ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (06/07/91)
hi.
a question.
if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his
character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good)
and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil,
whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been
good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could
he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it?
thanks for your time,
ollie g
"...as you are free to live your own life,
so I am free to live mine..."allenroy@cs.pdx.edu (callen roy) (06/10/91)
ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes: >if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his >character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) >and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, >whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been >good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could >he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? > ollie g Hi Ellie: This is probably one of the most important questions any person can ask. If God is Love how can He allow evil to exist? I'll try to give an answer that makes the most sense to me. James R S Jr posted a similar question just a few days ago, and let me suggest that you read his question and my reply at that time. It will kind of set up common ground for the rest of this note. In quich summery, Lucifer had a perfect love relationship with God until he cherished envy of God and pride of his 'beauty' and position. He broke off his love relationship with God and has been ploting to take God's place ever since. This is sin and evil. But this does not explian how it could be allowed. The answer is in a four letter word--LOVE. The Bible says God is Love and that He loves us and all his Creation (including angels and perhaps other intellegent life in the Universe He created). Love is a binary relationship. All God wants is for us to love Him back. And He wants us to love Him in the same way He loves us--out of free choice. He didn't have to create us, or love us, but He did because He chose to. He did'nt want us to try to love him because of His authority--such as His omiciense, omnipotence, omnipresence. Demands from authoity simply cannot cause heartfelt love. He didn't want us to try to love Him out of fear and threats of annihlation or 'eternal torment.' It is impossible for true love to come out of fear. Love can only exist in an environment of free choice---freedom to choose to love Gon or NOT love God! That enviromnet must exist at all costs. So long as God exists, freedom of choice must exist. It existed when lucifer made his choices. It exists now as each of us makes our choice to love God or love ourselves. It will exist forever, even after the sin problem in the universe has been solved permanently. We will love God foever in the same freedom that we now enjoy. No one will ever sin again, not because we couldn't, but because everyone will know the horror that sin and evil brings. I hope this helps. Love: Allen Roy God Loves you. All He wants is for you to love Him back.
tdm7695@tamsun.tamu.edu (Thomas Moriarty) (06/10/91)
>hi. >a question. >if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his >character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) >and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, >whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been >good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could >he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? >thanks for your time, > ollie g The answer to your question comes in two parts: 1) Satan's Origin and Rebellion; 2) God's plan and purpose of the ages. In explaining the God's plan and purpose of the ages, one needs to take a bird's eye view of all 66 books of the Bible. Satan's rebellion began long before the time of Adam's temptation and fall. The angels were created long before the time of Adam. Isaiah 14 tells us that Lucifer (Hebrew for Daystar) was once God's highest angel. Ezekial 28:12 says "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect and beauty" and Ezekial 28:15 says "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you". Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God and in the process, he became God's enemy and opposer. Because Lucifer's heart was lifted up because of his beauty, Lucifer corrupted his wisdom for the sake of his splendor according to Ezekial 28:17. The Hebrew word for "accuser" is Satan. Satan carried away one-third of the angels. Today, one-third of the angels obey Satan and two-thirds of the angels obey God. Should God be blamed for Satan's rebellion? It is a matter of who do you believe. Either you believe Satan's propaganda or you believe God's word about this matter written in Ezekial 28 and Isaiah 14. God gave Satan and all of the other angels a free will. God was not so narrow-minded as to place any restrictions on the angels before Satan's rebellion. Ezekial 28:17 says that Satan's rebellion originated because Satan was so absolutely perfect in wisdom and beauty. God should not be blamed for the matter of making Lucifer perfect in wisdom and beauty and for putting him in such a marvelous and wonderful place described in Ezekial 28. The Bible shows us that Satan's nature is that of a liar and slanderer. Throughout the Bible, Satan comes in to accuse and slander God before men and the result is that men have propagated lies, accusations, and