ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) (04/23/91)
< Subj: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. < I know what my former religion taught about this, basicly nothing. < I know what my current religion teaches, and I agree. < I am wondering how other interpret and incorporate this commandment into < their lives. < 1) what things should/must you do on the sabbath? < 2) what things are forbidden on that day? < What is the basis for 1 and 2? My Bible says: Col. 2:16 let no man therefore judge you in meat, drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are A SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbath day is something from the Old Testament law. In the Old Testament, man to be pleasing was require to keep the law. But in the New Testament, salvation is a matter of faith, not the keeping or rituals and ordances. The principle of the law has been abolished, but not the commandments have not. No, instead of being abolished, the New Testament uplifts the OT commandments and requires even a higher standard. Although our contact with God is not based on the principle of the law, we must still observe the uplifted commmandments of the law. At this point the Seventh Day Adventist might say, "yes, we must keep all the commandments of the law. One of these commandments is to keep the Sabbath. Based upon what you have said about not abolishing the commandments of the law, we tell you that you must keep the Sabbath." Although the commandments of the God have not been abolished, one of these commandments, the law about keeping the Sabbath, is not related to morality. Rather, it is a ritual law. A ritual is a form, a shadow, that we need no longer observe today. For example, we do not need to offer animal sacrifices, do we? Likewise, we no longer need to keep the Sabbbath. In the OT, the age of shadows, there was the need for the sacrifices, the feasts, and the keeping of the Sabbath. But today is an age of reality. Our sacrifice is not a lamb or a goat; it is Christ, the reality of all the OT sacrifices. In like manner, our rest is not a particular day; it also is Christ. because christ, the reality, is here, all the shadows are over. Because the commandment to keep the Sabbath is a ritual commandment, not a moral commandment, we are not obliged to keep it today. This commandment is not related to morality, but to the shadow, the form, which is now over. We need to be impressed concerning the principle of the law. God's dealings with His people always depend upon a principle. For example, God's dealings with Abraham were based upon God's promise. God did not give Abraham the commandments of the law; He gave him only the promise. Thus, God dealt with him according to this promise. The promise given by God to Abraham became the principle according to which God dealt with him. Later, god gave the law to the children of Isreal through Moses. The law given on Mount Sinai thus became the principle accoding to which God deal with the children of Isreal. In this way the law became the principle for God's dealings with His peopl in the Old Testament. Now in the New Testament God deals with the believers according to faith, no longer according to the law. This is fully developed in the books of Romans and Galatians. If you read these books, you will see that God deals with the believers in Christ not according to the law, but according to faith. In OT times God accepted people according to the law. If anyone wanted to be accepted by God, he had to meet the standard. But today God accepts us, not according to the law, but according to whether or not we believe in Christ. Thus, God's acceptance of us today is based on faith. ----- Robert W. Johnson Computer center, The University of Turku, Turku Finland robert@kontu.utu.fi (InterNet) robert@firien.bitnet (BITNET) The preceeding is my opinion and may not express the opinion of my employer and furthermore has nothing to do with my employment.
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (04/25/91)
In article <Apr.23.03.01.31.1991.2330@athos.rutgers.edu> ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: >The Sabbath day is something from the Old Testament law. In the Old Testament, >man to be pleasing was require to keep the law. But in the New Testament, >salvation is a matter of faith, not the keeping or rituals and ordances. >... I personally do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is the key to Christian living. But I *do* believe that there is good reason to celebrate the Sabbath whether you celebrate it on Saturday or Sunday. First off, purely practical reasons, whether you are relgious or not. In Genesis, God worked for 6 days, and then he rested. Our society today is over-stressed. Many people would benefit from setting aside one day of the week where they will not try to work, but will simply rest, spend time with their family, read a book. I am not a phsychologist, but to me it seems we'd all be a lot healthier if every seven days we sat down and relaxed. Secondly for religious reasons, many of us mean to set aside time for Bible study and regular prayer and find ourselves too busy, or too tired. One day in seven spent in contemplation would do us all good. Even if you are not religious, one day on which you will sit back and examine your life. Am I accomplishing what I wanted to accomplish? Am I happy in my life? Am I working well with mycoworkers? Am I living well with my family? With my mate? A *regular* program of self-examination is encouraged for concerns of physical health, why not mental health as well. God the Father taught us to take one day off in seven for our own good. (Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath.) My parents taught me to brush my teeth every night before going to bed for my own good. They never punished me for not doing it, they just taught me to do it, and reminded me when I forgot. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (04/25/91)
In article <Apr.23.03.01.31.1991.2330@athos.rutgers.edu>, ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: Robert Johnson uses the "any day will do" texts and comments that the Sabbath is ceremonial and so out with the shadows of the cross. In reading the OT it is clear that there were ceremonial Sabbaths that were annual Sabbath days - Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles . . . . After the cross it would clearly be a big issue of the times as to what to do about these annual Sabbath days. The Judaisers were adament that even the sacrificing must continue. Others would propose that these feast days be Christianized and others that some or all of the Sabbath days of the year be abandoned completely. These feast days clearly had sacrificing and were clearly shadows of the cross and would clearly be an issue to resolve in those days. But when we examine the NT and see the disciples and apostles keeping the Sabbath it is clear that the 7th day Sabbath was not at all at issue. Clearly the heros of the NT kept the Sabbath, even with the Gentiles. There are texts that at first glance suggest Sunday, but on closer examination they clearly point to Sabbath observance. On the other hand the 7th day Sabbath has nothing to do with sacrificing and cannot be one of the shadows of the cross; being created by Jesus at the end of creation week before Adam sinned. Before Adam sinned there was no need for the cross and symbolism of the cross to come. Jesus, having created the Sabbath, is Lord of the Sabbath and created the Sabbath for man, for his own good. Without the weekly Sabbath we bog down in our materialistic pursuits. The Sabbath is a way by which God ensures that we turn to Him seriously at least once a week. God has offered ways by which man can choose His ways vs the traditions of man, He has done this down through history - the two trees in the garden, the golden image on the plane of Babylon, etc. Did the friends of Daniel risk their lives for nothing? Else why were they exampled in the Bible? The Sabbath is clearly God's day and the day Jesus created. Examining history it is clear that Sunday came into practice after the Apostles were dead in their graves. Not so much today, but the Catholic Church used to be adamant that they alone have the authority to change the day, claiming there is no Biblical proof for Sunday, but the tradition of the church of Peter. This became very clear at the Council of Trent, that Sunday was a symbol of tradition and not at all Sola Scriptora. These old Catholic claims run headlong into Daniel 7:25 - about "think" to change times and laws. Daniel 7:25 is totally pointless prophecy if we insist that man's laws are at stake - they change constantly. But too many texts that say God and His laws do not change. Paul makes it clear that we are under grace and that law keeping does not save us. Paul also upholds the law. Jesus clearly stated - "If you love me keep my Commandments". So, turning to a parable that I posted some time ago - a parable about two husbands. The one husband saw the author of a new book being interviewed - a study showing that women would not abandon their husbands if their husbands quit celebrating their birthdays and anniversaries. So, the husband of the parable quit bothering with the days so important to his wife. What kind of Christians are we if we insist on doing nothing that is not directly linked to salvation? The Bible is clear that God eagerly desires that we keep His day. So why be like the hypothetical husband who abandons the birthdays of his wife and marriage. As one non SDA put it to me - this husband of the parable "was never saved in the first place" - but that is what he said before realizing that my parable was about the Sabbath of the Bible vs Sunday of tradition. As Jesus said ~ "In vain do they worship me, keeping the traditions of man". Perhaps it is possible to be saved while worshipping Him in vain? But why search out the theological minimums of salvation if we claim to be motivated by Love - Love for our fellow man and love for God? Why not love God in the ways that He asks in His Bible? Dave (David E. Buxton)
george@electro.com (George Reimer) (04/29/91)
In article <Apr.24.21.33.28.1991.7495@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >In article <Apr.23.03.01.31.1991.2330@athos.rutgers.edu> ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: >>The Sabbath day is something from the Old Testament law. In the Old Testament, >>man to be pleasing was require to keep the law. But in the New Testament, >>salvation is a matter of faith, not the keeping or rituals and ordances. >>... Wrong-o! The rituals and ordinaces, also known as the sacrifical law, was something that was added to the Old testament law ( Galatians 3 ) until the time of Christ's arrival as a man, at which time the sacrifical part would be completed by Christ Himself. ( Daniel 7? ) The law and the penalty of the Law still exists. To be saved you must endure to the end in the lifestyle which Christ set for us as an example. That lifestyle includes keeping the Sabbath . Not whenever either, but rather, according to God's word, on the seventh day of the week. There is absolutely no Biblical support for keeping it on any other day. > >I personally do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is the key to >Christian living. But I *do* believe that there is good reason to >celebrate the Sabbath whether you celebrate it on Saturday or Sunday. God give specific details that the sign of His people would be that they would keep His Sabbath commandment. Exodus 31. Not only that , but He commanded it to be kept forever! To be kept be whom, do you ask? By the Israelites! Not just the Jews, but all of the Israelites! ( ie. not just the Californians, but all of the Americans ) Who then are the Israelites that should keep it? The Israelites are the seed of Abraham. Who else is the seed of Abraham? Those who are Christs! ( Galatians ) > >First off, purely practical reasons, < rest, relaxation etc > >Secondly for religious reasons, < study stuff etc. > Though these benefits are true they are *not* the reason God gave us for establishing the Sabbath commandment. God said that the reason He made it was so that it would identify who His people are! > >God the Father taught us to take one day off in seven for our own good. >(Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the >Sabbath.) My parents taught me to brush my teeth every night before >going to bed for my own good. They never punished me for not doing it, >they just taught me to do it, and reminded me when I forgot. > "Tom, remember to brush your teeth before bed!" "Ah, mom, I don't wanna..." "If you don't Tom your teeth will rot right out of your mouth." "Oh..... Ok mom. I don't want that to happen. I'll brush." "Tom, remember to brush up and down." "Ah, mom, I don't wanna...." "If you don't Tom your teeth will rot right out of your mouth." "Oh..... Ok mom. I don't want that to happen. I'll brush up and down." "Tom, remember to floss." "Ah, mom........." God never said you had to either. He does say that if you do decide to keep His way of life, then there is a specfic way to do it. -- "I almost think that in certain cases yes, and in others, no....." George egroeG Reimer remieR
