent with Jesus dying on a THURSDAY !
NOTE: Died 3pm Thursday
      After sunset, it is Friday, the day of preparation for the sabbath

consistent with:

Mark 15:42-43
TEV: " It was towards evening when Joseph af Arimathea arrived. He was a
respected
      member of the Council, who was waiting for the coming of the
Kingdom of God.
      It was Preparation day (that is, the day before the Sabath), so
Joseph went
      boldly into the presence of Pilate and asked him for the body of
Jesus."

Matthew 27:57
TEV: " When it was evening, a rich man from Arimathea arrived; his name was
      Joseph, and he also was a disciple of Jesus."

Also ref. the John verse you quote:
John 19:31 (verse 38 about Joseph of Arimathea)
TEV: " Then the Jewish authorities asked Pilate to allow them to break the legs
      of the men who had been crucified, and to take the bodies down from the
      crosses. They requested this because it was Friday, and they did not want
      the bodies to stay on the crosses on the Sabbath, since the coming
Sabbath
      was especially holy."

NOTE: The particular phrasing of "Friday" here is unique to the TEV - other
      Bibles state "the day of preparation". This is consistent with a Thursday
      death of Jesus, but not of a death on a Wednesday (or any other day)
      Because Jesus' body was not removed from the cross and prepared until
      the evening - which by Jewish reconing is the NEXT DAY !!!!!

 We can see that when the body was to be removed from the cross, it was
EVENING !
This, by Jewish reconing, was the next day, **the day before the
sabbath** !
If, as you assert, Jesus was crucified the day before the passover
sabbath, then
he was actually buried ON the Passover sabbath (by the verses above) !
 But we KNOW (from the verses above) that Jesus celebrated "the Passover
meal",
so a death before the Passover is contradictory to the known facts !!!

> The second problem is that John tells us that the various priests and others
> involved in Jesus' arrest would not enter Pilate's hall of judgment lest they
> be defiled before eating the Passover. And this was sometime early in the 
> morning of the day Jesus died (John 18:28). Yet the Passover was to be eaten
> in the evening of the 14th as the 15th (the annual Holy Day) began.

Point 1: The evening of the 14th WAS the 15th, by Jewish reconing !
         The Passover lamb WAS eaten on the 15th (after sunset on the 14th)
         by Jewish tradition - your assertion that the practice had changed
         slightly is ridiculous - you describe exactly what happened
(and what I
         said, incidentally) as if it is something new ! What you say
makes no
         difference to the known facts.
Point 2:  As you should know, people could become ritually unclean
DURING the
         Passover meal and be ineligible to eat - the most common way of
this
         happening was the touching of a dead body DURING the Passover
day !
         (actually, my concordance says that there was a special
Passover meal
         held later on (I hasten to add !) in the year for those who had
become
         ritually unclean during the Passover meal and ineligible to eat
!)
          As you also should know, ritual uncleanliness lasted "until
the evening"
         so, if the Priests were to become "unclean" on the day BEFORE
the
         Passover as you assert, by the time of the Passover they would
be "clean"
         again and able to participate !!! A person could only be
invalidated
         from Passover celebration on the actual day of the Passover !
The John
         verse actually say that they wanted to keep "themselves
ritually clean
         in order to be able to eat the Passove meal." - all this says
is that
         the Priests had not eaten the Passover meal, but intended to
THAT DAY !
Point 3:  The most probable reason that the Priests had not eaten their
Passover
         meal was that they were busy being Priests !!!! (They used to
do that,
         you know ! :-) the sabbath was the busiest day for them !!!)

 Now, as far as 3 days and 3 nights are concerned, we can get them. I
think that
a literal period of 72 hours is unwarranted from the scripture (i.e. I
haven't
seen scripture that says "72 hours" ! And your extra-scriptural
asertions don't
cut it for me ! :-)
But we get: (let me draw a little diagram)
[NOTE: Jewish reckoning in force here !]

Thursday : 3pm - sunset   DAY
Friday   : sunset - dawn  NIGHT  { The day of preparation when Jesus was buried
Friday   : dawn - sunset  DAY    { *as above*.
Saturday : sunset - dawn  NIGHT  { The particularly holy sabbath.
Saturday : dawn - sunset  DAY    { *as above.
Sunday   : sunset - dawn  NIGHT  { Seen by the women that morning !

Now we get 3 days and 3 nights - count them !
AND, even better, it is consistent with the known facts !

With all due respect for your argument, it isn't consistent with the verses
above !

