jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (05/22/91)
Last saturday, I visited a friend of my fathers who was in the hospital.
He was dying from stomach cancer and had about a year left to live.
My father does not believe in God and my Mother is searching. But this
friend of my father's does believe and takes his family to church.
My mother asked me to say a prayer for him with them together.
I was reluctant. This seemed like another one of my mom's schemes to
raise me on a platform so that she could brag about me. The last time I
met this guy was 20 years ago. But if this man is a fellow believer in Christ
then no matter what the ulterior motive, he would still appreciate someone
praying for him so I agreed.
When we got there, I didn't know what to say.
He had a life full of God's blessings. Loving wife, nice home, happy
marriage, successful career and two bright and talented daughters.
So as we prayed, I mentioned those things and thanked God that he has
given this man all that he has.
What else could I have mentioned to help this man feel any better ?
I didn't want to pray for a miraculous recovery because his kind of cancer
is terminal.
And if God will rescue St. Paul but let St. Stephan be stoned, I wasn't
about to second guess his plans for this man.
I could have prayed that his death bring greater glory to the Kingdom,
but that seemed kind of innapropriate.
I was at a loss. So I just thanked God for his life, unfortunately in
the past tense, and left.
Any advice for the next time I'm in this situation ?
- jon
( </ / A CRIMSON ROM ^>*<^ PRODUCTION
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/ / ^>*<^ the expected ^>*<^ |___ (_) | / \taylor@homxa.att.com (Roberta L Taylor) (05/24/91)
In article <May.22.00.51.57.1991.1654@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >Last saturday, I visited a friend of my fathers who was in the hospital. >He was dying from stomach cancer and had about a year left to live... >My mother asked me to say a prayer for him with them together. >When we got there, I didn't know what to say... >So as we prayed, I mentioned those things and thanked God that he has >given this man all that he has. >I was at a loss. So I just thanked God for his life, unfortunately in >the past tense, and left. >Any advice for the next time I'm in this situation ? It's not a particularly easy situation, and so many factors influence the appropriateness of some things you might pray. For instance, if a person hasn't accepted the fact that he's dying, you need to be careful how you phrase certain things. I think a good general guideline is to concentrate on God: His nature, His faithfulness, His love, and His promises. How about praying: For God to be especially close to him, and his family, during this difficult time. For them all to be at peace, secure in the knowledge that God is in complete control, and has promised that He will never leave us or forsake us. (Heb 13:5) For an increased awareness of the fact that death isn't the end, but a home-coming, and that he will have peace (and even anticipation!) about going home. (Phil 1:23) Also for his family and friends to have this awareness, and be comforted by the knowledge that the separation is only temporary. (1 Cor 12:22) For a minimum of suffering, and the grace to endure what must be. For wisdom for his doctors, to do as much as they can to alleviate his suffering, and retard the course of the disease. And, if God wills it, that he be healed - for surely God *can* heal, although He doesn't always. That he can be a testimony to those around him, as they see his faith in God, even as he faces the time when God will take him home. And, when you're really at a loss for words, there's nothing wrong with admitting that! "Lord, I don't really know how to pray in this situation. My brother here is going through a really rough time, and I just want to lift him up to You, and ask you to handle this situation. I wish I had the words to say that would make him feel better about this, but I don't. Besides, that's your responsibility, not mine. All I can do is ask you to take care of him..." One of the neat things about prayer is, it's two-way communication. As we open our hearts to the Lord, He gives us direction in how to pray. ---- Roberta Taylor <>< | You let me sing a song for you every now and then, AT&T Bell Laboratories | But I'm asking you, when are you gonna listen? Whippany, NJ | You say I never sing about anyone but Jesus taylor@homxa.att.com | Well, that's because Jesus is my song. ---Anne Herring
trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) (05/26/91)