chappell@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Glenn Chappell) (04/29/91)
In article <Apr.24.21.33.28.1991.7495@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > >God the Father taught us to take one day off in seven for our own good. Yes! I very much agree with this article, but it only tells half the story.... The Sabbath law has two parts. The second part says to take one day off each week, and yes, this is for our own good. The first, often- overlooked part says to work the other 6 days. That is also for our own good. The person who works 7 days is not doing what God says is good for him, but then neither is the person who works 5 days and takes 2 off. (I ought to add that "work" does not necessarily mean "paid employment"). GGC <><
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (04/29/91)
In article <Apr.24.23.45.07.1991.11200@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes:
+In reading the OT it is clear that there were ceremonial Sabbaths that
+were annual Sabbath days - Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of
+Tabernacles . . . . After the cross it would clearly be a big issue of
+the times as to what to do about these annual Sabbath days. The
It would be one thing if the SDA had a 'liberal' sabbath keeping
concept. But in reality, many 'keep' sabbath with the same 'pride'
as any of the ancient Jews(one can cook but baseball definately
not). The pecking order also include vegetarianism or not. Again the
vegetarians pride themselves on how well they avoid meat. One could
grow old on vegetarian pizza.
It would seem that doing some act as sign of 'devotion' quickly
becomes a point of pride. There are some for whom such acts are
truely humble acts, but for many it is a sign of exclusion and
superiority. This seem to be rampant in Christian writing. One
cannot just be 'saved' one has to 'behave', of course what is proper
behavior has been the subject of a 2000 year debate(excluding the 1500
years of Jewish debate before). It is not enough, says the Chritian,
to have Faith, for Faith with out works is dead. And so a whole set
of 'works' is dreamed up or squeesed out of the Bible for which the
'Faithful' can act out the state of 'Grace'.
It would not be so bad if the SDA could say to the world 'here are
our beliefs', but they go further and say 'these are the truths and
everyone else is less than that'.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.eduJames.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/02/91)
In article <Apr.28.18.20.27.1991.20176@athos.rutgers.edu>, george@electro.com (George Reimer) writes: > To be saved you must endure to the end in the > lifestyle which Christ set for us as an example. > That lifestyle includes keeping the Sabbath . Then whither faith ? (or rather WITHER faith) You won't find that attitude in the Bible - "saved by faith & kept by works..." is what you seem to be saying. I couldn't agree with you less... How can you reconcile such an attitude to the assertion that we are saved by faith ALONE ??? > Not whenever either, but rather, according to God's word, > on the seventh day of the week. There is absolutely > no Biblical support for keeping it on any other day. There is plenty of Biblical support - try reading the Bible without 'illumination' from extra-scriptural sources - eg. Col 2:16 (and there-abouts) ALL of Rom 14 and use a concordance to find parallel verses. Jim.
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (05/02/91)
In article <Apr.28.18.20.27.1991.20176@athos.rutgers.edu> george@electro.com (George Reimer) writes: > To be saved you must endure to the end in the > lifestyle which Christ set for us as an example. > That lifestyle includes keeping the Sabbath . > Not whenever either, but rather, according to God's word, > on the seventh day of the week. There is absolutely > no Biblical support for keeping it on any other day. So then, is it your suggestion that in order to be saved we must celebrate the Sabbath starting in the evening on Friday and continuing through the evening on Saturday. (God will accept no other way of celebrating the Sabbath. Paul was absolutely wrong, [or we have misinterpreted him terribly.]) Jesus seems to be quite clear that the purpose of the Sabbath was being perverted. (At least it seems clear to me.) But I will grant you that I don't recall him saying, "From now on, the Sabbath must be celebrated on Sundays." (I said...) >>God the Father taught us to take one day off in seven for our own good. >>(Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the >>Sabbath.) My parents taught me to brush my teeth every night before >>going to bed for my own good. They never punished me for not doing it, >>they just taught me to do it, and reminded me when I forgot. (Follows a short skit of my Mother telling to me to brush my teeth, and also how to do it. [Which she never actually did, but hey!]) > God never said you had to either. > He does say that if you do decide to keep His way of life, then > there is a specfic way to do it. Well, now how can I argue with that? (I'm a METHODist after all.) John Wesley taught about interpretting things through four factors: Scripture Reason Tradition Experience Obviously, we on this list don't all subscribe to Wesley, (it's not soc.religion.wesleyan), however I've always found his quadrilateral to be helpful. Scripture: While it is clear that in the Old Testament the seventh day of the week was set aside for the Sabbath, Paul seems to contradict this. (My understanding of Scripture doesn't seem to lean either way.) Reason: It just doesn't seem reasonable to me that God would say, yes, you *did* worship me once in every seven days, *but* it was the wrong day, sorry, you lose. (Take this man off to burn in Hell). Tradition: For almost 2000 years now Christians have been celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday. They must have had some good reason to, should we just ignore it? Experience: It is my experience that true worship of God by true believers can take place on any day. (Perhaps God wasn't really listening on the other days, but I'm sure I've seen blessed worship services on days besides Saturday. [For instance, ordination for our Annual Conference in June will occur on a Wednesday this year, and this service is a high point of the year for most of us in the conference.]) Okay, now I can't set your own beliefs or practices by the quadrilateral, but for me, with my upbringing, it seems that Sunday is cool. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo) (05/11/91)
In article <May.2.04.38.13.1991.2455@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > >Scripture: While it is clear that in the Old Testament the seventh day >of the week was set aside for the Sabbath, Paul seems to contradict >this. (My understanding of Scripture doesn't seem to lean either way.) > Yes, Paul seems to contradict this. But if you read and reread Paul's writings resolving all the apparent contradictions to arrive at something that is consistent with and in harmony with all the scriptures plus an understanding of the quality of GOD, you will certainly find out that Paul does not contradict in any way whatsoever the commandment about the Sabbath. For who is Paul to override a commandment that comes from GOD? >Reason: It just doesn't seem reasonable to me that God would say, yes, >you *did* worship me once in every seven days, *but* it was the wrong >day, sorry, you lose. (Take this man off to burn in Hell). > It is not a question of rationality in your part or in anybody else's part. It is a question of obedience. When the Israelites were commanded not to collect manna on the Sabbath, would you then say to GOD, Oh GOD it just isn't reasonable. >Tradition: For almost 2000 years now Christians have been celebrating >the Sabbath on Sunday. They must have had some good reason to, should >we just ignore it? What is the good reason? > >quadrilateral, but for me, with my upbringing, it seems that Sunday is >cool. That which is forbidden, oftentimes is cool. -- Rey V. Paulo | Internet: rvp@csc.canberra.edu.au University of Canberra | I am not bound to please thee with my answer. AUSTRALIA | -Shylock, in "The Merchant of Venice" ------------------------------+----------------------------------------------
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/13/91)
The Old Testament Sabbath, though part of the Ten Commandemnts is part of the Law. Although God kept the first Sabbath, he did not command it before the Law, as he commanded things to Noah (which are reflected in the letter of the council at Jerusalem to the Gentiles.) And the Sabbath is not given as a commandment to the Gentiles in the New Testament, as most of the other Ten Commandments are. Rather, we Gentiles are told that we do not have to keep the Sabbaths. Paul writes in Collosions how that the curse of the law was removed with the handwriting of the old ordinances being nailed to the cross. Paul wrote, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Collosions 2:16-17.) Notice that the Sabbath is specifically refered to. There were many sabbaths, but the primary meaning for the word was the seventh day of the week. If Paul wanted the Gentiles to keep the day, I am sure that he would have included this in his writings. Paul would have been teaching false doctrine if it were wrong not to keep the sabbath. Romans 14:5 and 6 tell me that I can choose wether to keep any day above another as my conscience leads me, 5 "One man esteemeth one day above another. Another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Every day includes from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. I am fully persuaded that I do not see one dya as holier than another, or do not need to treat any day any different from any other. But, of course, people are free to keep the Sabbath as they so choose. It is built into ROmans 14:5, adn I suppose you could see it in Collosions if you tried. The Jews were zealous adherants of the Law, and they kep the Sabbath, I am sure. They were the first Christians who preached the Gospel that spread into the whole world. In light of these New Testament Scriptures, can you explain to me why I as a Christian, and a Gentile at that, should keep this particular facet of the law of Moses?
