davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (05/23/91)
The light of the gospel cannot be hidden (or taken away) from the world:
""You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot
be hidden." -- Mat 5:14 (NKJ)
Nothing can prevail against the church and its foundation:
"And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the
living God." {this statement is the foundation of the church} Jesus
answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh
and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock {Peter's
statement} I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not
prevail against it. "-- Mat 16:16-18 (NKJ)
To support my thesis that Peter's statement and not Peter is the rock and
foundation of the church:
"and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiri-
tual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." -- 1 Cor
10:4 (NKJ)
"having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone," -- Eph 2:20
(NKJ)
"And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preem-
inence." -- Col 1:18 (NKJ)
"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen
by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a
spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained
in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect,
precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are
disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected has become the
chief cornerstone," and "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense."
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were
appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy
nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of
Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once
were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained
mercy but now have obtained mercy." -- 1 Pet 2:4-10 (NKJ)
"Lo I am with you always" - never to be taken away:
"Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been
given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of
all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the
Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I
have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of
the age." Amen." -- Mat 28:18-20 (NKJ)
This world has never been without witnesses:
""who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own
ways. "Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that
He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our
hearts with food and gladness."" -- Acts 14:16,17 (NKJ)
Even if God's people are driven into the wilderness, as we see later, there
will always be God's people. No earthly temple or church or building struc-
ture is required as Jesus administers a heavenly temple built without hands.
The important thing is that even if earthly man made structures are des-
troyed, Jesus and a knowledge of His gospel will continue in the earth:
""God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of
heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. "Nor is
He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He
gives to all life, breath, and all things. "And He has made from one
blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and
has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their
habitation, "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they
might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of
us;" -- Acts 17:24-27 (NKJ)
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or princi-
palities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is
the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." --
Col 1:16- 18 (NKJ)
Jesus has, through the work of the Holy Spirit, presented salvation to "all
men", in all generations:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the
blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus
Christ," -- Titus 2:11-13 (NKJ)
"Let your conduct be without covetousness, and be content with such
things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you
nor forsake you."" -- Heb 13:5 (NKJ)
Even during the time of Noah:
"and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight peo-
ple, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of
the ungodly;" -- 2 Pet 2:5 (NKJ)
Even when God's people were driven into the wilderness, a place was prepared
for them, and they were not destroyed, as the prophecy prophecied:
"Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place
prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hun-
dred and sixty days." -- Rev 12:6 (NKJ)
"Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he per-
secuted the woman {Christian church} who gave birth to the male Child.
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly
into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and
times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the ser-
pent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that
he might cause her to be carried away by the flood." -- Rev 12:13-15
(NKJ)
Dave (David E. Buxton)
From the Silicon RainForest of the NorthWestFrank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (05/24/91)
In article <May.22.20.40.16.1991.20305@athos.rutgers.edu>, davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: >Nothing can prevail against the church and its foundation: > David, you have said a lot, and I don't have the time to respond to each one of your statements. What I will do is to respond to the general notion that the church which Jesus started has existed on this earth, uninterrupted until now. Daniel 2:44-45 ============== " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdome shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass here after: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." The prophesies of Daniel deals extensively with this issue. In Daniel's interpretation of the king's dream, the image is explained. It is well understood that the feet and the toes of the image represent the European nations which were formed after the disintegration of Rome, or in other words after Jesus Christ. As you see, there is no promise given that the "kingdom" after Christ will prevail, but it is clearly stated that the kingdom which will stand for ever will be established *after* Christ. Rev 13:7 ======== "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to over come them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations." As you can see, the apostle John did understand that Christ church was not going to preveal, but will fall. Satan is to be victorious by overcoming them. Power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations. The apostle John prophesied, that the time would come when the gospel of Jesus Christ would once again be brought to earth by the ministration of an angel: Rev 14:6 ======== "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred and toungue and people," You may notice the almost identical wordings in the two quotes from revelation, clearly indicating that one would follow the other. Also, the apostle Peter said the following, because he also understood that the church wouldn't survive. Acts 3:21 ========= "Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" Now, why is it that Peter look towards to the time of the "restitution of all things"? Why did he believed that "all things" had to be restored, if we believe that not anything was ever lost? If you notice, Peter didn't say that some things will be restored, but he said that *all* things will be restored. As you can see, things are not as simple as you would make it out to be. Clearly some passages which you have used to support your conclusion are misused. For example: "Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." -- Mat 28:18-20 (NKJ) In this passage Jesus is talking specifically to the 11 apostles. The promise that he would be with them is specifically given to them. Even so, they all died a martyr's death, with the exception, perhaps of the apostle John. His promise that he would be with them didn't save them from persecution and death. So, what does it mean that he will be with them? I believe that your use of this passage to support your conclusion that the church of Jesus Christ survived to the present day is highly questionable. Even if you disagree with my narrower interpreatation of this passage, you would agree that the promise doesn't apply to those who would apostatize. If eventually, all fall away after one or two hundred years, than there would be no one left to whom this promise would apply to. I will be going on vacation for two weeks, so unfortunately I won't be able to respond until I return. I would like to ask you to send the responses directly to me, in addition to posting it on s.r.c. this way I will be able to respond when I return. Thanks. With brotherly love, Frank
sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) (05/26/91)
Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >Rev 14:6 >======== >"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting >gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and >kindred and toungue and people," Will this "everlasting gospel" be identical to what is already being taught? a) If so, then what is the need for it? b) If not, then how do people expect to be able to recognize it at the time? Regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801
gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow) (06/05/91)
In article <May.26.02.25.35.1991.14040@athos.rutgers.edu> sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes: >Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > >>Rev 14:6 >>======== >>"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting >>gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and >>kindred and toungue and people," > >Will this "everlasting gospel" be identical to what is already being taught? > a) If so, then what is the need for it? > b) If not, then how do people expect to be able to recognize it at the time? Frank when I read that I get that there is an everlasting gospel. There are many scriptures mentioning that the word will not pass away but that the earth will. There is only one gospel and that is the gospel of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth. There has never been any other gospel there will never be any other gospel. Salvation revolves around the life death and burial and resurrection of this Jesus. From the beginning of time there has only been one gospel and that is the gospel of JEsus Christ of Nazareth. IF you want to be svaed you must believe in this gospel. Since Jesus created the angels there is only one person they would be preaching about and that is Jesus. Good common sense will lead you to this conclusion. linc james
mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mazen.mokhtar) (06/07/91)
Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >Rev 14:6 >======== >"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting >gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and >kindred and toungue and people," This is a very interesting verse. Islam teaches that all messengers including Jesus (Peace be upon him) were sent to their people only (see Mathew), except for the final message God revealed to his messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him.) The book God revealed to him (The Qur'an) is the final message sent to all humanity and will be protected by Him from being lost or changed. It is indeed intended to be the 'everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred and tongue and people.' I do not intend to start a debate, I am simply commenting on this verse. Mamdouh Maher
Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (06/11/91)
In article <Jun.5.00.02.26.1991.15781@athos.rutgers.edu>, uflorida!novavax!gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow) writes: >In article <May.26.02.25.35.1991.14040@athos.rutgers.edu> sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes: >>Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >> >>>Rev 14:6 >>>======== >>>"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting >>>gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and >>>kindred and toungue and people," >> >>Will this "everlasting gospel" be identical to what is already being taught? >> a) If so, then what is the need for it? >> b) If not, then how do people expect to be able to recognize it at the time? >Frank when I read that I get that there is an everlasting gospel. There are >many scriptures mentioning that the word will not pass away but that the >earth will. There is only one gospel and that is the gospel of our Lord and >saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth. There has never been any other gospel >there will never be any other gospel. Salvation revolves around the life >death and burial and resurrection of this Jesus. From >the beginning of time >there has only been one gospel and that is the gospel of JEsus Christ of >Nazareth. IF you want to be svaed you must believe in this gospel. Since >Jesus created the angels there is only one person they would be preaching >about and that is Jesus. Good common sense will lead you to this conclusion. >linc >james I just got back from my two weeks of vacation. I have no idea what has transpired prior to this on this subject, following my comments. If any one saved the responses, I would appreciate it if he or she would send it to me. James, I believe that you are responding to somebodies comments, not mine. I agree entirely with entirely what you have said, that there is only one gospel, and that this gospel is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is important that we do understand the gospel, and that we become obedient to it. The gospel is the means by which man can be saved. The good news is that Jesus the Son of the living God did come in the flesh, suffered and died for our sins, that by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, we might be saved. No man can be saved without obedience to the laws of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that many will rise and say that Jesus came to save us from the law. However, the fact is that we are saved through grace by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the *law* by which it is possible that man can be saved. The gospel of Jesus Christ has eternal truths, laws and ordinences. While it is true that we are saved by grace through faith, it is also true that faith is action. James said, faith is dead without action. When we speak of *faith* we speak of action, because if we have no action we have dead faith, and we need living faith to be saved. No one can say that he or she loves another if that love is not manifested in some kind of positive action. If my brother is in need of food, and I provide none, even so I could, and I tell him that I love him, what does it mean? It means that I love him not at all. I John 3:18 *********** "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in did and in truth." We need to live the gospel of Jesus Christ not in words, but in deed and in truth, in obedience to the laws of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. How can a man be saved if it doesn't know what it must do to be saved? When essential gospel truths are lost because of disodedience, there is a need for restoration. This is what the apostle Peter spoke about when he said that *all* things will have to be restored at some future date, and what the apostle John wrote about in Revelation. And this is because they knew by the Spirit of revelation that all essential gospel truths will be lost. It is possible for one to have the Bible in its possession, read it, yet not be saved at all. More than just the possession of the Bible is required. Various Christian sects has argued over the meaning of the Bible throughout the centuries, and they still do. When one hears the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, the natural question is asked, as a positive response, What must I do? Acts 2:37-38 ============ "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and bretheren, what shall we do?" "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Much has been written about the apostasy and restoration in both the Old and the New Testament. It deserves a serious consideration. It is my opinion that the apostles knew that the church will fall. If one accepts this idea, than the following questions needs to be asked: 1. When will, or did the fall accure? If not yet, than we are still loking towards the apostasy. 2. If it already accured, is it still in process? 3. If it is not in process, when did the restoration take place, and by what means? What were the things which were lost and than restored? With brotherly love, Frank