jb104@prism.gatech.edu (Jamie Tarasidis) (05/24/91)
In article <May.22.00.34.52.1991.1010@athos.rutgers.edu> smithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes: >The scripture is "God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for >reproof(testing), for instruction in righteousness." Unless the Holy At the time this verse was written, the "scripture" consisted only of our Old Testament. The New Testament canon was not decided upon until later. You may believe that the same is true for the New Testament verses which you quoted, but this verse does not refer to them. It would be better to simply state your belief that the New Testament books are God-breathed, instead of substantiating it with a verse which does not apply. Jamie -- TARASIDIS, JAMIE B Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jb104 Internet: jb104@prism.gatech.edu
fuhry@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Debbie Fuhry) (05/26/91)
[Jeremy Smith cited 2 tim 3:16: "All scripture is inspired ..."
Jamie Tarasidis said that this cannot have included the NT, as at
that time, the Scripture consisted of the OT only. --clh]
In 2Peter 3:16, Peter, speaking of Paul, says, "...His letters contain some
things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people
distort, as they do the other Scriptures..."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To me this clearly says that Paul's writings (at least; probably the others
as well) were accepted as Scripture at the time they were written, and so
the above-mentioned verse would indeed apply to the New Testament canon, or
at the very least, to Paul's writings.
Debbie Fuhry
fuhry@think.comsmithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) (05/27/91)
In article <May.23.23.41.58.1991.22340@athos.rutgers.edu> jb104@prism.gatech.edu (Jamie Tarasidis) writes: >In article <May.22.00.34.52.1991.1010@athos.rutgers.edu> smithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes: >>The scripture is "God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for >>reproof(testing), for instruction in righteousness." Unless the Holy > >At the time this verse was written, the "scripture" consisted only of >our Old Testament. The New Testament canon was not decided upon until >later. You may believe that the same is true for the New Testament verses >which you quoted, but this verse does not refer to them. It would be better >to simply state your belief that the New Testament books are God-breathed, >instead of substantiating it with a verse which does not apply. > 1) In Paul's first letter to Timothy 5:18 we have: "For the scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,' and 'the labourer is worthy of his wages.'" The part about the ox is from Deuteronomy 25:4. The labourer part is a quotation from Luke 10:7 and Matthew 10:10. Thus we have Paul referring to scripture not in the Old Testament. 2) Of course i'm assuming both Old and New Testaments are God-breathed. If I assume one verse is God-breathed to prove that another is God- breathed, i'm really just assuming both are God-breathed. I do not know the difference between saying something is God-breathed and saying it is scripture. Graf8 is accepted by Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich as essentially meaning prophetic writing. I do not know of scriptural basis for differentiating between prophetic writing on the basis when it was written(i.e. before, during, or after Paul). What is the difference in assuming either New or Old Testament writings to be authentic(God-breathed)? 3) Here is some evidence that Paul's letters are God-Breathed. a) Paul is an apostle, i.e. a messenger of God. This implies that he says and does the things that God would do. Thus what Paul says, unless otherwise stated, can be considered a message from God. b) Paul considered his letters authentic and important enough to have them used as a test such that if so-called brothers ignored his letters, they should be admonished. See 2nd Thessalonians chapter 3 (similar to the reproof stated in IITimothy 3:16). Of course this is evidence only if you already assume the Bible to be the word of God. Peace and Grace to the Saints! Jeremy Smith [Note that "the laborer is worthy of his wages" may well be related to Deut 24:14. I'm not disputing it as a reference to Luke: clearly the passage is quoted in Luke's form rather than the Deut's, but it's possible that Jesus was alluding to Deut, and in that case that the quotation is called Scripture for that reason. I don't suggest this as the most likely interpretation, as I'm inclined to agree with you that Luke is being cited as "Writings", but I thought it at least worth pointing out the possibility. --clh]
chappell@antares (Glenn Chappell) (06/03/91)
In article <May.26.23.04.23.1991.24489@athos.rutgers.edu> smithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
:1) In Paul's first letter to Timothy 5:18 we have:
: "For the scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while
: he is threshing,' and 'the labourer is worthy of his wages.'"
:
: The part about the ox is from Deuteronomy 25:4. The labourer part is
: a quotation from Luke 10:7 and Matthew 10:10. Thus we have Paul
: referring to scripture not in the Old Testament.
I would add II Peter 3:16 as a reference by Peter to Paul's letters as
Scripture. (I haven't thoroughly checked the Greek out, BTW).
GGC <><grossg@patriot.rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (06/07/91)
In article <May.23.23.41.58.1991.22340@athos.rutgers.edu> jb104@prism.gatech.edu (Jamie Tarasidis) writes: >In article <May.22.00.34.52.1991.1010@athos.rutgers.edu> smithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes: >>The scripture is "God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for >>reproof(testing), for instruction in righteousness." Unless the Holy > >At the time this verse was written, the "scripture" consisted only of >our Old Testament. The New Testament canon was not decided upon until >later. You may believe that the same is true for the New Testament verses >which you quoted, but this verse does not refer to them. It would be better >to simply state your belief that the New Testament books are God-breathed, >instead of substantiating it with a verse which does not apply. Jamie: Please read 1 Timothy 5:18 and check out the references. Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 25:4, which he calls Scripture. AND, Paul in the same verse quotes as Scripture (note the verse Jerremy quoted) Luke 10:7. But this isn't the only witness that the New Testament is part of Scripture; consider the testimony of Peter in II Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother, Paul, also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Peter says the Epistles of Paul will do what the *other* Scriptures will do. Peter says ALL of Paul's Epistles are inspired, just like other scripture. So there is evidence that the New Testament was known to be Scripture before the councils to decide the canon. En Agape tou Iesou, Gene