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (05/14/91)
In article <May.10.22.56.56.1991.26597@athos.rutgers.edu> rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo) writes: >In article <May.2.04.38.13.1991.2455@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake [That's me!]) writes: >>Tradition: For almost 2000 years now Christians have been celebrating >>the Sabbath on Sunday. They must have had some good reason to, should >>we just ignore it? > >What is the good reason? We celebrate Jesus' resurrection on Easter Sunday of course. And each Sunday we once again celebrate his resurrection. One possiblity from scripture: John 20:19-29 First we have the appearance of Jesus to the 11 (minus Thomas.) Thomas of course says he won't believe that Jesus has risen unless he sees for himself. One week later, (apparantly Sunday again) all of the disciples including Thomas have gathered again, and Jesus appears again. As I read it, 1: The disciples were gathering one week after Easter (on Sunday?) 2: Jesus appears to them both times (apparantly on Sunday). I am not trying to say that you *must* keep the Sabath on Sunday. Your keeping of the traditional Sabbath you do to the glory of God. Many other Christians have kept the Sabbath on Sunday, and through their observance they have sought to glorify God. I simply cannot fathom God denying the many saints who have chosen to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. This just does not seem consistant with the loving father revealed by Jesus, and the apostles. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton >>quadrilateral, but for me, with my upbringing, it seems that Sunday is >>cool. > >That which is forbidden, oftentimes is cool. Please pardon my use of slang. What I had intended was that the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday is acceptable.
rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo) (05/17/91)
In article <May.14.03.28.54.1991.3253@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, yes Tom, it's you) writes: > >We celebrate Jesus' resurrection on Easter Sunday of course. And each >Sunday we once again celebrate his resurrection. > If your keeping the Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection, does it mean that you don't keep the Sabbath at all? I thought Sunday-keepers believe they keep the Sabbath, only it is on another day. >One possiblity from scripture: > >John 20:19-29 > >First we have the appearance of Jesus to the 11 (minus Thomas.) Thomas >of course says he won't believe that Jesus has risen unless he sees for >himself. One week later, (apparantly Sunday again) all of the disciples >including Thomas have gathered again, and Jesus appears again. > I think there's a slight error in your reckoning of days as reckoned by the Jews. The scripture read, in the evening of the same day. To the Jews, and of course to the apostles, the day starts at 6:00 PM to 6:PM the following day, so that Sunday starts in the evening of Saturday. It is therefore but natural, that after the disciples gathered for the Sabbath (Saturday), they stayed together late in the evening (onset of Sunday) for fellowship. The gathering was just a natural after-Sabbath activity and it was even unlikely that they purposely gathered to celebrate the resurrection. And even if Jesus appeared on Sunday, does it nullify or change the commandment of GOD with regards to the keeping of the Sabbath? I don't think any rational GOD-believing human being would think so, Tom. > >I am not trying to say that you *must* keep the Sabath on Sunday. Your >keeping of the traditional Sabbath you do to the glory of God. Many >other Christians have kept the Sabbath on Sunday, and through their >observance they have sought to glorify God. The issue here is obedience. If you are well aware that the Sabbath is Saturday and GOD said you must observe the day, but you insist to do the observance on Sunday because of such and such reason, I don't think you are obeying GOD. Do you, Tom? There are a number of national holidays in your country. Are you free to appoint any day you like to observe those holidays or you conform to the days set by your government? > >I simply cannot fathom God denying the many saints who have chosen to >observe the Sabbath on Sunday. This just does not seem consistant with >the loving father revealed by Jesus, and the apostles. > I cannot also fathom. I also don't understand why in 40 years of wandering in the desert, the Jews were allowed to collect manna only from Sunday trough Friday, and not on Saturday. Maybe you have some explanation Tom. And perhaps your explanation can tell you why the Sabbath has to be on Saturday and not on any other day as anyone pleases. >Please pardon my use of slang. What I had intended was that the >observance of the Sabbath on Sunday is acceptable. According to you, maybe. But according to the scriptures, I don't think so. -- Rey V. Paulo | Internet: rvp@csc.canberra.edu.au University of Canberra | I am not bound to please thee with my answer. AUSTRALIA | -Shylock, in "The Merchant of Venice" ------------------------------+---------------------------------------------- [There are two common responses to your first question. Some people regard that the Sabbath has been moved for Christians to Sunday, and thus they apply the commandment to honor the Sabbath to Sunday. Others believe that we are not bound to celebrate the Sabbath at all, and that Sunday is the Lord's Day, a completely Christian celebration based on the Resurrection. I suspect Tom's view is the second. It's probably easier to justify a complete abandonment of the Sabbath from Paul's letters. But I think the first approach is probably more common. Presumably it is based on the general attempt to separate the Law into ceremonial and moral components, only the latter of which are binding on Christians. The concept would be that the specific day and some of the detailed laws involved in its celebration are part of the ceremonial Law, but the general principle that we are required to worship one day a week is part of the moral (or spiritual) Law. --clh]
bertsche@llnl.gov (Kirk Bertsche) (05/18/91)
I have apparently missed the first part of a discussion of the Sabbath: In article <May.14.03.28.54.1991.3253@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > I am not trying to say that you *must* keep the Sabath on Sunday. Your > keeping of the traditional Sabbath you do to the glory of God. Many > other Christians have kept the Sabbath on Sunday, and through their > observance they have sought to glorify God. I am not trying to be overly picky, but I believe much confusion can be avoided regarding the Sabbath by realizing that Sunday is *not* the Sabbath, never was, and never will be. Biblical usage of the word *Sabbath* always means Saturday. In fact, the word Sabbath is the word for Saturday (ha-shabbat in Hebrew, I believe, or al-sabt in Arabic). It is the way to refer to Saturday in these languages. To say *Sunday is our Sabbath* is like saying *Sunday is our Saturday.* (I know that many people commonly say this, but it is sloppy language.) The Sabbath and Sunday are not only distinct linguistically, but more importantly, they are distinct in their purposes. The Sabbath was set up to be a day of *rest*, in remembrance of God's rest after creation. Sunday is a day of *praise* and *celebration*, in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. This is a crucial distinction. Believers do not need to view Sunday as a day of rest. (In fact, for some of us it is a very busy day!) If we are truly believers who have not hardened our hearts, there is a Sabbath rest for us, but it is not Sunday (Heb. 4). Sunday is a day of praise and worship for our redemption through Christ, a concept foreign to the Old Testament Sabbath (it is more akin to OT sacrifices and festivals than to the Sabbath). It is interesting that New Testament believers are never told in Scripture to celebrate the Sabbath or to set aside a day of rest. When gentiles began to be converted this was not discussed; presumably this is one of the Jewish laws, like circumcision, which were *not* required of gentile converts. We celebrate Sunday largely because of the example of early believers who met on the "first day of the week" (mentioned in Acts, I believe?). I believe that we should continue to meet on Sunday, *not* on Saturday, so that we do not confuse our celebration of Christ's resurrection (even subconsciously) with the Old Testament day of rest. Kirk Bertsche (bertsche@llnl.gov) (415) 422-8139 Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory P.O. Box 808 L-397, Livermore, CA 94551-0808
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (05/19/91)
In article <May.17.03.08.49.1991.28395@athos.rutgers.edu> rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo, Hi Rey!) writes: >In article <May.14.03.28.54.1991.3253@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, yes Tom, it's you) writes: >>We celebrate Jesus' resurrection on Easter Sunday of course. And each >>Sunday we once again celebrate his resurrection. >If your keeping the Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection, does it >mean that you don't keep the Sabbath at all? I thought Sunday-keepers >believe they keep the Sabbath, only it is on another day. I don't see where celebrating the resurrection precludes celebrating the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day on which we celebrate God, and his works. One of those works is Jesus' resurrection. >I think there's a slight error in your reckoning of days as reckoned by >the Jews. The scripture read, in the evening of the same day. To the >Jews, and of course to the apostles, the day starts at 6:00 PM to 6:PM >the following day, so that Sunday starts in the evening of Saturday. >It is therefore but natural, that after the disciples gathered for the >Sabbath (Saturday), they stayed together late in the evening (onset of >Sunday) for fellowship. The gathering was just a natural after-Sabbath >activity and it was even unlikely that they purposely gathered to >celebrate the resurrection. Well, Jesus was crucified dead and buried on Friday. We are agreed on that right? If he rose on the third day, it couldn't have been Saturday! But, let's check the Gospels... Matthew 28:1 After the Sabbath, as Sunday morning was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. ... (TEV) Mark 16:2 ...Very early on Sunday morning, at sunrise, they went to the tomb. ... (TEV) Luke 24:1 Very early on Sunday morning the women went to the tomb, carrying the spices they had prepared. ... (TEV) John 20:1 Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been taken away from the entrance. ... (TEV) >...And even if Jesus appeared on Sunday, does >it nullify or change the commandment of GOD with regards to the keeping >of the Sabbath? I don't think any rational GOD-believing human being >would think so, Tom. From this I have to figure you assume I am either irrational, or that I do not believe in God. Well, both are