In article <May.22.00.51.57.1991.1654@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >I didn't want to pray for a miraculous recovery because his kind of cancer >is terminal. > (...) > -jon The above quoted statement is a very proud statement. Who says that 'this kind of cancer is terminal'? A proud human mind (of a doctor maybe), a mind that limits God, and last but not least: a mind that calls God a liar. The sentence above bears witness of a human mind in unbelief, a mind that accuses God of not having done a good enough job, that Jesus didn't accomplish all that much after all. Past experience is not a very good measure of truth. People were shocked when Jesus raised people from the dead. It wasn't 'terminal' after all, to everybody's surprise. This is the same proud mind speaking that has no problem accepting that God created the universe, but has a VERY hard time indeed accepting that He was capable of doing it in 144 hours (6 days). (Our proud scientific mind calls God a liar, 'we know better'). The same proud mind that has no problems accepting that God raised Jesus from the dead, but has a HECK of a problem accepting the Virgin Birth. Worshipping a God which we limits to fit comfortably in our mind and in between our intellectual knowledge (e.g. 'God did it trough Evolution! Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, it fits. YO!') is no better than carving him out in wood and bow down before'im. HUMBLE YORSELVES, GOOFS!! Love Trond
JMK5@ns.cc.lehigh.edu (J. Michael Kafes) (05/27/91)
Hi Jon, I read your memo, and thought I'd offer you a couple of Baha'i prayers specifically intended to be read for the departed. (There actually are many specific Baha'i prayers for many different occasions). Baha'is do believe in the Divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ, so you might want to consider using these the next time you're in a similar situation. The two prayers are from a compilation of Baha'i writings about life after death, entitled UNTO HIM SHALL WE RETURN. You're very welcome to borrow it if you want to. See you around. Michael Kafes O Thou Forgiving Lord! Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance, and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set free. Whomsoever Thou willest Thou makest a confidant, and whosoever is not the object of Thy choice is accounted a transgressor. Shouldst Thou deal with us with Thy justice, we are all naught but sinners and deserving to be shut out from Thee, but shouldst Thou uphold mercy, every sinner would be made pure and every stranger a friend. Bestow, then, Thy forgiveness and pardon, and grant Thy mercy unto all. Thou art the Forgiver, the Lightgiver and the Omnipotent. Here's one more: O my God! O Thou Forgiver of sins, Bestower of gifts, Dispeller of afflictions! Verily, I beseech Thee to forgive the sins of such as have abandoned the physical garment and have ascended to the spiritual world. O my Lord! Purify them from trespasses, dispel their sorrows, and change their darkness into light. Cause them to enter the garden of happiness, cleanse them with the most pure water, and grant them to behold Thy splendors on the loftiest mount. Here's one more: O my God! O my God! Verily, thy servant, humble before the majesty of Thy divine supremacy, lowly at the door of Thy oneness, hath believed in Thee and in Thy verses, hath testified to Thy word, hath been enkindled with the fire of Thy love, hath been immersed in the depths of the ocean of Thy knowledge, hath been attracted by Thy breezes, hath relied upon Thee, hath turned his face to Thee, hath offered his supplications to Thee, and hath been assured of Thy pardon and forgiveness. He hath abandoned this mortal life and hath flown to the kingdom of immortality, yearning for the favor of meeting Thee. O Lord, glorify his station, shelter him under the pavilion of Thy supreme mercy, cause him to enter Thy glorious paradise, and perpetuate his existence in Thine exalted rose garden, that he may plunge into the sea of light in the world of mysteries. Verily, Thou art the Generous, the Powerful, the Forgiver and the Bestower. Feel free to tailor the above prayers to your situation, but keep in mind the less you alter them the more powerful effect they will have.
mib@churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (05/28/91)
In article <May.26.01.59.05.1991.13527@athos.rutgers.edu> trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) writes:
The last thing I want to do is debate talk.origins topics on this
group, but the moderator has said that the theological implications
are relevant here.
This is the same proud mind speaking that has no problem accepting
that God created the universe, but has a VERY hard time indeed
accepting that He was capable of doing it in 144 hours (6 days).
(Our proud scientific mind calls God a liar, 'we know better').