slander against God. Bible scholars have determined that from the time of Adam until the present day is about 6,000 years and at most 10,000 years. In Ezekial chapter 28, Ezekial speaks concerning the King of Tyre as a type and picture of Satan. Is Ezekial speaking to the King of Tyre or to Satan in Ezekial 28? Actually, he is really speaking to both simultaneously. Based on Isaiah 14, Isaiah 45:16, and Ezekial 28, one can conclude that the creation of the angels and Satan's rebellion must have occurred many millions, and perhaps billions of years prior to the first day mentioned in Genesis chapter 1. For more information on the above point, I recommend reading G.H. Pember's "The Earth's Earliest Ages" written in 1888 and Watchman Nee's "The Mystery of Creation" written in 1920. The Bible does not tell us how long a period of time elapsed between the time of the creation of the angels to the rebellion of Satan. Neither does it tells us how a long a period of time elapsed from the time of Satan's rebellion until the first day mentioned in Genesis 1. Many Christians think that the seven days in Genesis 1 are seven days of creation but actually they are seven days of restoration and further creation. Based on the bounds of Scriptures, one can say that the angels were created millions of years prior to the time of Adam's temptation in the Garden of Eden. Why did God allow Satan to tempt Adam? Why does God continue to allow Satan to tempt and harass man today? The answer is that God wants man to search out after him. Satan has caused a background of darkness, ugliness, strife, hatred, and confusion. The United States today is experiencing a period of great moral degradation. God did not cause this moral degradation but Satan, the fallen angels, and the demons have caused it. A dark situation such as this gives God the opportunity to show himself and to show us what kind of God he is. Without such a dark and perverse situation caused by Satan, there would be no need for man to turn to God. Mike Warnke is an ex-Satanist who eventually saw the light and became a Christian. Mike practiced sorcery, witchcraft, and all kinds of different satanic rituals. He became so exceedingly advanced in the knowledge and practice of Satanism that he was invited to an elite meeting of the greatest and most advanced Satanic practitioners in the USA. While attending this meeting, he had an experience of seeing Satan face to face! He was horrified by the evilness and perverseness of Satan's nature. He became so frightened by the intense evil nature of Satan that he just had to turn away from Satan. His experience caused him to seek out God in a desperate kind of way. In answering the question: "Why does God allow Satan to tempt and harass man?", consider a black chalkboard. A black object in the background of a black chalkboard can be difficult to see. However, a white object in the background of a black chalkboard is often easy to distinguish. God uses Satan's rebellion as a means to show Himself to man in the hope that man would choose God. Revelation 5:9 mentions that God is purchasing men out of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation a holy group of people. The word "holy" means uncommon and separated and sanctified from the world. Today, God is calling out a "holy" group of people from among the world which is the church. I had a number of terrible and miserable events during my life that caused me to want to seek out after God. I believe that God sovereignly allowed Satan to perpetrate such ugly deeds in order that I would want to seek out after God. Many have asked the question: "If God is so all-powerful, kind, loving, compassionate, forgiving, generous, and caring, why did God allow Adam to be tempted in the Garden of Eden by Satan?" In one sense, God knew that Adam would commit sin before he placed Adam in the garden with the two trees. I make this statement based on Revelation 13:8 which mentions Jesus Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Also, Ephesians 3:10 mentions "According to the purpose of the ages which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord". God had a purpose in putting Adam in the Garden of Eden between the two trees which are the Tree of Life and the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. On the other hand, Genesis chapters 3 and 6 mentions that God was angry and disappointed with Adam for having disobeyed Him. God's purpose of the ages mentioned in Ephesians 3:10 is a deep and profound matter. To explain it in a completely thorough way in a single electronic mail message or forum posting is impossible. Undoubtedly, people will have questions, comments, and criticisms because it is impossible to thoroughly explain to the satisfaction of everyone on the Internet. During the present age, God allows Satan to continue to tempt, to harass, and to attack man because it serves God's purpose of the ages. Without such temptation, harassment, attacks, and slander against man by Satan, men would have no need to seek out after God in a desperate and serious kind of way. When Jesus Christ returns again to the Mount of Olives, he will come to rule over all the nations in a physical way. Today, George Bush rules over the United States in a physical way. When Christ returns, it will be Jesus Christ and not George Bush who will be reigning over the United States. He will be the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords reigning over all the nations. This