open to question of course. >>I am not trying to say that you *must* keep the Sabath on Sunday. Your >>keeping of the traditional Sabbath you do to the glory of God. Many >>other Christians have kept the Sabbath on Sunday, and through their >>observance they have sought to glorify God. >The issue here is obedience. If you are well aware that the Sabbath >is Saturday and GOD said you must observe the day, but you insist to >do the observance on Sunday because of such and such reason, I don't >think you are obeying GOD. Do you, Tom? There are a number of national >holidays in your country. Are you free to appoint any day you like >to observe those holidays or you conform to the days set by your >government? An interesting point. A number of national holidays we don't celebrate on their traditional date. It was observed that people like a three day weekend, so a number of holidays we celebrate on a Monday, no matter when the actual date falls. As for my workplace, I get Washington's birthday off, but I don't need to take it on the day on which it is observed. (Which usually isn't his real birthday.) Actually, my employer let's me take that day to celebrate Washington's birthday just about any time I want. >I cannot also fathom. I also don't understand why in 40 years of >wandering in the desert, the Jews were allowed to collect manna only from >Sunday trough Friday, and not on Saturday. Maybe you have some explanation >Tom. And perhaps your explanation can tell you why the Sabbath has to >be on Saturday and not on any other day as anyone pleases. There are many practices of the early Jews which we no longer practice. (I've pointed out a few in previous postings.) One of my favorites deals not with the seventh day, but the seventh year. In the seventh year, the Israelites were to let the fields rest. In the sixth year, the fields would produce enough for both years. Check out Exodus 23:10,11 Leviticus 25:1-34 (Leviticus also includes the Year of Restoration. I think the year of Restoration is a great concept.) These teachings are quite clear. Do you practice them? Did Jesus countermand them? Jesus tells us that the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all you heart, and all your soul, and all your mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. These are the keys to the law. You show your love for God by keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day. I commend you. I show my love for God by keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. Will you condemn me? I personally don't feel that God will, but if he does, at least I'll be in great company. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton Mark 2:27-28 27 And Jesus concluded, "The Sabbath was made for the good of man; man was not made for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) (05/22/91)
A few months ago, i was wondering on what day of the week Jesus died. I read someone's article on here that said that he died on Wednsday. That would have put him in the tomb for four or five days by Jewish reckoning. From what I understand, any part of a day would be refered to as a day. Since Jesus was burried on Friday, Friday was one day, that night was one night, Saturday was one day, that night was the second night. Sunday morning was the third day. By our reckoning, three days and two nights. I had a problem. Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. I kept trying to figure this out. Also, Paul said that he rose on the third day. How could this be? FInally, I read part of a book by Josh McDowell. It had a quote from the Talmud and other evidence to show that "3 days and 3 nights" is an idion meaning any part of a day or night. So now I believe he died on Friday. And rose on Sunday morning.
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (05/22/91)
Tom Blake writes:
----------------------------------------
These teachings are quite clear. Do you practice them? Did Jesus
countermand them? Jesus tells us that the two greatest commandments
are to love the Lord your God with all you heart, and all your soul,
and all your mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.
These are the keys to the law. You show your love for God by keeping
the Sabbath on the seventh day. I commend you. I show my love for
God by keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. Will you condemn me? I
personally don't feel that God will, but if he does, at least I'll be
in great company.
----------------------------------------
Just to give all sides, ``I show my love for God by esteeming all days
alike.'' (E.g. Romans 14). (Perhaps I should pick a day. One day out
of seven sounds like less work.... :->).
--
-Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/23/91)
In article <May.17.03.08.49.1991.28395@athos.rutgers.edu>, rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo) writes: |> I think there's a slight error in your reckoning of days as reckoned |> by |> the Jews. The scripture read, in the evening of the same day. To |> the |> Jews, and of course to the apostles, the day starts at 6:00 PM to |> 6:PM |> the following day, so that Sunday starts in the evening of Saturday. What happened to "sunset - sunset" ? (which is what the Bible actually says and is what SDA's & Jews, etc. keep ! - 6pm - 6pm was an early mistake by E.G.White of the SDA church, which was subsequently rectified !) |> The issue here is obedience. If you are well aware that the Sabbath |> is Saturday and GOD said you must observe the day, but you insist to |> do the observance on Sunday because of such and such reason, I don't |> think you are obeying GOD. What if the reason for non-observance is because that is the way that God wants it in the Bible ??? Who then do you obey in keeping the sabbath ? Who told told you about sabbath-keeping ? Jim.
rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo) (05/23/91)
In article <May.18.22.53.01.1991.14133@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, Hi Tom!) writes: > >Well, Jesus was crucified dead and buried on Friday. We are agreed on >that right? If he rose on the third day, it couldn't have been >Saturday! But, let's check the Gospels... > >Matthew 28:1 > After the Sabbath, as Sunday morning was dawning, Mary Magdalene and >the other Mary went to look at the tomb. ... (TEV) > >Mark 16:2 > ...Very early on Sunday morning, at sunrise, they went to the tomb. >... (TEV) > >Luke 24:1 > Very early on Sunday morning the women went to the tomb, carrying the >spices they had prepared. ... (TEV) > >John 20:1 > Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magalene went >to the tomb and saw that the stone had been taken away from the >entrance. ... (TEV) > Agreed on all the above Tom. No problem. However, I got the impression from you that you presume that all the events in John 20, occured chronologically as recorded. Such understanding doesn't quite make sense to me because the Sunday evening as recorded in John 20:19 obviously refers to our Saturday evening. I say obvious because we are using the Jewish reckoning of day here. The likelihood that they used the present method of reckoning day which starts at midnight is highly improbable. You mention that some christians keep the Sabbath to glorify the LORD while other keep Sunday to glorify the LORD. This is fine with me. But my question is by keeping Sunday as a replacement of Saturday, is the LORD glorified or happy about it? We only have to conjecture here anyway, but experiences of Israel are somewhat certain that HE is not. > >There are many practices of the early Jews which we no longer practice. >(I've pointed out a few in previous postings.) One of my favorites >deals not with the seventh day, but the seventh year. In the seventh >year, the Israelites were to let the fields rest. In the sixth year, >the fields would produce enough for both years. > Unless you can show that the seventh year is the same in essence as the weekly Sabbath. >Jesus tells us that the two greatest commandments are >to love the Lord your God with all you heart, and all your soul, and all >your mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. These >are the keys to the law. You show your love for God by keeping the Tom, if you look at the 10 commandments and summarize them, it is exactly what Jesus mentioned. The 2 greatest commandments as above would cause anyone believing in these 2 commandments to keep the 10 commandments. Commandments (1-4) relate to loving GOD, while commandments 5-10 relate to loving your neighbours. >Sabbath on the seventh day. I commend you. I show my love for God by >keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. Will you condemn me? I personally don't >feel that God will, but if he does, at least I'll be in great company. > No Tom, I don't condemn you. What I want to do is to share with you the idea that keeping Sunday in place of the Sabbath is not, I believe, correct. -- Rey V. Paulo | Internet: rvp@csc.canberra.edu.au University of Canberra | I am not bound to please thee with my answer. AUSTRALIA | -Shylock, in "The Merchant of Venice" ------------------------------+----------------------------------------------
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/23/91)
In article <May.18.22.53.01.1991.14133@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >In article <May.17.03.08.49.1991.28395@athos.rutgers.edu> rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo, Hi Rey!) writes: >>In article <May.14.03.28.54.1991.3253@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, yes Tom, it's you) writes: > >There are many practices of the early Jews which we no longer practice. >(I've pointed out a few in previous postings.) One of my favorites >deals not with the seventh day, but the seventh year. In the seventh >year, the Israelites were to let the fields rest. In the sixth year, >the fields would produce enough for both years. > >Check out Exodus 23:10,11 Leviticus 25:1-34 > >(Leviticus also includes the Year of Restoration. I think the year of >Restoration is a great concept.) Me too! technical note - The Jews call it the Jubilee year. It falls every fiftieth year and a good time is had by all :-) >These teachings are quite clear. Do you practice them? Historical note - the seventh and fiftieth year were abrogated by the Rabbis because Roman taxation was becoming unbearable. > Did Jesus >countermand them? Jesus tells us that the two greatest commandments are >to love the Lord your God with all you heart, and all your soul, and all >your mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Wow, Hillel taught the same thing just a bit before Jesus :-) (Guess what, in the battle between the house of Hillel and the house of Shammai, Shammai being the one who was generally for the stricter interpretation of the law - Hillel won!) James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu ps. I hope this doesn't get taken badly, I just want to correct the common misrepresentation of the Jews as the mean, nasty people who follow the lifeless Law (none of these are true).
