[soc.religion.christian] justice, social justice, ``justice-love'' etc.

gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (06/04/91)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  The thing is, I've never
really seen convincing biblical arguments that social justice is as
important in the Christian scheme of things as ``making disciples.''
It's not that I'm (consciously, at least) unwilling to be convinced,
but every time I read a book about this, I feel like the author has to
stretch the scriptures.  For example, several years ago I read Yoder's
POLITICS OF JESUS.  At the time, I was really open to this book and
wanted to agree with its premise, but I found myself saying again and
again, ``I'd like to agree with that, but the biblical support for it
seems really flawed.''

One example that I find a lot in such writings is a strong emphasis on
propagating the Old Testament social order into Christan practice.
Theologically I have trouble with this.  I see Christ as the
fulfillment of the Old Testament, and in order to understand things
like the Jubilee, for example, I have to see what Christ does with the
concept.

As far as the New Testament goes, I see almost no arguments for
explicit pursuit of social change, in fact, Christ's statement that
``my kingdom is not of this world'' seems to argue against such a
course.  Certainly the gospel has implications in this area, as in
Philemon, for example, but these implications are set in the context
of the way being a Christian makes relative all social relations.  It
seems to me that trying to apply them in a broader sense, as in
efforts to modify the legal system, not only are a sort of unbelief,
but can actually lead to the same kind of oppression that occurred
after the Christianization of the Roman Empire.

Another problem I have regarding the emphasis on justice is the sort
of feeling of self-righteousness it engenders.  People who ask for
justice are assuming that they will ``win the case.''  But one of the
cornerstones of my own thinking about my life with God is that I can
not expect to stand before God in my own goodness.  Most of us can
look back on various ways we have been treated unjustly.  But if we
were to ask for reckoning, we would be like the slave who was forgiven
millions of dollars who wanted to beat the $1.98 he was owed out of
the other slave.

It is even possible that emphasis on `justice' for the oppressed can
have a bad effect on the oppressed.  Someone who focuses on the
oppressor with hatred is as dehumanized, if not more so, than the
oppressor.  This is one of the things I miss from the '60s -- the idea
that the oppressor and the oppressed person are equally enslaved, and
that freedom for one must involve freedom for the other (idealistic
though this may sound).  From a Christian perspective, the message I
find in the Gospels and Paul's letters seems to be the relativization
of social relationships that I mentioned above that makes the
oppressed person free on a different level.  And in Philemon, we
actually see the way the gospel frees both the slave and the master,
and the implications of that.

One can object that this is an excessive 1) personalization and 2)
spiritualization of the Gospel.  Again, I'd like to be convinced.

I know all this is easy for me, a future DWM, to say.  But this brings
me to another point.  There's a piece of commonplace wisdom that says,
``You can't preach the gospel to a hungry man.'' I used to think this
was true, but one day it occurred to me that there was one person who
could, namely, another hungry man.  This made me flash on the first
temptation of Christ, where he was told to make the stones into bread.
His answer was, ``MAN does not live by bread alone....''  The point
was that even (especially) in his hunger, his physical weakness, he
identified with those he came to save.  I think this is what's too
often missing, and the key to what I would see as a biblical
integration of social concern and evangelism.  Someone who wants to
preach the gospel to people has to identify with those people enough
to share their plight.  This seems to me to be the model that Christ,
and Paul, gave us (all things to all men).

I'd appreciate any comments people have on this matter.  I'm still not
completely convinced one way or the other.
--
-Fred Gilham          gilham@csl.sri.com 

[My memory of the discussions from the 60's, as well as some of the
more recent ones, is that typically the social reformers quoted the
prophets more than Jesus.  Note that the prophets were addressing
people who had social and political power and were abusing it, whereas
Jesus was addressing primarily people without such power.  (When he
did run into such people we get denunciations of the Pharisees, and
the cleansing of the Temple, both of which look rather Prophetic, I
think.)  I'm not convinced that Christians should really try to
recreate the OT theocracy, so it may not be possible to move all of
the prophets' message directly into 20th Cent. American politics.  But
it seems clear to me that to the extent that Christians have influence
on our government, that influence should be used to make justice roll
down like waters.  It seems to me that the debate needs to focus, not
on the question of whether Christians should attempt to see justice
done, but on the question of whether there are right or wrong ways to
do that.  On the relationship between bread and the gospel, while
people do not live by bread alone, you should note that Jesus fed the
crowds who came to listen to him, healed their sicknesses, etc.  It
seems to me that he cared for the whole person, physical and
spiritual.  The Christian instinct to found hospitals, to care for the
poor, etc., seems quite in keeping with Christ.  Again, the question
is not whether we should care for these needs, but at what point to
strike a balance.  --clh]

credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (06/10/91)

On a Friday afternoon when the sun is shining and I am feeling
good about the world, I want to say some good things publicly
about soc.religion.christian -- in particular, I want to say how
grateful I am that it exists.  Very often (maybe not every day,
but often) I read something here that interests me, that I wouldn't
have thought of before, that expresses an idea more cogently than
I could have done it.  In extreme cases, there are even paragraphs
here that I know will permanently change some aspect of my belief
or understanding.

One of them appeared today, from the cursor of our moderator,
Hedrick of Rutgers, who comes in for occasional criticism and 
probably nowhere near enough praise.  I would like him to know
that his knowledge and patience and wisdom, to say nothing of the
hours of work that are obviously involved, are much appreciated,
and that they do some good.

Today's treasure came in this moderatorial note:

>[My memory of the discussions from the 60's, as well as some of the
>more recent ones, is that typically the social reformers quoted the
>prophets more than Jesus.  Note that the prophets were addressing
>people who had social and political power and were abusing it, whereas
>Jesus was addressing primarily people without such power.  (When he
>did run into such people we get denunciations of the Pharisees, and
>the cleansing of the Temple, both of which look rather Prophetic, I
>think.)  . . .
>--clh]

I wish I'd said that.

Other insights have come from other posters; I won't name specific
names, because there are things I can learn from almost anybody who
posts here, but certainly there are names I especially rejoice to see
in the headers.

I think it might be useful if others who have had the same experience,
learning something here that becomes a part of their view of the world,
would take a moment to say so.

Thank you all!

Chris