administrative arrangement will last one thousand years. The second coming of Christ will marked by a very great event: the imprisonment of Satan. Satan will be put into a prison for a thousand years. Revelation 20:2 says "And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years". Eventually, the Devil will be "cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10). Then, the execution of God's judgment upon Satan and his followers will be completed. What is the church? The New Testament Greek uses the word "ekklesia" meaning the "called-out assembly". The church or the called-out assembly is separated from the matters of the world. When Jesus Christ was crucified and died on the cross, God's enemy Satan and the entire Satanic kingdom was judged by God. However, God's judgement upon Satan has not been yet carried out. In the United States, it is common for death-row inmates to wait many years after their death sentence was pronounced before the death sentence can be carried out. No competent judge would ever carry out the execution of those criminals whom he has judged to be worthy of the death penalty. A competent judge needs to carefully select qualified executioners who will carry out the death sentenced against a convicted criminal. In the same way, God is waiting for the church or "ekklesia" to rise up so He can carry out his judgement against Satan. The church is the corporate bride of Christ. The apostle Paul wrote to the church in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 12:27: "Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular". When the bride has made herself ready to be married to Christ, then the great tribulation will begin, resulting in Christ's second coming, and Satan's imprisonment. Adam's sin causing man's fall in Genesis 2 was a terrible event. But in Revelation, we see that the result is glorious! God is able to call out from the world a select group of people known as the church. Satan is defeated! Man is a weak and fragile vessel compared to the angels. For man to defeat Satan, the fallen angels, and the demons by his own efforts is very much like a tiny mouse defeating a tall giant. Through the power of the resurrection life released by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, God is able to raise a corporate group of believers known as the church on the earth today. Satan hates both Christ and the Church because it is the Church will throw Satan and the fallen angels into the lake of fire for eternity. Jesus Christ is God incarnate and God dispenses his life into all those believe in the person and work of Christ. Through the blood shed by Jesus Christ on the cross, God has "purchased men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and made them to our God a kingdom and priests" (Revelation 5:9-10). --- Tom Moriarty <tdm7695@tamsun.tamu.edu>
djdaneh@pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.10.49.1991.8344@athos.rutgers.edu> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes: >hi. >a question. >if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his >character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) >and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, >whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been >good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could >he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? Ollie, This is, of course, not a completely new question; indeed, it is *the* question, not only for Christians but for anyone who wishes to believe that the Universe is essentially good but can't deny the large amounts of evil present in it. It's generically referred to as the Problem of Evil. Christians have proposed many answers over the last two millenia. The most frequently-used, and I guess the most "correct" theologically, is often unacceptable to non-Christians and even to many Christians. The basic form of this is that "God wanted us to have Free Will; Free Will inherently contains the possibility of sin/evil." Unfortunately, this only leaves the obvious next question: "Since God is all-knowing, and therefore must have known that sin/evil would result from creating the Universe this way, God *IS* responsible for the existence of evil." The next few paragraphs are an elaboration on this which works for me; if you're not interested, please skip to the line of asterisks ("*"s), after which I'll mention a few other answers that have been proposed. By the way, this elaboration is my own and should not be considered an orthodox doctrine. I don't speak for any Church but only for myself. God, in Christian theology, is Love. What it means to "be Love" isn't always clear to us; but it *is* clear that perfect Love must have some object (beloved). Within God, we (most Christians) have located three Persons, commonly referred to as the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit), which can be described (in human terms) as the Lover, the Beloved, and Love-Itself. This forms, in my infallible :*) opinion, an adequate description of what Love is, and of what it might mean to "be Love." But this is still, in a way, limited; using theological terms, They're three Persons but a single Essence. Perfect Love needed something not Themselves to lavish Their Love upon. And, being perfect, there is no reason why they could not have created a perfect object for Their Love -- except that they *were* already a perfect object for Their own Love and any such object, created perfect, would