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (05/24/91)
In article <May.22.21.04.24.1991.20754@athos.rutgers.edu> mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: >In article <May.18.22.53.01.1991.14133@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, [That's me!]) writes: >> Did Jesus >>countermand them? Jesus tells us that the two greatest commandments are >>to love the Lord your God with all you heart, and all your soul, and all >>your mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. > >Wow, Hillel taught the same thing just a bit before Jesus :-) I do not believe Jesus made these up on the spot. Indeed, in the Gospels, Jesus, and the "Teacher of the Law" seem to be in agreement that these are indeed the two greatest commandments. In previous postings, I cited their respective sources in the Old Testament. >ps. I hope this doesn't get taken badly, I just want to correct the >common misrepresentation of the Jews as the mean, nasty people who >follow the lifeless Law (none of these are true). Well, obviously some of the Jews have misunderstood the intent of the Law, as have some Christians. It was the Jews' understanding of the Law which Jesus sought to correct, (since they were the only ones living under the law at that point). It is this picking and choosing among the laws which so bothers me. "You must obey *this* law!" "I need not obey this other law!" In this way, we strain out gnats, and swallow camels! (Never let it be said Jesus didn't have a sense of humor.) Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
jquilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) (05/26/91)
Key: KJV = King James Version
NIV = New International Version
TEV = Good News Bible (Today's English Version)
Asterisks *around* a word denote that the word was printed in itallics in the
original.
In article <May.18.01.05.30.1991.3312@athos.rutgers.edu>,
george@electro.com (George Reimer) writes:
> The curse of the law was not the Law itself
> but rather it was the death penalty demanded by the law .
I disagree. Consider:
Galatians 3:10-14
KJV: " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it
is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which
11 are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is
justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: the just shall
12 live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them
13 shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,
being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
14 hangeth upon a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the
Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the
Spirit through faith."
NIV: " All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:
"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the
11 Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law,
12 because, "The righteous shall live by faith." The law is not based on
faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by
13 them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse
for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to
the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the
promise of the Spirit."
TEV: " Those who depend on obeying the law live under a curse. For the
scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is in the
11 book of the Law is under God's curse !" Now, it is clear that no one is
put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, "Only
12 the person who is put right with God by faith shall live." But the Law
has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, "Whoever
*does* [I don't have itallics - Jim] everything the Law requires will
13 live." But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the
curse that the law brings; for the scripture says, "Anyone who is
14 hanged on a tree is under God's curse." Christ did this in order that the
blessing which God promised to Abraham might be given to the Gentiles by
means of Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the Spirit
promised by God."
I think that it is more consistent with the Bible to consider that the curse
of the law is: that it must be kept perfectly and, that, we can't do.
I shall (probably) refer back to these verses later.
> The question is this. If grace pays the penalty of your past
> sins as Paul says it does, then what are you doing to avoid
> having the death penalty placed against you again?
> ( wages of sin is death )
> Do you not go to Christ, our High Priest, and ask for forgiveness
> via His payment on the cross? What would happen if you didn't?
> Can you take this grace for granted? I know what my answers are.
You exhibit an attitude of "saved by faith but kept by works".
It is unsupported by the Bible. Consider:
Romans 11:5-6
TEV: " It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God
6 has chosen because of his grace. His choice is based on his grace, not
on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people
do, then his grace would not be real grace."
NIV: " So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if
by grace then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no
longer be grace."
KJV: " Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to
6 the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no
more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
The Bible tells me that I CAN take God's grace for granted ! indeed, if I try
to do anything to improve my position with God, I only fall further away:
Galatians 5:4 (But do read the whole letter !)
NIV: " You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from
Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
TEV: " Those who try to be put right with God by obeying the Law have cut
yourselves off from Christ. You are outside God's grace."
KJV: " Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified
by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
The whole thrust of your statement is SDA doctrine (the
investigative judgement) which is not based on scripture !
For those of you not familiar with SDA doctrine, the Investigative Judgement
is a process that is said to be continuing right now: Christ is looking through
the records of everyone's lives and comparing the way that they have lived with
the Ten Commandments. This judgement is NOT based on faith. Some quotes from
the prophetess of SDAism might be appropriate here: (on the subject of the
investigative judgement)
"The law of God [the ten commandments in the context of the passage - Jim] is
the standard by which the characters and lives of men will be tested in the
judgement" (1)
"When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and
unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record
of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance." (2)
(1) Ellen G White "The Great Controversy" p. 482
(2) Ellen G White op. cit. p. 483
This is the basis for the doctrine of the investigative judgement (there is
lots more along the same lines in Ellen White's books and SDA teaching
material. SDAs interpret the OT day of atonement, etc. typologically rather
than by explicit scriptural teaching. And in the history of the group, the
Heavenly sanctuary part of the investigative judgement [which I haven't
mentioned because it's complicated and irrelevant just now] had to be invented
in order to cover [one of many] muffed prophecies - this one about the end of
the world: "The great disappointment" it is called by SDAs.)
I know what my answers are too - "I know now that I am saved
by the grace of God and my faith in Jesus, and that absolutely
nothing that I DO will EVER change that - I am secure in my
salvation by faith in Jesus"
Here is a question for every SDA:
Can you say the same, or is your salvation conditional on
sabbath-keeping etc. ????
> Let James convince you if anyone will :
> "But do you want to know, O foolish man,
> that faith without works is dead?"
Put that in context PLEASE - it *does not* in any way contradict
salvation by faith alone !!!
To help, here is a quote from "The Lion Handbook to the Bible", p.634:
*****
James 2:14-26 FAITH AND ACTIONS
"Faith that stops at words is not faith at all. Even the devil believes in God
in that way, but it won't save him from God's judgement. Faith is proved - and
develops - as we act on it. God accepted Abraham (Genisis 15:1-6; 22) and
Rahab (Joshua 2) not because they *said* they believed him, but because they
proved it by what they did. It is a good test.
VERSE 24: only by taking this right out of context can James be made to
contradict Paul (Romans 4). James is discussing the difference between real
faith and mere words; he is not saying we can earn salvation."
*****
will you disagree with this analysis after reading the context again ?
> My illumination comes from God through the Holy Spirit.
Do you mean Ellen White ? (SDA doctrine says that the Holy Spirit inspired
Ellen White to write the things she did, and asserts: "... these instructions
[Ellen White's writings, in the context of the passage - Jim], in our
understanding, are in harmony with the word of God. ..." - "SDAs Answer
Questions on Doctrine" p.93)
Or are you claiming to be a prophet yourself ? :-)
> You simply cannot support Sunday Sabbath keeping using Scripture.
Easily can, have done before ! :-)
> Even the Catholic Church acknowledges this position. Read the
> following quotations from Catholic literature.
Heard it before - What the Catholics CLAIM is irrelevant (and inaccurate) !!!
> Paul is talking about the *record of our sins*
> being nailed to the cross, not the *law*. Read it again and see if it
> doesn't make more sense! It is our sins that have been done away with.
Here is the verse in question:
Colossians 2:13-15
KJV: " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses:
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which
was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them
openly, triumphing over them in it."
NIV: " When you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your sinful
nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against
us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the
15 cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public
spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."