Not at all. I don't believe that God created the world in six days,
but I don't believe that he's claimed he did either. I don't believe
God can't, I just don't think he did. Why is it that you constrain
God so? I'm quite aware that God could have created the world any way
he wanted, but why don't you think so?
Naturally, this question also borders on biblical literalism. Why
don't you think God can save people through an imperfect book? Why
don't you think God can successfully interact with humanity through
fallible humans making fallible statements?
Worshipping a God which we limits to fit comfortably in our mind and
in between our intellectual knowledge (e.g. 'God did it trough
Evolution! Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, it fits. YO!') is
no better than carving him out in wood and bow down before'im.
It seems to me that you have defined perfection in a way not
sanctioned by the Bible, and then you constrain God to your model. I
start my observation of the universe without presumptions of what God
deems best and then learn about his majesty.
-mibtrondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) (05/30/91)
> > This is the same proud mind speaking that has no problem accepting > that God created the universe, but has a VERY hard time indeed > accepting that He was capable of doing it in 144 hours (6 days). > (Our proud scientific mind calls God a liar, 'we know better'). > >Not at all. I don't believe that God created the world in six days, >but I don't believe that he's claimed he did either. I don't believe >God so? I'm quite aware that God could have created the world any way >he wanted, but why don't you think so? > >Naturally, this question also borders on biblical literalism. Why >don't you think God can save people through an imperfect book? Why >don't you think God can successfully interact with humanity through >fallible humans making fallible statements? > > Worshipping a God which we limits to fit comfortably in our mind and > in between our intellectual knowledge (e.g. 'God did it trough > Evolution! Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, it fits. YO!') is > no better than carving him out in wood and bow down before'im. > >It seems to me that you have defined perfection in a way not >sanctioned by the Bible, and then you constrain God to your model. I >start my observation of the universe without presumptions of what God >deems best and then learn about his majesty. > > -mib Of course God could have created the universe any way he wanted to... he could have created the whole thing in a split second, he could have done it just last week, implanted all our memories, created all the history books (with yellowish pages and all). And just to add to the confusion he could have given us the Bible too. And we would go around in our ignorance believing that that the universe is 4bill yrs old. There is not much we can be sure of. Science has tried to establish facts for ages. They find only approximations. Psychology (that demonic religion) has tried to establish facts, which has proved to be rather hard. Nobody is sure about anything. I'M not sure about anything. In the 70s I wore bellbottoms, and I looked really hip. Looking back at the pictures now, I cringe. I thought I liked loud punk music in the beginning of the 80s.... I was wrong: In the mid 80s I discovered that I liked mellow. Ad infinitum. You get my drift. Miraculously I became a Christian in 89. Finally I found ABSOLUTES. In the Bible I found absolute Truth. It is nowhere else to be found. As far as I am concerned: every word of the Bible is the Truth and nothing BUT the Truth. The author is Holy Spirit. And He can't lie. If the basis for your Christianity is anything else that this, then I suggest that you are on shaky ground indeed. I agree that what we see around us tells a lot about God. Take the beauty of flowers. They didn't HAVE to smell so good. But what if an Angel of Light showed up and started telling you what God is like? What if it didn't agree with the Bible? What criteria do you use to discriminate between what's true in the Bible and what's wrong? Personal desires? intellectual 'knowledge'? Experience? I know that there are some seemingly contradicting passages in the Bible. Have you tried to sit down and let Holy Spirit explain to you what's REALLY going on behind the words? It takes some humbling, but it's worth it.... belive me! Am I being unfair to God by using the Bible as my absolute frame of reference? If the answer is YES then suddenly Christianity makes no sense at all to me, and I'll start looking into Hinduism. In love Trond =8)
mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (06/03/91)
In article <May.30.00.33.50.1991.19343@athos.rutgers.edu> trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) writes:
Am I being unfair to God by using the Bible as my absolute frame of
reference? If the answer is YES then suddenly Christianity makes
no sense at all to me, and I'll start looking into Hinduism.