be merely an extension (or perhaps a duplication) of Their own already-infinite Self/Selves. So They created an universe full of imperfect beings. The subtlety of this solution isn't immediately obvious; what brings it to the fore is the realization that They then offered those imperfect beings a chance to *BECOME* perfect, through the action of Their Love. We begin as we are, failed, imperfect, sinful. We are offered Their Love. And if we choose to accept it unconditionally (there is no other way to accept a perfect Love without destroying its perfection), it will work upon us, and, over time (or over Eternity), perfect us. But in becoming perfect we will not become just more of God. We can't ever be perfect from the beginning; we will be perfected beings -- and each perfected in a different way, from imperfections unique to us, so that even in being perfected we will be distinct from each other, will maintain our identity. We will become not only perfect recipients for God's Love, but also perfect lovers-worshippers of God. All that sounds kind of gooshy and boring. I suggest that it isn't; I suggest that it is the greatest adventure imaginable, that achievement of perfection surpasses any other possible happiness or thrill. But I do not know. I only hope. ******************************************************************************** Anyway, some other possible answers to the Problem that have been used by various Christians over the years. . . God allowed the Universe to contain evil to make it interesting. That is, it is a work of art. Imagine a drama millions of years long, with no villains, in which nothing bad ever happens to any of the "dramatis personae." Boring, huh? Or: There are two Gods, one good and one evil; the good God is, of course, the "real" God, but the evil one made the world of matter. Generally, this explanation is rejected as the Manichaean heresy. Or: There is no evil. Everything is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds. What we think is evil is due to the finite limits of our ability to perceive the real ramifications of phenomena; the Large View shows it to be part of some Greater Good. This is referred to as muddle-headed optimism:*). There are many other answers, and most of them boil down to variations on the "Free Will" issue. Certainly, most of the best do. I hope this helps. Best, He asks "How does it feel to be such a freak?" And he laughs as he hands you a bone, Yes, something is happening here And you don't know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones? -- Bob Dylan The Roach
iwilliam@us.oracle.com (Ian Williams) (06/10/91)
hi.
a question.
if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his
character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good)
and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil,
whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been
good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could
he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it?
thanks for your time,
ollie g
----
Good question ollie..
The answer is that God created the Angels (satan was one of them, in fact
many theologists think he was the second in command after the God Head) with
a free will, just as he created man with a free will... God desires beings
that will worship him out of their love respect admiration etc, but also
out of their free will.... If we did not have this will then God would
not get any glory out of robots praising him...
satan abused this free will and his PRIDE took the better of him.. He was
the second in command but he wanted it all.. he wanted to be exalted higher
than God and this caused his fall.. God did not cause him to Sin, in fact
i'm sure this was the saddest day in heaven, satan gave in to his own desires
and pride and hence sin came into existance..
so God did not create evil, evil came into being when satan went against
God and tried to go higher...
--
----------------------+----------------------------------+-------------------
Ian Williams <>< | Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com |I don't speak for
Oracle Systems | Phone : +61 8 239 3900 |them, and they don't
Adelaide, Australia | |speak for me.. jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.10.49.1991.8344@athos.rutgers.edu> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes:
if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his
character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good)
and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil,
whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been
good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could
he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it?
Angels, like men, have two primary faculties, intellect and will. The
proper object of the intellect is the truth, of the will, good. With
our intellects we know what is true, with our wills, we do what is good.
Creatures are only a sort of limited reflection of the perfections of
God. Whatever good there is in us, or an angel, is there because God
put it there.
God can only put so much goodness into a creature, because otherwise He
would be able to make another God: clearly impossible. This is where
the answer to your question lies.
Satan's fall was possible because he didn't have a perfect will. He was
only a creature. It is the nature of a created will that it is
inherently possible for it to fail to choose to do what is good. And
that's what Satan did.