TEV: " You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because
you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life
14 with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; he cancelled the unfavourable
record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it
15 completely by nailing it to the cross. And on that cross Christ freed
himself from the power of the spiritual rulers and authorities;
[or: Christ stripped the spiritual rulers and authorities of their power
- this appears as a footnote in the TEV - Jim] he made a public
spectacle of them by leading them as captives in his victory procession."
As one might see, the above verses refer to the thing that was nailed to the
cross as something having: "ordinances" - KJV ; "a written code, with
regulations" - NIV ; and "binding rules" - TEV. Sins don't have any of these
things !
Also note Ephesians 2:15
TEV: " He [Jesus] abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in
order to create out of the two races one new people in union with
himself, in this way making peace."
NIV: "... by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and
regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the
two, thus making peace, ..." [the punctuation of verses in the NIV
differs here from the KJV and TEV, splitting verse 15 between two
sentences - read the NIV from verse 14-16 if you want more continuity !]
KJV: " Having abolished in his flesh the emnity, even the law of commandments
contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so
making peace;"
It seems quite obvious here - laws have been done away with.
You might like to refer to my other posting (on the sabbath also) where I
discuss the ten commandments in relation to the assertion that we MUST keep
them IF we love God and our neighbour.
> iii) Finally, verses 16 and 17 of chapter two. You might have understood by
> now that what Paul was discussing was false teachings in the Colossian
> Church and NOT the removal of God's law. More specifically, Paul is not
> discussing the abolishion of Sabbath laws, but on the contrary, he is
> *embedding* them even deeper through Christ.
>
> "Therefore let no man judge you in eating or drinking,
> or regarding feast day or a new moon or sabbaths,
> ( which are a shadow of things to come )
> but the body of Christ."
Your rendition is not quite what my Bibles say:
Colossians 2:16-17
KJV: " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
NIV: " Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with
regard to a religious festival , a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath
17 day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality,
however, is found in Christ."
TEV: " So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days
17 or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath. All such things are only a
shadow of things in the future; the reality is Christ."
I don't know where you got your quote from, but it seems VERY inaccurate.
Your assertions that we should let "the body of Christ" judge us on these
matters are simply not borne out by the scriptures - see the above (accurate,
I have double checked them !) quotations from what the Bible really says !
NOTE: the sabbath, etc. are said to be a shadow of things that WERE to come !
we can see that the thing that was to come was Jesus ! (the reality is
Christ !) and so the shadows are not needed any more !!! (we no longer
need keep rules about sabbaths, or food, or anything - we are set free
in Christ !)
Also see Hebrews 10:1
KJV: " For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very
image of these things, can never with those sacrifices which they
offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
NIV: " The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the
realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same
sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, those who draw near to
worship."
TEV: " The Jewish Law is not a full and faithful model of the real things; it
is only a faint outline of the good things to come. The same sacrifices
are offered forever, year after year. How can the Law, then, by means
of these sacrifices make perfect the people who come to God ?"
We know, as is expanded in the rest of Hebrews that Jesus is the reality, and
food laws, sacrifices, sabbaths, etc. are no longer relevant !
refer Galatians 3:23-25
TEV: " But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as
24 prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. And so the Law was
in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put
25 right with God through faith. Now that the time for faith is here, the
Law is no longer in charge of us."
KJV: " But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the
24 faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our
schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by
25 faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster."
NIV: " Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up
24 until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead
25 us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has
come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
And this means ANY law, including the ten commandments, for if the ten
commandments stand against us, then we must keep them perfectly, otherwise,
we are guilty of having broken the entire law if we fail to keep just one
little part of the ten !!!
> "If you love Me, keep my commandments"
Please refer to my other posting where this out-of-context verse is treated
more accurately !
> God created the Sabbath. It was specified to be the the seventh
> day of a seven day weekly cycle. God declared that this period of
> time was *holy*. We honor God by keeping those things holy
> which God has made holy. By what authority do you or any other
> man declare _unholy_ that which God has made holy?!
> And if you haven't and it still is holy, and you willingly profane it,
> how can you enter the Kingdom?
God created many other sabbaths and rules, none of which have actually been
"done away with", nor has a "tittle fallen from them", it's just that now,
in our union with Jesus, such matters have no claim on us, just as sin and
death have no claim on Christians ! These other sabbaths, etc. are just as
*holy* as each other - for which is the greatest commandment ?
(and we all know the answer to this one - It's *not* the decalogue, but
Love God & Love your Neighbour as yourself, and that does not mean "keep the
ten commandments" [please, no one quote John 14:15 out of context to me -
I have treated that one in another posting] it simply means what it says:
"Love God and Love your Neighbour", then you have done what the law requires
(ref my other posting, Romans 13:8-10, etc.) not "IF you love God, etc. you
MUST THEN DO what the law requires". For one may DO what the law requires, but
not love God, etc.
The above verses (and there are plenty more verses in the Bible that I have
not tapped yet) show that it is God that has done the declaring !
Read Galatians (pay particular note to chapter 3 and particular-particular note
to verses 15-20 with respect to God changing things !)
Do you claim to not profane the sabbath ?
Do you keep the sabbath perfectly, or are you just without sin ?
Either way you are in an untenable position, and, (under the SDA doctrine
that you quote) one might ask: "how can you enter the Kingdom?"
I can enter the kingdom of heaven through my faith in Jesus and the grace that
God gives to me - and I know that there is nothing that is ever going to break
that bond, ever, nothing I do, nothing I say - the fact that in the future I
will 'sin' (because I am not perfect) and perhaps not even realise that I have
done wrong (I refer here, not to sabbaths, or anything like that, but to sin
as a whole) will not in any way alter the fact that I know now that I am
saved !
Can you (or any SDA) say the same ?
(or does what you do come out in the investigative judgement, and can you
lose your salvation by not adhering to the rules that SDAism imposes ?)
> You also seem to imply that somehow the Sabbath Law was part of this
> ritualistic requirements package and therefore, also done away with.
> This is not correct. The Sabbath law existed even prior to Moses being given
> the Ten Commandments. The law of sacrifice however, was a law that was added
> because of the transgressions of the *already existing laws*. ( Galations )
This is neither accurate or correct - if some laws were pre-existant,
they all were... I'd like to see the Galatians reference !
Cain, etc. gave sacrifices to God !!!!! (if it comes to that)
Just as (you might assert) he kept the sabbath. But the sabbath did not
pre-exist as *law*, just like the sacrifice laws.
God tells us that the laws (all of them) have been done away with -
see the above verses ! It's the whole point of the NT !
(If some laws have not been 'done away' with, then we still come under the
curse of the law - we MUST keep the laws PERFECTLY ! and we can't do that so
we are cursed - and lose our salvation - Jesus dying on the cross makes no
difference, because we are severed from him in trying to keep the law, which
we must, because we are bound to do so for our salvation ! Refer to ALL
of Galatians, particularly the verses I use above !)
> You made various references to 'the rest' and used Hebrews as reference.
> I found those comments inconsistent with the scriptures.
I found your comments to be inconsistent with the scriptures myself -
you chop and change, take verses out of order AND context in your desperation
to show that Hebrews 'rest' (around Ch. 4) to show that the 'rest' is the
sabbath ! but it's not, the sabbath is just an analogy for the heavenly rest
that God's people get (ch. 3 about the 'rest' - it is the promised land !
[verse 11])
Rather than quote the Bible in verbatim-triplicate (I'm tired now ! It's
been a long day !) I'll quote "The Lion Handbook to the Bible"
*****
Hebrews $:1-13 GOD'S REST
"The parallel is made more explicit. The 'rest' God spoke of was more than
just a stable and secure life in the land he had promised. Through the
psalmist (Psalm 95), hundreds of years after Joshua's day, God was still
appealing to people to enter his rest. There is a spiritual counterpart to
the promised land, and the passport to it is faith [NOTE: *NOT* sabbath-keeping
-Jim]. We enter into God's eternal rest, his peace, as we trust him and take
him at his word (3). Salvation is his gift, not a reward for our own hard work
(10). And we cannot hope to conceal our real attitude from him."