I'll mail you a copy of the Upanishads because you are going to need
them. You certainly are being unfair to God by using the Bible as an
absolute frame. The Bible, simply put, is not God. To use the Bible
as your absolute frame of reference, rather than God, is idolatry.
-mibrei3@midway.uchicago.edu (ted reichardt) (06/03/91)
In article <May.30.00.33.50.1991.19343@athos.rutgers.edu>
trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) talks about certainty and
inerrancy. I'd like to make some comments.
Trond asks how one could separate the correct from the
incorrect in the Bible if the Bible is not taken to be correct in
everything; does one use personal feelings, human knowledge,
experience? Now first I think that this is not a well posed question,
and represents those who don't accept inerrancy as seeing good parts &
bad parts, as if one could create a *real* red-letter version of the
Bible-- these sentences are perfect, and these simply human &
incorrect. That *might* represent the views of some people, but not
all by any means, and certainly not mine.
But the more general question, of discerning the voice of God
in Scripture, doesn't change much in my eyes whether one is an
inerrantist or not. How do *you* find out what God is saying in any
passage? Your desires? Human knowledge? Experience? You did after all
leave out the Holy Spirit in your list, I suppose I'm justified in
leaving it out here...
It doesn't do much for certainty to have imperfect knowledge
of a perfect book, particularly when lots of other people who also
hold it to be perfect have other ideas about what it means. To get
through those disagreements you can either go to those treacherous
human arguments of translation, text analysis, and interpretation
(sprinkled liberally with your own experiences and desires), or set
your brother at nought by simply saying "this is what the Spirit says
to me, and if you differ, obviously the Spirit is not with you." The
latter you've already done, at least implicitly, with Michael.
To what extent are you willing to discuss what the Bible says,
with the possibility that you might change your mind? To that extent,
you *don't* have "absolute" certainty, the sort you seem to be seeking
(or believe you've found). To the extent you *aren't* willing to
discuss the Bible in those terms, because you already have certain
knowledge of what it means (I'm tempted to say you "know even as you
are known" :-)), then I guess this note is a waste.
Inerrancy looks to me like the outgrowth of a desire for a
clear, concrete, get my hands on it type of certainty, like that
sought by the disciples on the sea of Galilee; it was not the
perfection of that fishing boat that the disciples needed to put their
trust in, but the Christ that was in it. But the disciples seemingly
asked "how can we trust our lives to this boat-- it's such a tiny and
blatantly *human* vessel?" Trying to deny any possibility of
imperfections in the boat so we can have "certainty" that it won't
sink doesn't seem like the answer to me.
It appears to me closer to the mark to trust in the God of the
Bible, who has chosen to speak to us through his all-too-human
apostles and prophets, and their all-to-human words, examples, and
lives, in all of which God bears witness to His son.
God called *people*, regular run of the mill people, to walk
through Israel and Judah, and later the Roman Empire, and to preach
the Word of God, also to *live* the Word of God (as Hosea and his
marriage to Gomer, Moses leading the Israelites in the desert, and
Paul calling the church to follow him as he follows Christ), in their
human way, as they were led by the Holy Spirit. *One* aspect of their
ministries is preserved for us, what was written by and about them.
It is as human as the rest of their ministries though, and however
"fixed" it may seem to be (and therefore easier to deify than a real
live person in your midst), it shares the human character of these
men, and of the rest of their ministries.
tedr
-- pnelson@uunet.uu.net (Phil Nelson) (06/03/91)
In article <May.22.00.51.57.1991.1654@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >Last saturday, I visited a friend of my fathers who was in the hospital. >He was dying from stomach cancer and had about a year left to live. >My father does not believe in God and my Mother is searching. But this >friend of my father's does believe and takes his family to church. >My mother asked me to say a prayer for him with them together. > >I was reluctant. This seemed like another one of my mom's schemes to >raise me on a platform so that she could brag about me. The last time I >met this guy was 20 years ago. But if this man is a fellow believer in Christ >then no matter what the ulterior motive, he would still appreciate someone >praying for him so I agreed. First, remember that every aspect of this situation is part of God's plan. You do not control, but God does. You're mother is not in control, but God is. I have never been in such a situation myself (probably I am not ready), I can feel some anxiousness just thinking about it. To me this means I am caught up in the cares of the world, specifically, I am concerned with my performance - will it be adequate? will I say the wrong thing? will things get 'out of control'? So, at the last part of the above paragraph, I realize that my concern for the world has caused me to forget the truth in the first part of the paragraph: That God is in control. What do I do? Pray! Ask God to go with me, in his Holy Spirit, to give me HIS words, not my words. I will thank God for giving me this test. I will thank God that what is/will/has happened is according to his wonderful plan for my life. Praise God! This is my advice to you, then. Pray! >When we got there, I didn't know what to say. It's OK. God knows what to say. >He had a life full of God's blessings. Loving wife, nice home, happy >marriage, successful career and two bright and talented daughters. >So as we prayed, I mentioned those things and thanked God that he has >given this man all that he has. See? Praise God! >What else could I have mentioned to help this man feel any better ? Be careful who you ask for words, the words you receive might be the devil's. First find God's will. This might take a lot of prayer. Then search for good words, while you are in God's will. The best place to look for good words is the Holy Bible. >I didn't want to pray for a miraculous recovery because his kind of cancer >is terminal. >And if God will rescue St. Paul but let St. Stephan be stoned, I wasn't >about to second guess his plans for this man. "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a yound man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord do not hold this sin against them," When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:51 - 7:60 >I could have prayed that his death bring greater glory to the Kingdom, >but that seemed kind of innapropriate. I know I wasn't there, but I wonder why? Stephen's certainly did. >I was at a loss. So I just thanked God for his life, unfortunately in >the past tense, and left. > >Any advice for the next time I'm in this situation ? Praise God! >- jon > / __ \ / / jm0h@ns.cc.lehigh.edu (Expires) > / / )\ ) / jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jul1991) -- Phil Nelson @ BT North America Inc. [ames|pyramid]!oliveb!tymix!pnelson There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Proverbs 16:25
burt@sequent.uucp (Burton Keeble) (06/04/91)
In article <May.26.01.59.05.1991.13527@athos.rutgers.edu> trondst@mack.uit.no (Trond S. Trondsen) writes: >In article <May.22.00.51.57.1991.1654@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >>I didn't want to pray for a miraculous recovery because his kind of cancer >>is terminal. >> (...) >> -jon > >The above quoted statement is a very proud statement. >Who says that 'this kind of cancer is terminal'? A proud human mind >(of a doctor maybe), a mind that limits God, and last but not least: >a mind that calls God a liar. The sentence above bears witness of >a human mind in unbelief, a mind that accuses God of not having done >a good enough job, that Jesus didn't accomplish all that much after >all. > Whoops, all he said was that "his kind of cancer is terminal". meaning 'terminal' from our limited *human* viewpoint. Your inference is un- qualified..........I think. 8-). (stuff deleted) >Worshipping a God which we limits to fit comfortably in our mind and >in between our intellectual knowledge (e.g. 'God did it trough >Evolution! Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, it fits. YO!') is >no better than carving him out in wood and bow down before'im. > Again, I don't agree with the condemning tone. SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT GOD Understanding God is like trying to understand Nature. We can develop tools with which we can better observe the complexity of the microscopic and macroscopic extremes of our universe. But that is all we can do; observe. We cannot really understand the miracles of the universe. So it is in trying to understand the purpose of our Creator; we can only experience his Grace and guess as to the purpose. And so, I would argue that evolutionary theory is supported by hard evidence. I would also argue that evolution is no less divine for its discovery. And most importantly, I doubt that God cares whether we believe He took 160 hours, or 160 million+ years to accomplish Creation. >HUMBLE YORSELVES, GOOFS!! To goof is human. burt@sequent.sequent.com > > >Love >Trond