A being that can only choose good is inherently superior to one that can
choose good or evil. Because choosing evil is inherently irrational, a
misuse and corruption of one's highest faculties. God is a being that
can only choose good. Creatures are beings that can choose good or
evil, because they are inherently inferior to God.mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.10.49.1991.8344@athos.rutgers.edu> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes: >hi. >a question. >if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his >character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) >and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, >whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been >good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could >he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? My beliefs run as follows - G-d, as the creator, must in some way express every attribute in creation, otherwise where would it come from? This does not mean that G-d is, by any means, evil or unloving. What it *does* mean is that G-d does not fit into our conventional framework of classifying actions. G-d is the essence of creation, and as such, exhibits attributes of both mercy and justice. Why is it so hard to also characterize him as containing both evil and good - as long as we recognize that he is not specifically either of these - that he is merely the primal essence out of which they were created? >thanks for your time, > ollie g That didn't take *too* much time :-)... James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.10.49.1991.8344@athos.rutgers.edu>, ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes: > hi. > a question. > if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his > character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) > and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, > whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been > good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could > he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? > Tough question, indeed! Recently, however, I was reading Dorothy L. Sayers's _The Mind of the Maker_ (New York: Harper and Row, 1979) -- a wonderful book which would probably interest every Christian artist -- and she puts forth one of the most comprehensible answers to the problem I've ever encountered. I'm going to take the risk of quoting a few relevant paragraphs from the chapter "Maker of All Things -- Maker of Ill Things" (95-107). To forestall flamage, I wish to emphasize that these quotations do not represent Sayers' entire argument, and if anybody wants to quarrel with them, I suggest they read the chapter -- or, preferably, the whole book (it's short) -- first. Anyway: "Shakespeare writes _Hamlet_. That act of creation enriches the world with a new category of Being, namely: _Hamlet_. But simultaneously it enriches the world with a new category of Not-Being, namely: Not-Hamlet. Everything other than _Hamlet_, to the farthest bounds of the universe, acquires in addition to its former characteristics, the characteristic of being Not-Hamlet; the whole of the past immediately and automatically becomes Not-Hamlet. . . . Arguing along these lines, we may make an attempt to tackle the definition of Evil as the deprivation or negation of the the Good. If Evil belongs to the category of Not-Being, then two things follow. First: the reality of Evil is contingent on the reality of Good; and secondly: the Good, by merely occurring, automatically and inevitably creates its corresponding Evil. In this sense, therefore, God, Creator of all things, creates Evil as well as Good, because the creation of a category of Good necessarily creates a category of Not-Good. From this point of view, those who say that God is "beyond Good and Evil" are perfectly right: He transcends both, because both are included within His Being. But the Evil has no reality except in relation to His Good; and this is what is meant by saying that Evil is negation or deprivation of Good. But we have not quite finished with our Hamlet example. So long as Not-Being remains negative or inactive, it produces no particular effects, harmful or otherwise. But if Not-Hamlet becomes associated with consciousness and will, we get something which is not merely Not-Hamlet: we get Anti-Hamlet. Someone has become aware of his Not-Hamletness, and this awareness becomes a center of will and of activity. The creative will, free and active like God, is able to will Not-Being into Being, and thus produce an Evil which is no longer negative but positive." (Sayers 101-102) ************************************************************************ * Liz Broadwell (broadwel@penndrls.upenn.edu) * * * Department of English * Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam * * The University of Pennsylvania * * ************************************************************************
mshobohm@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Matthias Hobohm) (06/11/91)
tdm7695@tamsun.tamu.edu (Thomas Moriarty) writes: .... >Mike Warnke is an ex-Satanist who eventually saw the light and became a >Christian. Mike practiced sorcery, witchcraft, and all kinds of different >satanic rituals. He became so exceedingly advanced in the knowledge and >practice of Satanism that he was invited to an elite meeting of the >greatest and most advanced Satanic practitioners in the USA. While >attending this meeting, he had an experience of seeing Satan face to face! >He was horrified by the evilness and perverseness of Satan's nature. He >became so frightened by the intense evil nature of Satan that he just had >to turn away from Satan. His experience caused him to seek out God in a >desperate kind of way. ... More on this (dangerous !) topic can be found in the book "He came to set the captatives free" by Dr. Rebecca Brown. But be sure that you really believe in Jesus if you try to read this book, otherwise you may get confused! Did anyone else read it ? any comments ? --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Matthias Hobohm (Universitaet Erlangen, Informatik, Germany) | | mshobohm@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de | -----------------------------------------------------------------------