*****
Good night,
Jim.tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) (05/26/91)
In article <May.22.20.59.15.1991.20535@athos.rutgers.edu>, rvp@softserver.canberra.edu.au (Rey Paulo, Hi Rey!) writes: |>In article <May.18.22.53.01.1991.14133@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake, Hi Tom!) writes: |>This is fine with me. But my question is by keeping Sunday as a |>replacement of Saturday, is the LORD glorified or happy about it? |>We only have to conjecture here anyway, but experiences of Israel |>are somewhat certain that HE is not. Well, in my mind these are two different questions. "Is the Lord glorified?" Yes. Through worshipping on Sunday many Christians bring glory to the Lord. (Although their actions on the other days are just as important, if not moreso.) "Is the Lord happy about it?" This as you point out is conjecture. I believe that the Lord is happy whenever we worship him, so long as we worship him sincerely. I may be wrong on this count, (God knows I've been wrong enough times in my life.) How about this, Whatever you allow on Earth will be allowed in Heaven, and whatever you disallow on Earth will be disallowed in Heaven. I will allow you to worship the Lord as you see fit, on a day which I will freely grant has the great weight of much historical precedent. Hopefully the Lord will allow me to worship him as I see fit, on a different day, which while it lacks the full weight of tradition as yours still possesses quite a good deal. Both of us can continue in spontaneous worship throughout the rest of the week. |>>There are many practices of the early Jews which we no longer practice. |>>(I've pointed out a few in previous postings.) One of my favorites |>>deals not with the seventh day, but the seventh year. In the seventh |>>year, the Israelites were to let the fields rest. In the sixth year, |>>the fields would produce enough for both years. |>Unless you can show that the seventh year is the same in essence as |>the weekly Sabbath. Well, I'll grant that they share the same theme. God worked six days, and rested on the seventh. The Israelites were called to do the same thing. And to grant the same day of rest to their servants, and animals. Giving the fields rest one day in seven is kinda meaningless, but one year in seven seems to correspond nicely. But, I don't believe your getting your 1/7 is the same as the fields getting theirs. This doesn't address the "Year of Restoration"/"Year of Jubilee". {I quoted the two greatest commandments.} |>Tom, if you look at the 10 commandments and summarize them, it is |>exactly what Jesus mentioned. The 2 greatest commandments as above |>would cause anyone believing in these 2 commandments to keep the |>10 commandments. Commandments (1-4) relate to loving GOD, while |>commandments 5-10 relate to loving your neighbours. But Jesus is quoting as saying that the Sabbath was created for the good of *man*. (Not for the good of God.) The Sabbath might also be understood from the 2 greeatest commandments as a way to love yourself, (take a rest every seven days, it'll do you good!) |>No Tom, I don't condemn you. What I want to do is to share with you |>the idea that keeping Sunday in place of the Sabbath is not, I believe, |>correct. As has been pointed out, I believe that all days are holy. My congregation worships at 11:00am Sunday morning. (In the Summer we worship at 10:00am). I don't believe that it would count against us if we met on Saturdays. But that is not our habit. I don't believe that 11:00am is sacred, that's just when we meet. We join to worship a God whom we believe to be loving, and accepting. I believe God loves us enough to accept our Sunday morning worships, and your Saturday worships. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton "Eight days a week, I lah-ah-ah-ah-ove you! Eight days a week, is not enough to show I care!"
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (05/27/91)
(Thomas Blake) writes: >> mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: >>ps. I hope this doesn't get taken badly, I just want to correct the >>common misrepresentation of the Jews as the mean, nasty people who >>follow the lifeless Law (none of these are true). >Well, obviously some of the Jews have misunderstood the intent of the >Law, as have some Christians. It was the Jews' understanding of the Law >which Jesus sought to correct, (since they were the only ones living >under the law at that point). I think what you meant to say was that Xians believe that Jews have misinterpreted the Law :-). The other makes you sound mighty condescending. Obviously the Jews don't see it that way themselves, and you can't really prove any differently. >It is this picking and choosing among the laws which so bothers me. >"You must obey *this* law!" "I need not obey this other law!" In this >way, we strain out gnats, and swallow camels! (Never let it be said >Jesus didn't have a sense of humor.) What are you talking about? I don't know of any laws that it is possible to follow today that aren't taught and followed by Orthodox Jews (and some of the other sects too!). Out of respect to this forum I have set follow-ups for this to talk.religion.misc. This discussion has been going on over there for a little while now. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu [I suspect the latter comment is directed at Christians who are claiming that we have to obey some portions of the Law. --clh]
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (05/30/91)
In article <May.26.03.13.32.1991.14654@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) writes:
+
+Well, I'll grant that they share the same theme. God worked six days, and
+rested on the seventh. The Israelites were called to do the same thing. And
I hate to break this to anyone, but each Sunday is exactly 7 days
from the last Monday. As for the Sabbath as 'The Seventh' day, this by
Jewish custom. Now that we have Christians keeping the 7th day from
Monday, we can argue about how 'well' the Sunday keepers keep their
holiday. Now if they kept it as well as the Seventh Day Observers,
there would be two days of inactivity of a secular nature.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edudavidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) (06/02/91)
In article <May.26.02.09.35.1991.13728@athos.rutgers.edu>, jquilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) writes: > . . . . . . > You exhibit an attitude of "saved by faith but kept by works". In times past I have sited a few different versions of what I call The Two Sides of the Ten Dollar Bill: Both sides ask a question and offer an answer. The first side: Q: What must I do to be saved? A: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The other side: Q: Now that I know Him and love Him, what would He have me to do. A: "If you love Me keep My Commandments. There are plenty of texts to support both sides and both have their place. I'd be glad to look them up for you. Neither side can be ignored in the NT context. There are two ways to counterfeit the $10 bill, by offering the same answer to both questions. To insist that "Just Believe" is the answer when someone loves Him and is eager to serve Him is a fraud. To insist that keeping the law is a means of salvation is blatant legalism and also a counterfeit of the Gospel. So, I do not subscribe to "saved by faith but kept by works". Rather that the works are the fruit of being grafted into the vine. If there is no fruit, then somehow the sap is not flowing. If the fruit is not genuine, then the fruit is simply stapled to the vine and not properly grafted in. And the only one who can do the grafting is Jesus. He is the one who stands knocking at my door eager to come in with broom and mop to work some more cleansing of this heart of sin. Only He is qualified. Dave (David E. Buxton)
tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) (06/02/91)
In article <May.26.23.25.14.1991.24768@athos.rutgers.edu>, mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: |> (Thomas Blake, That's Me!) wrote: |>>It is this picking and choosing among the laws which so bothers me. |>>"You must obey *this* law!" "I need not obey this other law!" In this |>>way, we strain out gnats, and swallow camels! (Never let it be said |>>Jesus didn't have a sense of humor.) |> |>What are you talking about? I don't know of any laws that it is |>possible to follow today that aren't taught and followed by Orthodox Jews |>(and some of the other sects too!). I'm afraid you have missed my point entirely. I have great respect for the "Pennsylvania Dutch" for instance. They make a concientious effort to obey even the least of the law's commands. The question is about you yourself, and me myself. I suspect that there are a number of laws which you disregard. If you choose to disregard certain laws as not being applicable to you, then I don't see how you have any right to hold another accountable for disregarding the same, (or other) laws. This other is no more of a sinner than you are. You trust that your G__ will not hold you accountable for those laws you have chosen to ignore, or those laws which you interpret differently from the Orthodox members of your faith. I hold to that same trust. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (06/04/91)
In article <Jun.2.01.27.21.1991.16306@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) writes: >In article <May.26.23.25.14.1991.24768@athos.rutgers.edu>, >mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: >|> (Thomas Blake, That's Me!) wrote: >|>>It is this picking and choosing among the laws which so bothers me. >|>>"You must obey *this* law!" "I need not obey this other law!" In this >|>>way, we strain out gnats, and swallow camels! (Never let it be said >|>>Jesus didn't have a sense of humor.) >|> >|>What are you talking about? I don't know of any laws that it is >|>possible to follow today that aren't taught and followed by Orthodox Jews >|>(and some of the other sects too!). >The question is about you yourself, and me myself. I suspect that there are >a number of laws which you disregard. I am converting to Judaism, so I am *obliged* to disregard a certain law. Besides that you'd have to point me to a specific law you think I might be disregarding... If you choose to disregard certain laws >as not being applicable to you, then I don't see how you have any right to >hold another accountable for disregarding the same, (or other) laws. If I'm disregarding any laws, I hope that someone will point it out to me so that I can correct my behaviour. Judaism *does* teach, however, that there are areas where one who acts in ignorance isn't necessarily wrong. Knowledge makes one guilty. > This >other is no more of a sinner than you are. You trust that your G__ will not >hold you accountable for those laws you have chosen to ignore, or those laws >which you interpret differently from the Orthodox members of your faith. Aaahh - now you're getting into a whole 'nuther ball o' wax that isn't for this group, and isn't for me. I don't go around saying that those who aren't Orthodox the way that I'm Orthodox are wrong. There are cases where it is merely a matter of difference in custom. There are also cases where it is a matter of ignorance. The worst cases are those who know and choose to do wrong. But I don't choose to tell every Reform or Conservative Jew I meet that they're wrong because of such and such wherever. There are those that choose to try and reach out to those people, but even they do this with respect and an honest desire to teach. In this matter I think we are agreed to some extent. Although I still would like you to show me some commandment that you believe me to be disregarding. > Tom Blake > SUNY-Binghamton James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) (06/10/91)