Jim.

fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) (05/30/91)

In article <May.26.23.13.09.1991.24592@athos.rutgers.edu>, hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
|> This would put Jesus in the tomb for four days.  Paul says in I
|> Corinthians 15 that Jesus rose the 3rd day.  If the above were the
|> case, ehn Jesus would have risen on the fourth day.

I had hoped my chart made this point abundantly clear, obviously not so
let me reiterate. The scripture in question says:

1Cor15:4
	... and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

If he was buried on Wednesday, then Thursday is the first day, Friday
the second day, and Saturday the third day. An honest examination of the
evidence would lead you to the conclusion that he did not rise on Sunday
morning, but some time before, and Saturday evening would seem a good
time.

|> Also, we have the problem of Jesus fulfilling the Passover on the
|> correct day of the week.  Would Jesus have had it on the wrong day?
|> the rabbis made a concesion to have two passovers because of the all
|> of the travelers.
|>  I think the correct Passover comes one day before the other Passover.
|> We also have to look into this.  Notice that the women rested
|> according to the commandment ("rested the sabbath day.)  I think this
|> refers to a command of God, and not just a men-made command.

If I understand you right when you say "fulfilling the passover" you
mean eating the passover meal. I do not see why Jesus had to eat that
passover to fulfill the law. In fact if Jesus was the lamb that year
then he had to be sacrificed on the day of preperation, the day before
the passover was eaten. 

You are very observant to note that the women rested that Sabbath. This
can be a little confusing until you realise that the weekly Sabbath was
not negated during the passover time, and the women rested on the weekly
Sabbath, Saturday, the day on which God raised the Lord from the dead.

God Bless,

==Fraser Orr <fraser@edc.uucp> +44 506 416778x206
UseNet: {uunet,sun}!atexnet!fraser JANet: fraser%edc@cs.hw.ac.uk

drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) (06/03/91)

James Quilty raised the following points in relation to my posting:

>This is not what the Bible says, the Bible says that the time came when
>the Passover lamb was to be killed - and the surrounding verses are quite 
>explicit that the meal that Jesus ate WAS the passover - the NORMAL one!

This matter is not as straightforward as we would both like. The problem
is that John clearly places the day of the crucifixion as being on the 14th
of Nisan; the day of "the preparation for the Passover" (John 19:14). He
also tells us that the same day was the "preparation" for a High Sabbath
(John 19:31,42). We are also told that the Jews had not yet eaten the
Passover (John 18:28).

Commentators over the years have endevoured to reconcile John's account with
that of the Synoptists. The Synoptists are in agreement that the day Jesus
died was the preparation of the Sabbath (Matt 27:62; Luke 23:54; Mark 15:42-
43). Jesus was laid in the tomb as the Sabbath was drawing on (Luke 23:54).

The real question is which Sabbath is meant. If Friday is meant, then Jesus
did not keep his prophesy of fulfilling the sign of Jonah which was to be
in the "heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights" (Matt 12:40). The
traditional Friday night - Sunday morning scenario yields only 2 nights
and 1 day.

A Thursday crucifixion as you propose yields only 3 nights and 2 days. You
counted Thursday afternoon as 'one day', but Jesus wasn't laid in the
tomb until very late in the afternoon as the Sabbath was drawing on
(Luke 23:54), or as Matthew says, towards the evening (Matt 27:57). 3pm to 
sunset cannot in seriously be counted as 'one day' during which Jesus was 
in the heart of the earth, simply because he wasn't in the heart of the earth.

The other problem of having Jesus actually crucified on the first Holy
Day of the Days of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) is a very serious one which 
it seems comparatively few have given much thought towards. It reflects a 
strongly dismissive attitude towards the importance of these annual Holy Days
in the lives of the people at the time. It also dismisses further internal
evidence of the Gospel writers. 

The Pharisees sought to have Jesus killed but *not* on the Feast day (Nisan 
15), lest there be an uproar among the people (Matt 26:5, Mark 14:2). When
Simon was compelled to carry Jesus' cross it is noted that he was coming in
from the fields (Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26), strongly suggesting that he had
been working there. Work was not permitted on the annual Holy Days, or High
Sabbaths as they were called.

>IF Jesus ate a special meal, would it not have been mentioned ???!!!

John does seem to offer support for this by terming it 'the supper' (John
13:2), and saying that this was before the Feast of the Passover (v1).
Paul offers support by terming it the "Lord's Supper" (1 Cor 11:20).

>NOTE: The particular phrasing of "Friday" here is unique to the TEV - other
>      Bibles state "the day of preparation". This is consistent with a 
>      Thursday death of Jesus, but not of a death on a Wednesday (or any
>      other day) Because Jesus' body was not removed from the cross and 
>      prepared until the evening - which by Jewish reconing is the NEXT 
>      DAY !!!!!
> We can see that when the body was to be removed from the cross, it was
>EVENING !

[Just a point: I find myself in disagreement with the kind of paraphrasing
offered by the TEV translators. Putting in 'Friday' for 'day of preparation'
indicates a heavy doctrinal bias which doesn't aid clear understanding.]

I feel you have mis-read the scriptures you quoted on this point. I expect
that nearly all commentators would agree that Jesus was buried in haste on
the 'day of preparation' because the (or a) Sabbath was about to begin, and
the burial was completed as the (or a) Sabbath was beginning. If Jesus died
on Thursday, why the hurry to bury him before sunset? They could have left
him overnight on the cross and taken him down Friday morning.

Luke explicitly states 'and the Sabbath was drawing on' (Luke 23:54) as
the men finished burying Jesus.

>Point 2:  As you should know, people could become ritually unclean
>        DURING the Passover meal and be ineligible to eat - the most
>        common way of this happening was the touching of a dead body 
>        DURING the Passover day ! ... As you also should know, 
>        ritual uncleanliness lasted "until the evening" so, if the Priests 
>        were to become "unclean" on the day BEFORE the Passover as you 
>        assert, by the time of the Passover they would be "clean"
>        again and able to participate !!! A person could only be invalidated
>        from Passover celebration on the actual day of the Passover ! The 
>        John verse actually say that they wanted to keep "themselves
>        ritually clean in order to be able to eat the Passove meal." - all
>        this says is that the Priests had not eaten the Passover meal, but
>        intended to THAT DAY !

I think we are agreed that the Jewish authorities wanted to prevent 
themselves from becoming defiled in order that they might eat the Passover.
However, the position that 'defilement ended at sunset' doesn't necessarily
follow. A stricter, more extensive period might have been in practise. I will
look this up if I remember.

>Point 3:  The most probable reason that the Priests had not eaten their
>          Passover meal was that they were busy being Priests !!!! (They
>          used to do that, you know ! :-) the sabbath was the busiest day
>for them !!!)

The Passover meal *had* to be eaten in the evening. Not later on during the
day when people felt like it. All the lambs were killed prior to sunset.
So to say Jesus was killed on Nisan 15, and the priests were too busy to
eat at the beginning is not possible. Being busy is not an issue because
everyone would have retired to their homes. The only reason the authorities
hadn't eaten is because Passover evening had not yet arrived. Again, I point
out that John terms the day of the crucifixion, 'the preparation for the
Passover' (John 19:14).

A Friday crucifixion doesn't allow Jesus to fulfill his sign. A Thursday
crucifixion doesn't either. However, a Wednesday crucifixion on Nisan 14,
followed by Thursday, a Holy Day, followed by Friday a working day (during
which the women bought and prepared spices), followed by the weekly Sabbath,
with Jesus' resurrection at the conclusion of it, and his appearance to the
women next morning, is consistent with the available information, and
permits the fulfilling of the sign of Jonah.

Drew - who has had enough of this topic!

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (06/03/91)

In article <May.30.00.32.23.1991.19282@athos.rutgers.edu> edc!fraser@uunet.uu.net (Fraser Orr) writes:
>|> This would put Jesus in the tomb for four days.  Paul says in I
>|> Corinthians 15 that Jesus rose the 3rd day.  If the above were the
>|> case, ehn Jesus would have risen on the fourth day.
>
>let me reiterate. The scripture in question says:
>	... and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
>
>If he was buried on Wednesday, then Thursday is the first day, Friday
>the second day, and Saturday the third day. An honest examination of the
>evidence would lead you to the conclusion that he did not rise on Sunday
>morning, but some time before, and Saturday evening would seem a good
>time.

No.  The crucifiction was on the first day, because that was the day in which He
was buried.  The day begins at sunset in the Bible.  We can't
look at this from a 20th century perspective using our own way of measuring
time.  Since Jesus died and was buried on the same day (remember they had to
hurry him into the tomb before sunset) that is definitely, expecially by
1st century Jewish reckoning, the 1st day.  And, it does not matter if He
rose before or after sunrise!  We know He arose sometime around sunrise (and 
there is meaning in that.)  The first day of teh week had already begun at 
sunset.  So it does not matter if he rose before sunrise.  

Link Hudson.