[This continues a discussion between Tom and James (mejicovs) about Law. Tom: >It is this picking and choosing among the laws which so bothers me. >"You must obey *this* law!" "I need not obey this other law!" In this >way, we strain out gnats, and swallow camels! This is a sort of odd discussion to be having with James, who is in the process of converting to Orthodox Judaism. He maintains that Orthodox follow all the laws that it is possible to follow today. In a later posting, James said the following: >I am converting to Judaism, so I am *obliged* to disregard a certain law. --clh] This comment has me quite confused. Which law is it that you are *obliged* to disregard? |>Besides that you'd have to point me to a specific law you think I might |>be disregarding... (* Sigh *) I have given examples before of Old Testament laws/commands which many people choose to dis-regard. Here's a few interesting ones... Exodus 21:15-17 15 "Whoever hits his father or his mother is to be put to death. 16 "Whoever kidnaps a man, either to sell him or to keep him as a slave, is to be put to death. 17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother is to be put to death. (TEV) Exodus 22:9 9 "In every case of a dispute about property, whether it involves cattle, donkeys, sheep, clothing, or any other lost object, the two men claiming the property shall be taken to the place of worship. The one whom God declares to be guilty shall pay double to the other man. (TEV) Leviticus 14:33-53 (Okay, I'm not gonna type the whole thing, it's about what to do in the case of mildew in a house.) Leviticus 15:16-18 16 When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body, and he remains unclean until evening. 17 Anything made of cloth or leather on which the semen falls must be washed, and it remains unclean until evening. 18 After sexual intercourse both the man and the woman must take a bath, and they remain unclean until evening. (TEV) Leviticus 17:10-12 10 If any Israelite or any foreigner living in the community eats meat with blood still in it, the Lord will turn against him and no longer consider him one of his people. 11 The life of every living thing is in the blood, and that is why the Lord has commanded that all blood be poured out on the altar to take away the people's sins. Blood, which is life, takes away sins. 12 That is why the Lord has told the people of Israel that neither they nor any foreigner living among them shall eat any meat with blood still in it. (TEV) Leviticus 19:19 19 "Obey my commands. Do not crossbreed domestic animals. Do not plant two kinds of seed in the same field. Do not wear clotes made of two kinds of material. (TEV) Well, I was just quickly scanning through, looking for laws. If you take the time, I'm certain you can find a number of interesting laws. (Are you keeping all of them?) I get the impression, that a number of people know how to find the laws they want to hold others to, but never seem to find the ones which they don't wish to be held to. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton [It seems like this might be better aimed at Christians who cite the Law in support of the Sabbath or whatever, but who don't keep the kosher laws, etc. Rather that at Orthodox Jews?? --clh]
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (06/11/91)
[In a discussion with Tom Blake, James (mejicovs) said >I am converting to Judaism, so I am *obliged* to disregard a certain law. which confused both Tom and me. --clh] According to Orthodox Judaism, a Gentile is obliged to *not* keep the Sabbath as per two verses that go like this "day and night they shall not rest" referring to Gentiles and "the children of Israel should guard the Sabbath and keep it". [James] >Besides that you'd have to point me to a specific law you think I might >be disregarding... [Tom] >(* Sigh *) I have given examples before of Old Testament laws/commands >which many people choose to dis-regard. > >Here's a few interesting ones... > >Exodus 21:15-17 > 15 "Whoever hits his father or his mother is to be put to death. > 16 "Whoever kidnaps a man, either to sell him or to keep him as a slave, >is to be put to death. > 17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother is to be put to death. > (TEV) All of these are in Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud. The Orthodox position on laws of this nature is to define exactly the cases that are involved. Is accidental hitting implied? How about bumping? How important is intent? These are all questions that are defined further by the Oral Law (Talmud) so that they can apply to specific instances. In most of these cases the Oral Law applies the penalty of death, etc. to one instance of this crime. Other, lesser cases, are given lesser punishment depending on the case. >Exodus 22:9 > 9 "In every case of a dispute about property, whether it involves cattle, >donkeys, sheep, clothing, or any other lost object, the two men claiming >the property shall be taken to the place of worship. The one whom God >declares to be guilty shall pay double to the other man. (TEV) What you have written as the house of worship is written as judges in my KJV translation of Exodus. To respond to that, rather than your translation - today there is no Sanhedrin. If there was a Sanhedrin appointed then this case would have to be dealt with but the point is moot in our current society. >Leviticus 14:33-53 > (Okay, I'm not gonna type the whole thing, it's about what to do in the >case of mildew in a house.) Haha - what you have written here as mildew is called "a plague of leprosy". We are unsure what this was, although it was probably something along the order of a plague that spreads by contact with objects. If you are willing to identify this plague I'll be quite happy to follow all the Biblical commandments regarding this case. >Leviticus 15:16-18 > 16 When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body, >and he remains unclean until evening. 17 Anything made of cloth or >leather on which the semen falls must be washed, and it remains unclean >until evening. 18 After sexual intercourse both the man and the woman >must take a bath, and they remain unclean until evening. (TEV) The general stance of many Orthodox on the entire body of law surrounding uncleanliness (a whole tractate in the Talmud) is that today everyone is ritually unclean because there is no Temple and no red heiffer to be purified by. Some Orthodox are strict on this matter and follow the law as you have written it. It doesn't yet apply to me as I follow the Orthodox view that masturbation is a waste of seed and I am not married, therefore I do not have sex. >Leviticus 17:10-12 > 10 If any Israelite or any foreigner living in the community eats >meat with blood still in it, the Lord will turn against him and no longer >consider him one of his people. 11 The life of every living thing is in >the blood, and that is why the Lord has commanded that all blood be >poured out on the altar to take away the people's sins. Blood, which is >life, takes away sins. 12 That is why the Lord has told the people of >Israel that neither they nor any foreigner living among them shall eat >any meat with blood still in it. (TEV) This is kosher law and the reason that Jews slaughter their meat in a special way and salt it and soak it twice. The reference to a stranger is the Hebrew word ger and is generally taken to mean one who chooses to convert. I follow laws of kashrut very strictly. >Leviticus 19:19 > 19 "Obey my commands. Do not crossbreed domestic animals. Do not >plant two kinds of seed in the same field. Do not wear clotes made >of two kinds of material. (TEV) The two kinds of material are wool and linen. Orthodox Jews do not wear clothing that contains both of these in it. Orthodox Jews also do not crossbreed animals or vegetables, as per the biblical commandment. However, we are allowed to eat crossbreeds once they have been produced by non-Jews (love those nectarines!). >Well, I was just quickly scanning through, looking for laws. If you >take the time, I'm certain you can find a number of interesting laws. >(Are you keeping all of them?) I get the impression, that a number >of people know how to find the laws they want to hold others to, but >never seem to find the ones which they don't wish to be held to. Sorry this took as long as it did. This was all directly off the top of my head. Do you have anything else you would like me to address? >[It seems like this might be better aimed at Christians who cite the >Law in support of the Sabbath or whatever, but who don't keep the >kosher laws, etc. Rather that at Orthodox Jews?? --clh] I think the justification of these people is that they can pick and choose because they do accept that Jesus has `freed' them from the law. Therefore, observance becomes a cultural, do-what's-fun approach rather than a serious effort to keep the law. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu [Based on previous discussions here I think I can confidently say that -- whatever problems I have figuring out how people decide which parts of the law to keep and which not -- it is intended as a serious effort to follow God's commands. --clh]
rb65@prism.gatech.edu (Butera, Robert J.) (06/11/91)
Oncw again we're talking about which OT laws to observe. Though I can't speak for the Jewish people (and which branch their in) the early church had to deal with the problem of Gentiles who were unfamiliar with the law. The apostles and early church elders wrote to the Gentiles about this, telling them: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." Acts 14:28-29 I could interpret this passage as meaning that this is all that I, as a Gentile, have to accept from Old Testament Law. Extending this argument, does this mean don't worry about keeping the Sabbath? Or is there New Testament references to keeping the Sabbath too? -- Robert J. Butera, Jr. Georgia Tech Research Institute Internet: rb65@prism.gatech.edu "My opinions, not Georgia Tech's"
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (06/11/91)
In article <Jun.9.14.58.50.1991.25214@athos.rutgers.edu> tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Tom Blake) writes:
+Leviticus 19:19
+ 19 "Obey my commands. Do not crossbreed domestic animals. Do not
+plant two kinds of seed in the same field. Do not wear clotes made
+of two kinds of material. (TEV)
The Diety didn't want any Jacks or Jennys in Israel. But where would
Missouri be without a mule.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu